Posted on 04/16/2011 7:28:34 PM PDT by RaceBannon
Where does the Scripture say he rose on the 'fourth day'? It says the women went to check before the dawn on the first day (which would be the fourth day, from Wednesday) and He was not in the tomb.
Christ left the tomb without the seal being broken as described when the tomb was opened and He was not inside. How do we know His transformed body could do so... well He showed doubting Thomas that His transformed body could go through a literal wall.
I suppose so :)
If your interpretation of Matthew 12:40 is correct, then He could not have risen on the third day because He was in the grave the entirety of the third day.
He would have to have risen on the fourth day if He was in the grave for three full days and nights.
But all other references to the resurrection in the New Testament specify the third day - all of which, according to you, He spent in the grave.
Your own math is wrong on this. 6PM Thursday is day one
6PM Friday is day two
6PM Saturday is day three. Jesus' tomb was found empty already at 6 AM on Sunday, 12 hours after 6PM Saturday.
Moreover, precise records of the Jewish calendar date from the days of the Sanhedrin of Yavneh, which was convened after the destruction of the Second Temple. All attempts to reconstruct the Jewish calendar for the preceding years are an imposition of rules established after the fact.
That contradicts the earlier assertion that He had to spend three full chronological days in the grave as per Matthew 12:40.
If one insists that He rose sometime on the third day, one is denying that He spent three full days in the grave.
The whole argument that the crucifixion happened on a Wednesday is predicated on the argument that there can be no partial days, that they must be full chronological days.
The traditional Friday date is predicated on the understanding that the day of the crucifixion was the first day because He was dead before that day ended, that the day following the crucifixion was the second day and that sometime on the next day - the third day - He rose.
The full chronological day argument utterly fails because the New Testament asserts - roughly ten times - that the resurrection took place not on the fourth day, after three full days of burial, but on the third day.
If Christ rose on the third day then a use of partial days is necessary. If the use of partial days is prohibited, then He could only have risen on the fourth day.
You know there is another place where 'counting' is required by those who are sealed....
Christ's flesh body was entombed on the day of Crucifixion before the sunset of the HIGH Sabbath of the Days of Unleavened Bread. And 72 hours from the sealing of the tomb would be three days and three nights.
I will place my faith into the WORDS of Christ, and not what the 'fathers' since have formulated for into their own traditions and call it Christ, like He did not know to whom and for what purposes He spoke.
wrong
Mty calculations clearly show, and I plainly state ...Did you even read it?...that anytime AFTER 6PM on Saturday, jesus would be resurrected
If 72 hours elapsed, that would mean the resurrection took place on the fourth day and not the third day, as Scripture repeatedly attests.
the words of Christ
The words of Christ in Matthew 20:19 contradict the interpretation you have presented of the words of Christ in Matthew 12:40.
Is it possible that you have erred in your interpretation of Scripture and that, contrary to your interpretation, the Lord was indeed raised on the third day, not the fourth?
Scripture tells us the resurrection occurred on the third day.
Jesus could either have been in the grave for three full days and three full nights, or He could have risen on the third day.
It is one or the other. 3 does not equal 4 under any calculation.
Oh so Christ did not know what He was saying in Matthew 12:40. Maybe we should just take this discussion to the first verse of Matthew 12 through the whole chapter, so we can capture the pure flavor of what else Christ has to say to the 'holy' fathers of the religious orders.
There is NO interpretation to be made up from Matthew 12:40 as Christ is in need of NO help in setting time. AND given what the traditions of the self established holy ones have divined, there is NO doubt in my mind that Christ knew exactly what would still be discussed all these many years later.
You are telling us that He rose on the fourth day.
That leaves us with two alternatives:
(1) When Jesus stated in Matthew 16:21 that He would be raised the third day, He was contradicting His own words in Matthew 12:40
or
(2) your interpretation of Matthew 12:40 is in error.
you didnt read it if that is what you are saying, and i explained how you were wrong, so you must not have read that, either
Filioque
As I study the Scriptures, and consider the opinions of early church fathers, contemporary scholars, and other holy men that I know, I have found that there is much in the realm of Christendom that we think we know for sure...but really don’t. Calvinism vs Arminianism or somewhere in between, Replacement, Covenantal, Dispensational, etc. 0,3 5,7,9,10,13,...1000 dispensations?, Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib, Pre-Wrath, Post-Trib, etc...
I have found well respected, God-fearing, holy men on every side of each one of these doctrinal views. They all can’t be right. So one question I started asking myself, before I proceed to spew forth my “research” and rock solid beliefs on these issues is:
“If I could bet my salvation that my doctrinal view was right on a certain issue - would I?”
I tend to keep quiet now on a lot of issues. Just for the mere fact that if I’m not THAT sure, (sure enough to bet my salvation and possibly lose it), then I don’t want to be responsible for leading others astray. Or worse, being the one traced back as responsible for a whole split in the church.
Filioque
Agreed, most certainly. And to a wicked (twisted) generation is left ONLY the sign of Jonah. Children of Light will understand... The rest can’t count to THREE.
I don’t have verse but, the jews started there day at 6 PM... so it is was a Friday, at 6 PM, it was already the sabbath and passover.
This discussion is beginning to remind me of the 8 years of the Jon Stewart media ragging President Bush IF he was willing to admit his mistakes.
My interpretation does not mean squat IF I change, whitewash or alter the WORDS of Christ. He said what He said... So given HIS WORDS the answer to what is very simple to me is that Christ was killed sometime during the 4th day of the week, or Passover DAY, the Day before the HIGH Sabbath of the Days of Unleavened Bread. His flesh body was entombed before the sun set in observance of the HIGH Sabbath of the First Day of the Days of Unleavened Bread.
The declaration Christ gave to the 'holy' fathers of the religious crowd in Matthew 12:40 did not say which days, or how much or what part of each day and night He would spend in the tomb. He said three days and three nights like Jonah.
And we know that HE was NO longer in the tomb on the first day of the week when them women came to check out the situation.
I am not going to add to or take anything away from the WORDS Christ spoke to get a 'good' Friday Crucifixion and an 'easter' Sunday rising. It is NOT there and no amount of manipulation of however, many times it says He rose, would rise, did rise on the third day, there is NO conflict with Him telling the 'holy' fathers that He would do the same as Jonah.
To be precise: The Jews started their day at the setting of the sun. The legal requirement was the witness of three stars in the heavens, as the stars begin to come out after the sun has actually set... For all intents and purposes, when the sun dipped fully behind the western horizon, that was/is the new "day". There was no "6PM".
What drives the determination of the events surrounding Yeshua's crucifixion and resurrection (nay, every single thing He did) MUST BE the Hebrew Holy Days of YHWH - Without a working knowledge of those days (the definition is more like "practices" or "rehearsals"), and of the whole of the commandments of YHWH, Christendom is as doomed as the pagans when it comes to understanding it - Which is the meaning of "the sign of Jonah." It is a prophetic statement which predicts that those *not* keeping the Torah would foul the thing up:
Yeshua knew that paganism would force passover to "Easter," and predicts that the result would leave an argument over "three days and three nights." Anyone understanding the prerequisites and customs of YHWH's Holy Days could not make those mistakes.
To wit:
After the rest of the Temple lambs were slaughtered, The last one, the PERFECT one was brought up. After that lamb was killed the High Priest would raise his hands from his sides, blood dripping from his wrists, look to heaven, and cry out in a loud voice, "It is finished!" can there be ANY disagreement with where our Redeemer was at that precise moment?
That happened in the late afternoon Wednesday, the day before Passover, which would begin at dark. The lambs were cooked in the intervening time, and when evening (not the same as even) came, the Passover Sabbath began, and the supper of lamb and bitter herbs was eaten. Yeshua was in the tomb for Passover. Thursday. Evening and morning, the 1st day.
There is an intervening day, in which the women go out to buy and prepare embalming spices, but they cannot begin the embalming process because the weekly Sabbath (Saturday) draws nigh, so this day IS Friday: Evening and morning, the 2st day.
Saturday is the Sabbath rest. Evening and morning, the 3rd day.
He MUST have arisen just prior to nightfall on the Sabbath as the High Priest MUST mark the sheaves for the First fruits offering exactly at dark on Sunday, and the First Fruits are offered Sunday morning - That is why he told Mary not to touch him when He met her just prior to dawn Sunday morning (as He had not yet ascended to His Father with the First Fruits resurrected saints).
I would highly recommend every Christian on this thread learn and DO the Torah, including observance of the Sabbath and High Days of YHWH. You don't know half the story. The Word will come alive.
And more to the point, those days are "Shadows of good things to come." Yeshua fulfilled the spring Holy Days to the very letter - can there be any doubt that he will fulfill the fall Holy Days at His returning?
1Th 5:1 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.
1Th 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.
1Th 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
1Th 5:4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.
1Th 5:5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
1Th 5:6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.
1Th 5:7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.
1Th 5:8 But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation.
1Th 5:9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,
1Th 5:10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.
1Th 5:11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.
We are to KNOW the times and seasons. We cannot know if we do not mark those times and seasons (the Holy Days of YHWH).
"Come out of her, my people!"
I’ll read this entire thread later. But this post reminded me of the “Seder” that we had at our Protestant church years ago. A Messianic Jew “preacher” (or whatever he might be called!) gave a month of Adult classes on the Seder, then we had a version of it one evening.
I don’t recall getting into the various days, but we may have. But it was amazing how the Seder fit in with Jesus (Yeshua as you and our teacher say) and history. And I have read of the fall festival. And I believe how the other major (or all?) Jewish observances were somehow identified with a memorable event in the Gospels.
Thank you for the very interesting thread!
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