A man of discernment...
Posted on 03/26/2011 12:59:03 PM PDT by Dr. Eckleburg
A man of discernment...
No, Mark. I posted several different studies. Different polls. Difference sources.
And yes, they all agreed.
Look them up.
No, Mark. I posted several different studies. Different polls. Difference sources.
Your different sites all went back to the same Landscape survey. Look it up. That is one of my objections. Another is the flawed nature of the study. Pick a scientifically accurate one and we can discuss the numbers.
I had a glass of Glenn while on vacation. SMMMOOOOOOOTTTTTHHHHH.
No, they didn’t I posted several different surveys, all independent of one another.
You still haven’t answered the question that began this idiotic round-robin.
You posted no surveys. You posted sites' links. All of your sites' links went back to the Landscape survey. All of them. You have not posted a link to a scientifically accurate survey, since all of your links go back to the Landscape survey and I have shown any number of times that the basic methodology of the Landscape survey is not scientifically accurate.
I posted the CUNY survey, which I consider to be accurate, but I am not fixed to it. If you can find a scientifically accurate survey, then post it, and we can discuss the numbers. If you simply repeat yourself, as you have been doing, and keep referring to your own references to the Landscape survey, well, I will keep pointing it out.
The saying goes: put up or shut up. My good Doctor, you have repeatedly and only put up links to a single scientifically inaccurate survey, from a small selection of sites who all point back to it. No wonder they all agree. They are using the same biased survey. Let me ask this: are you unable to find a scientifically accurate survey? Are you unwilling to find a scientifically accurate survey? A secondary question in each case would be: why?
We can do this all day long. I posted several, separate, independent studies/surveys which all came to the same conclusion -- the U.S. is 50% Protestant and 24% Roman Catholic.
You appear to be quibbling with this statistic but you've given us ZERO evidence for any other numbers.
I do appreciate your efforts, however, because they each provide me with an opportunity to once again restate the truth -- that the U.S. is 50% Protestant and 24% Roman Catholic.
I do not equate and never intimated that they were equivalent.
The Pew group is well known for its antiCatholic bias, just as most liberal groups are. Calvinist organizations are well know for their antiCatholic biases as well. I think that it is the seizing on one antiCatholic's bile by another antiCatholic group and I in no way intended to present them as equivalent or in collusion in any way.
What you stated, based upon what you knew, was that the Pew study was “I am forced to conclude that this study has been pulled from the same orifice as the collected works of Calvin and all his minions has been.” You are equating them at least in the sense that that they had little or no credibility in your eyes, while seemingly dismissing such out of hand due to source and results more than anything else.
It also seems that you yourself have invoked statistics, and your demanding standard is not shared by RCs who quote stats which show things which make Protestants look badly. And if that were overall the case, i do not think i would find RCs questioning their veracity.
Right is right and wrong is wrong. Proof is proof and wishful thinking is wishful thinking. If the good Doctor wishes to engage in grand mal seizure type behaviour in waving around a prayer hanky utilizing unsubstantiated claims in claiming victory over the Christians, then, I shall challenge those claims.
I have offered up an example scientifically accurate poll and asked her to come up with her own if she does not like that one and I have repeatedly offered to discuss data and scientifically accurate conclusions, regardless of which scientifically accurate poll she wishes to use.
I could better understand your rejection if you had substantiated your charges. From what i see Eck — in response to WpaCon who rightly claimed the Catholic Church is the largest “denomination” in the world and in America — claimed Prots outnumbered Catholics, and referenced a news report, which claimed that evangelical Protestantism was the larger religious tradition vs. Roman Catholicism, which referenced a Pew study, the figures being 51% Protestant, 26% Evangelical Protestant, and 24% Roman Catholic. The comparison of the latter two is what is problematic, as shall be seen.
In response, you dismissed the 2010 Pew study as being flawed, charging that it had no data or methodology cited, though unlike yours, the survey is easily found, and the the “Note on defining religious affiliation” is easily seen with more details, methodology and DataSets being accessible from the same main web report page.
You asserted that 2001 City University of New York (CUNY) did not have the political bias that Pew does. But the link you posted does not go to the CUNY study, but to a map (which site and map is interesting) based on Catholic missionary advocates, Glenmary Research, which i myself do reference elsewhere (and which refs the ARIS ref. below on another page). You also invoked the methodology of the CUNY study, in which they asked the respondents to self-report their religious affiliation, not from a list, thus eliminating numbers based upon church rolls (such as that of Adherents). This study showed 38% of respondents identifying as Catholics, and approx. 51% being Prots (with 25% being Baptists). Thus Catholicism would remain as the largest denomination, but not “tradition,” though Eck apparently saw the two being (wrongly) equated someplace. However, the CUNY survey only covers denominational affiliation, not theological or moral views, and its methodology is insufficient for evidencing “traditions” or subsets of groups which hold to fairly distinguishing views.
As for the Pew methodology, its numbers were not from church rolls, but were based upon self-identification, though with Protestants also being grouped into religious traditions based on their specific denomination. Thus the evangelical stats — it not being a formal denomination, but a recognized “tradition” marked by certain distinctives, (like “Pentecostal”) — were based upon what Protestant denom they ID themselves with. Again, more on that later on.
Your assertion is that Pew has an antiCatholic bias is that it is well known, the proof seemingly being based upon association with the MSM, this does not prove that the report by Pew is, or that the multitude of studies that concur with it are, and that they have a corresponding pro-evangelical bias. And who are also treated with scorn by the MSM, if not more, especially as relative to their size.
As for CUNY being unbiased, i see no proof that this public college is critically distinguishable it from the education establishment in general, which is overwhelmingly liberal the best i see indicated, if disputable. Also, the larger (35,000) extensive (45 questions) Pew study also states that the United States is on the verge of becoming a minority (presently 51%) Protestant country, though with Catholicism also decreasing (31% being born Catholic with 24% remaining so). And if bias really effects the stats, then we could expect that against both.
An assertion of bias is also weak as it supposes that negative figures on Catholics versus evangelicals would serve the liberal agenda, while an anti-Catholic agenda could just as well or be better served by targeting Roman Catholicism as the most conservative Christian group, rather than alarming Rome, possibly resulting in a reformed and more vibrant conservatism.
However, both studies confirm that Protestants outnumber Catholics in America, which concurs with every study i have ever seen. But there certainly are more Catholics here now than there were in 1800. As regards the 2001 38% versus 2010 25% Catholic figure, this variant figure needs linked information, such as sample size, from where the respondents were, etc. and more conflating studies for confirmation.
The AMERICAN RELIGIOUS IDENTIFICATION SURVEY (ARIS) of 2008, a replica of 1990 and 2001 massive studies, and which is hosted (sponsored?) by CUNY, asked all 54,461 random respondents (in English or Spanish) the same unprompted, open-ended key question: “What is your religion, if any?” The religion of the spouse/partner was also asked. If the initial answer was ‘Protestant’ or ‘Christian’ further questions were asked to probe which particular denomination. Interviewers did not prompt or offer a suggested list of potential answers.
As so large a study this resulted in over 100 unique answers, they were categorized into 12 religious traditions and smaller lists, with one list including as Catholics all those who responded that they were Roman Catholics, or Eastern Rites Catholics, and all others who used the term “Catholic” in their response. In distinction were “Other Christians,” these being composed of all non-Catholic respondents who self-identified with a religious group which claims to be Christian (Baptist, etc.) as well as any theological term that related to Christianity. This resulted in 25:1% of respondents self-Identifying themselves as Catholic, down from 26.2% in 1990, and 50.9% being “Other Christian,” down from 60% in 1990 (15.8% were Baptist; 12.9% Mainline Prot, 5% Methodist, etc.). Further questioning involved such questions as, “Do you identify as a Born Again or Evangelical Christian?,” with no definition offered of the terms or distinction made between them. In response, 44.8% of all American Christians (34% of the total national adult population), fell into the born again/evangelical, category 18.4% being Catholics. (p. 9) In a smaller study, 14 percent of Catholics described themselves as evangelical, along with 47% of Protestants, and 62% of Baptists in particular.
Only 1.6 percent of Americans called themselves atheist or agnostic, yet the percentage of Americans claiming no religion, which jumped from 8.2 in 1990 to 14.2 in 2001, has now increased to 15 percent. 90 percent of the decline of Christians comes from the non-Catholic segment of the Christian population, while most the rise in the Christian population (not percentage as a whole) occurred among those who identified only as "Christian," "Evangelical/Born Again," or "non-denominational Christian," with 38.6 percent of mainline Protestants identifying themselves as evangelical or born again. A 2004 Gallup poll of 2,003 U.S. adults reported 41% said they were born-again or evangelical, with a 2008 poll showing 22% Catholic and 55% non-Catholic Christian.
A survey i also include by the The Henry Institute, and reported by the http://www.catholicnewsagency.com/news/survey_finds_some_catholics_looking_for_a_political_home, broke down Mainline Protestants, Evangelical Protestants, and non-Hispanic Catholics into the three subgroups of traditionalists, centrists, and modernists, and found that 5.3 percent of the respondents qualified as traditionalist Catholic, 5.4 percent as centrist Catholics, and 4.9 percent of respondents are modernist Catholics. It also shows about 68 percent of traditionalist Catholics opposed gays and lesbian marriage, versus 50% of centrist Catholics and 65 percent of modernist Catholics. In the Baylor study, Catholics that indicated they were Biblical literalists (11.8%) held more conservative political views than the Catholic population in general does.
This was an extensive (in questions) 2005 Baylor Religion Survey (polling by Gallup of 1,721 American respondents, by telephone and self-administered mailed surveys), and in addition to presenting respondents to choose from a standard list of denominations, they asked respondents to give the name and the address of their place of worship. This survey found (p. 11) 21.2% Catholic, 22.1%, Mainline Protestant, with 33.6% being Evangelical Protestant by affiliation. (See list of churches on p. 9) Yet only 15 percent of the population used the precise term “Evangelical” to describe their religious identity and barely two in 100 Americans say it is the best description. Moreover, only 32.6% of Evangelical Protestant congregations and denominations referred to themselves as “Evangelical.”
The ARIS study reports 34% of American adults self-identified themselves as “Born Again or Evangelical Christians” in 2008, while Barna classifies them according to their affirmation of all of 9 basic theological factors. This latter classification results in a figure of 8% being evangelical in America, much less than when respondents are classified according to what denom they ID with, which denoms themselves are classified according to a criteria. Yet if all individuals were classified according to affirmation of all of 9 fairly distinguishing theological factors then we can reasonable expect all the conservative numbers to drop, and just as significantly. However, this method would eliminate both PINOS, CINOS and EINOS, and would allow some Catholics to be part of the evangelical category.
Those who self-identify as evangelicals consistently show more fidelity to core truths and values, whether they are classified as such due to their denominational affiliation, or affirmation of a basic theological criteria.
In conclusion, i find not warrant for impugning the integrity of the Pew report on the number of Catholics vs. Protestants, nor is the figure for evangelicals unreasonable or evidence of bias. But while the evangelical classification is a recognized and warranted tradition (as is Fundamentalism, a subset of it), due to its nature and polling methodology, numbers for it cannot be as accurate as for those who belongs to what denomination. Yet self-reporting that may not necessarily reflect what persons in denoms believe, which classifying people according to their answers to theological and moral questions can reveal, and which thus gives birth to, or substantiates distinguishing traditions, as imprecise as they may be.
And rather than showing great disparity, an overall uniformity is evidenced Catholic studies show Catholics as more liberal. If you find stats that overall show the opposite, then let me know. I have not.
More liberal in what way than what group?
Than that “tradition” called “evangelical,” under every method, which also allows distinguishing among Catholics in general and those in evangelical denoms, and among Protestants in general.
It appears that we can. You posted several different websites which all linked back to the Landscape survey through as many as 2 levels back. Your figures all agreed with each other because they all referred to the same flawed study.
Bring up a scientifically accurate study, or use the one that I found, and we can discuss numbers and trends.
Standing applause. You have pulled together a tremendous post and I congratulate you for it.
I would like to PM you with an explanation if I may.
Name them. I only saw the eventual path back to the Landscape survey in all of your links. What other surveys did you link to? Name them. Hint: the reason that they all agreed with each other is that they all used the same survey.
I posted them.
And they all says the U.S. is 50% Protestant and 24% Roman Catholic.
You appear to question these statistics. I'm not surprised.
Since you have only done it once - coming up with a single flawed study - I see your point.
I posted them.
Yup, all one survey. It's not my fault that you don't check your sources. Or do you think that sources shift in their information - much like the heart of the OPC is abandoning Calvinism and is adopting liberal Protestatism on one hand, and moving towards the conservative Catholicism on the other. Can't trust these men, can you, Dr. E.? And they all says the U.S. is 50% Protestant and 24% Roman Catholic.
The reason that they all says the same thing is that they are the same thing. I don't know if they taught logic in the schools 75 years ago, but here is some rudimentary logic for your edification and amusement.
You appear to question these statistics. I'm not surprised.
I use statistics all the time and do not question substantiated data and information. I take facts very seriously. It is your unsubstantiated claims that I take lightly.
The U.S. is 50% Protestant and 24% Roman Catholic.
THE GRADUATE CENTER
OF THE CITY UNIVERSITY OF NEW YORK
Group 1990 2001 percentage
Catholic 46,004,000 50,873,000 24.5%
Baptist 33,964,000 33,830,000 16.3%
Protestant - no denomination supplied 17,214,000 4,647,000 2.2%
Methodist/Wesleyan 14,174,000 14,150,000 6.8%
Lutheran 9,110,000 9,580,000 4.6%
Christian - no denomination supplied 8,073,000 14,190,000 6.8%
Presbyterian 4,985,000 5,596,000 2.7%
Pentecostal/Charismatic 3,191,000 4,407,000 2.1%
Episcopalian/Anglican 3,042,000 3,451,000 1.7%
Mormon/Latter-Day Saints 2,487,000 2,787,000 1.3%
Churches of Christ 1,769,000 2,503,000 1.2%
Jehovah's Witness 1,381,000 1,331,000 0.6%
Seventh-Day Adventist 668,000 724,000 0.3%
Assemblies of God 660,000 1,106,000 0.5%
Holiness/Holy 610,000 569,000 0.3%
Congregational/United Church of Christ 599,000 1,378,000 0.7%
Church of the Nazarene 549,000 544,000 0.3%
Church of God 531,000 944,000 0.5%
Orthodox (Eastern) 502,000 645,000
Evangelical 242,000 1,032,000 0.5%
Mennonite 235,000 346,000
Christian Science 214,000 194,000
Church of the Brethren 206,000 358,000
Born Again 204,000 56,000
Nondenominational 195,000 2,489,000 1.2%
Disciples of Christ 144,000 492,000
Reformed/Dutch Reform 161,000 289,000
Apostolic/New Apostolic 117,000 254,000
Quaker 67,000 217,000
Full Gospel 51,000 168,000
Christian Reform 40,000 79,000
Foursquare Gospel 28,000 70,000
Fundamentalist 27,000 61,000
Salvation Army 27,000 25,000
Independent Christian Church 25,000 71,000
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