Posted on 03/20/2011 2:34:25 PM PDT by TaraP
YET. ; )
somebody is askew here. I’m not a Dispensationalist but nowhere, nohow, do i see quix as evil and vindictive.
Baloney, scripture please.
The End is in sight?
Well not quite but it sure has esculated of recent, which by the way it has also done in the past...and then it seems to shift to slow mode for a time.
As Graham said...”I don’t know” when asked to confirm, and we really don’t. But what this should do for Christians is waken them all the more that the time is shorter every day to presenting the gospel to those who wil here and hopefully respond. These events do make people afraid and question what’s coming...we have what they really need to weather these storms.
I agree... but there’s no doubt things are esculating and “looks like” what can be expected on a massive scale. It was like that when Israel became a nation...and again during the Iraq wars...and yet God slowed this down time and again.
But I thought of this as I watched the power of the ocean sweep over Japan and it’s peoples....how will it really be when Revelations becomes a reality on this earth...and this was just one place, one Tusammi, , one Earthquake.
I watched as people ran frightened into the streets trying to avoid falling buildings...and those who ran to escape where there was no place to run to. All the while hearing the sounds of the waves crashing and eating everything in it’s path behind them. The fear they had...and most running for thier own life....few had time to think of others as the quake shook them into shock.
How will it really be ‘then’ I thought...when this was simply one event.....when many events will be accurring as this and more worldwide when the “wrath of God” becomes known to men and woman who have rejected His son and followed their own ways. Another humbling moment for me....and the reality of such a love as His to be mindful even of us.
Well Franklin mentioned that clearly....the “beginnings”...and twice when she tried to corner him he said...”I don’t know”....but was wise to mention things have esculated...because they have...that’s very true. Especially as we see the ME be positioned...very interesting there.
So what part of “As in the days of Noah, so shall it be in the days of the coming of the Son of Man...” don’t you get?
Yeah if I predict next Friday just as a whim he probably won’t show up...then again he might but not because I had any special knowledge of the event. Yet we can know the general ‘seasons’ of his coming....the book of Daniel certain gave us a clue regarding the the techincal and scientific knowledge(”knowledge shall increase”) of the times “of the end” and of the restless “traveling to and fro” of the people of that era.
I do agree with you that we’ll never know the “exact” time of his coming just like the people of Noah’s day who were just living it up until “suddenly the flood came and took them all away! That part is a clue too, since Jesus described the scene as one where folks were “eating and drinking, buying and sellling, marrying and divorcing”; another words, a time of relative peace and prosperity...a “bubble” of imternational stability as economists might use the term.
Like you, I’ve never the LB series books but knew the character’s name.
Even as a kid, I was always facinated by the Book of Revelations and in recent years have been in bible studies focused on that book.
Whatever or whenever things begin to reveal themselves,it’s good to know how it ends. The good guys win.
Yes and Amen to that one :)
I’m not a Dispensationalist but nowhere, nohow, do i see quix as evil and vindictive.
Quix's sole contribution to any conversation is to bait others into a flame war - something I am profoundly good in returning and surely nothing to be proud of since it falls under the Matthew 5:22 curse. I had enough of that dreck in the old usenet days. Let Quix answer to God for the repeated transgressions.
Asking for Quix to cease tempting is the appropriate step. Delivering Smackdown is a weakness of mine. We are told to flee temptation and evil, I struggle to abide by that. It takes an evil soul to deliberately ignore that simple request and continue to cause another to stumble. For that reason I have requested to be left alone. What is wrong about that?
q.e.d.
P-M, Tara is basing the 2018 on 1948 + 70 = 2018. That is because the bible says that the length of human life is 3 score and 10 = 70.
“This generation shall not pass” is what they base that on, the same as it was formerly based on the number “40” as the age of a generation, since some families can show family pictures of baby, parents, grand-parents, and great-grandparents....a ballpark number, very arbitrarily chosen was “40”.
Unfortunately, Tara, P-M is correct. As soon as you say you know, then that means that the word of God is wrong...because it says that “no one knows.”
Also, those who use the “this generation” scripture really have the cart before the horse. They claim that 1948 is the beginning point since that’s when Israel became a nation again. Unfortunately the scripture doesn’t say that. It says that “this generation will not pass away until ALL these things take place.”
All what things? Everything from Luke 21: 24-32; and Mark 13: 21-28; and Matthew 24: 23-41. Those are all parallel time periods.
Thanks for listening. Be sure that your “faith is not contingent on whether Jesus comes back today or in 200 years...”
Your understanding of my true character is an abiding treasure hereon.
Thx tons.
And His Grace 100 times back on ya.
AMEN! AMEN!
ABsolutely indeed.
“..the end could come in 2012 or later.” Ah HA- I got you on record now. There won’t be any escape from your words in the future.
The passage known as “Isaiah 53” actually begins at Isaiah 52:13 and includes the entire 53rd chapter of Isaiah. This passage speaks in detail of the life, suffering, and death of Messiah. (This passage is quoted below.)
Okay, lets look at all these points. The word “Messiah” never even appears in the text. If this passage were about a suffering messiah, G-d would have put the word messiah, mashiach or anointed one, in the text. From the time of Zohar, 2nd century on up (earliest known post canon thinking) there are documented cases of a belief in the corporate Israel view. Some Rabbis held to a singular person view, some held to the corporate Israel view. By the middle ages from Rashi on, it has been universally held by Rabbi’s that Isaiah 53 is about Israel, the Jewish people. None of these Rabbis ever believed the servant was G-d or divine in anyway. Some believed it referred to Hezekiah, some Jeremiah, none of them thought it was Jesus. What changed over time to shift the view to a universally held view of Israel as the servant? The Crusades, Inquisition, Expulsions, Blood Libels, Pogroms and ultimately, the holocaust, where the Jewish people were slaughtered and expelled by the tens of thousands, without cause, made it abundantly clear. And what capped it off forever was the Holocaust. If there was any doubt prior, those doubts evaporated in the gas chambers and ovens of the Nazi’s.
Next, let’s look at context. The book of Isaiah starts with strong condemnation, rebuke of Israel and then a comforting reassurance of G-d’s commitment to Israel, Israel’s redemption and the Judgment of the nations who harmed her. Isaiah 53 passage occurs as the fourth servant “song”. In the previous sections of Isaiah, Israel is described as G-ds servant, not once but many times.
Isaiah 41:8 But you, Israel, my servant, Jacob, whom I have chosen, you descendants of Abraham my friend, 9 I took you from the ends of the earth, from its farthest corners I called you. I said, ‘You are my servant’; I have chosen you and have not rejected you.
Isaiah 43:1 But now, this is what the LORD says— he who created you, Jacob, he who formed you, Israel: “Do not fear, for I have redeemed you; I have summoned you by name; you are mine. 4 Since you are precious and honored in my sight, and because I love you, I will give people in exchange for you, nations in exchange for your life. 5 Do not be afraid, for I am with you; I will bring your children from the east and gather you from the west. 10 “You are my witnesses,”(Notice the plural, not singular witness) declares the LORD, “and my servant whom I have chosen, so that you may know and believe me and understand that I am he. Before me no god was formed, nor will there be one after me.
Isaiah44 1 “But now listen, Jacob, my servant, Israel, whom I have chosen. 2 This is what the LORD says— he who made you, who formed you in the womb, and who will help you: Do not be afraid, Jacob, my servant, Jeshurun(Israel),[a] whom I have chosen.
21 Isaiah44:21 Remember these things, Jacob, for you, Israel, are my servant. I have made you, you are my servant; Israel, I will not forget you. 22 I have swept away your offenses like a cloud, your sins like the morning mist. Return to me, for I have redeemed you.”
Isaiah 45:4 4 For the sake of Jacob my servant, of Israel my chosen,
Isaiah 48…say, “The LORD has redeemed his servant Jacob.” 21 They did not thirst when he led them through the deserts; he made water flow for them from the rock;
Isaiah 49:3 3 He said to me, “You are my servant, Israel, in whom I will display my splendor.”
So, there we have a clear indication of who the servant of the LORD is, Israel, Jacob (Israel). So in context the servant, in Isaiah 41 through 49, is identified as Israel, my servant. But then we have a slight change in discussion and hence the name of the subject changes as well. Israel feels forsaken of G-d.
Isaiah 49:14 But Zion said, “The LORD has forsaken me, the Lord has forgotten me.”
Israel is now called Zion. And look at the amazing comfort that G-d gives His servant Israel, now called Zion.
15 “Can a mother forget the baby at her breast and have no compassion on the child she has borne? Though she may forget, I will not forget you! 16 See, I have engraved you on the palms of my hands; your walls are ever before me.
Wow. What a promise! Continuing:
Isaiah 51: 3 The LORD will surely comfort Zion and will look with compassion on all her ruins; he will make her deserts like Eden, her wastelands like the garden of the LORD.
I who set the heavens in place, who laid the foundations of the earth, and who say to Zion, ‘You are my people.’”
But G-d will end his affliction of Zion, Israel
21 Therefore hear this, you afflicted one(appears again in Is 53), made drunk, but not with wine. 22 This is what your Sovereign LORD says, your God, who defends his people: “See, I have taken out of your hand the cup that made you stagger; from that cup, the goblet of my wrath, you will never drink again.
Now onto Isaiah 52!
Isaiah 52:1 Awake, awake, Zion, clothe yourself with strength! Put on your garments of splendor, Jerusalem, the holy city.
Isaiah 52:4-6 makes it clear that the servant is again Israel: "For thus says the L-RD G-d, My people went down the first time to Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what have I here, says the L-RD, that My people are taken away for nothing? Those who rule over them howl, says the L-RD; and My Name continually every day is blasphemed. Therefore My people shall know My Name; therefore they shall know in that day that I am He who speaks; behold, here I am." Notice that a group of people is being spoken about (people is a collective singular here), one that was in Egypt and Assyria. Those people are Israel.
7 How beautiful on the mountains are the feet of those who bring good news, who proclaim peace, who bring good tidings, who proclaim salvation, who say to Zion, “Your God reigns!”
Here again, Zion is not an individual but the nation of Israel. And now we go into the mystery of Is 52-53 dealing with the suffering servant. So to review, Isaiah 41-49 My servant is Israel. 49-52 the servant transitions to Zion, my people. The next aspect to consider is who is talking in the text in the various sections of the suffering servant song.
• … Now, let's look at the context of Isaiah 52-53 to see if the servant is also Israel there. The two chapters are connected, and form a continuous message.
Isaiah• 52:13-14 "Indeed, My servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights. Just as the many were appalled at him--so marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, his form, beyond human semblance--just so he shall startle many nations."
In verse 13, that same people is spoken of as "My servant". G-d is telling us here that, in the end, Israel will prosper and take its rightful place in G-d's plan. But before that happens, Israel (i.e. the Jewish people) will be perceived as marred and unlike other men in appearance. We have been seen by others as demons, devils, rats, sub-human, virues. Our life to them has been cheap. The Jewish people have certainly been perceived as demonic by many, having horns and a tail. We have also be painted with enormous hooked noses and stooped backs, and perceived as having a odd, Jewish aroma. We have been painted as sacrificing Christian children to the "Devil" that controls us, and using the blood in our matzos. We have been accused of poisoning wells and desecrating hosts. Our skin has been used to make lamps, our hair to make cloth. To those who hate us, we are beyond human semblance. Many have been startled to find out we are not demons and have no horns. Finally, the only way to stuff 1.5 million children and 4.5 million adults into gas chambers and ovens is to first marred their visage beyond that of a man…into a visage that is not human.
Jesus, on the other hand, looked exactly like a man. There are no stories in the New Testament of Jesus astonishing people with his looks, with Jesus having horns, tails, and the like. This is not about Jesus, it is about Israel. Even after Jesus was scourged and hanging on the cross, all who saw him recognized him as himself. So he was not marred beyond that of a man.
• Isaiah 52:15 "Just so he shall startled many nations. Kings shall be silenced because of him, For they shall see what has not been told them, Shall behold what they never have heard."
This is now the Kings and leaders of the world speaking. We startled many nations by our very survival when they thought we should disappear, but we did not. We have startled many nations by our importance, and by our major contributions to the world in many fields, beyond our small numbers. Such a reviled people, such a small people who, in their view to this very day, should not exist anymore, will come as a big surprise to many nations, many peoples. In the future, they will be surprised when they realize their mistake, that what they have been told is wrong--we are not demons, servants of the "Devil", a fossil who should disappear, rats or evil. They will be startled when they find out we are and have indeed been G-d's servant. When they see the truth, they will indeed be speechless, silent in the face of what they have believed, what they have done.
• Isaiah 53:1 "Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the L-RD revealed?"
The arm of the L-RD is a metaphor used though out the Tanach to indicate G-d is taking direct action and for vindication. This same metaphor is used in Deuteronomy 5:15, "And remember that you were slaves in the land of Egypt, and that the L-RD your G-d brought you out from there with a mighty hand and with a stretched out arm;...". They will find the truth even if spoken by non-Jews hard to believe, hard to accept, but HaShem will vindicate us, the Jewish people.
• Isaiah 52:2 "For he grew up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness that we should look at him, there was no countenance that we should desire him."
They did not think us pleasing to look upon, but HaShem will favor us, our suffering will not endure forever. Indeed, Israel is like a trunk in arid ground, growing with the favor of HaShem. Isaiah uses the trunk metaphor (see Isaiah 6:12) to refer to the surviving remnant of Jews that will come out of Babylon purified, free from the dross of idolaters. Again, no one desired to look at us, seeing us as less than human, as ugly. Yet, before G-d, we are as a tender plant coming out of the dry bitter ground of the world. We are a light in the darkness. Corporate Israel, a singular entity, is the shoot and no one else. Jesus, for example, was not seen as ugly to look upon and gathered large crowds.
• Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised, shunned by men, a man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, he was despised, we held him of no account."
According to the NT, Jesus had large crowds of follower and was not shunned. Israel, on the other hand, certainly has been shunned. We have been kicked out of many countries, some more than once. The Romans kicked us out of our own land, renaming it, trying to make us disappear. Spain, England, Germany, France, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc. have all kicked us out. We have been shunned by men. We have been despised for many thing we have not done, and just because we are G-d's servant. The Syrian-Greeks despised us, and tried to destroy our religion, to make us worship their "gods". We have known much suffering: the rule of the Syrian-Greeks; the Roman with their forced labor, crucifixions of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and law forbidding us to learn or teach Torah; the Crusades; Inquisition; HaShoah (Holocaust); Dhimi status in Muslim countries; ghettos; expulsions; pogroms; job restrictions; slavery; etc... The ghettos were so packed that disease was a problem. In the concentration camps disease was rampant. Jesus was never shown as diseased. We have been held to be worthless, of no account by the non-Jewish world, we still are viewed in this way by many peoples and individuals. They cannot, did not, see our true face through their hate. This applies so much more to the suffering on the Jewish people at the hands of intolerant, ignorant, and bigoted people, than it ever could to Jesus.
• Isaiah 53:4 "Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, Our suffering that he endured. We accounted him plagued, smitten and afflicted by God;"
The gentile nations are speaking in the verse. The sickness was in them, not us. We have bore the result of their sickness; we have suffered and continue to suffer because of them. They believed us cursed by G-d, their own books said so as did their leaders. They took it upon themselves to make sure that we suffered the curse they thought us to be under. It was they themselves who made us suffer, through their own free will. Many Jews continue to suffer at the hands of those who view us as cursed by G-d. And notice the language of the afflicted is just like Isaiah 51:21, who was the afflicted? Zion, my people! And the cup of G-ds wrath will end, 51:22. Similar language is found in Nahum 1:1212 This is what the LORD says: “Although they have allies and are numerous, they will be destroyed and pass away. Although I have afflicted you, Judah, I will afflict you no more. G-ds afflicted is Israel.
• Isaiah 53:5-6 says "But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed. We went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the L-RD visited upon him the guilt of all of us."
The gentile nations are still speaking. Because of the sins of the non-Jews who persecuted us, we were crushed. We bore the chastisement that made many anti-Semites feel whole. The non-Jew did not treat others as they should have, straying from the Noachide law against murder. It appeared to many who arrayed themselves against the Jewish people that G-d was punishing the Jews, but it was really their own guilty actions that caused the suffering of G-d's servant Israel. Throughout the centuries when the Jews were being murdered for nothing, who was sinning? G-d NEVER gave permission to the nations to murder the Jews. The nations were sinning by their murderous hatred of the Jews. So, the Jews bore that sin of the mass murder by the nations. It is interesting to note that the word Holocaust means, “whole burnt” and was used for centuries as the term for a burnt offering.
• Isaiah 53:7 "He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, he did not open his mouth; like sheep being led to slaughter, like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her, he did not open his mouth."
Jesus cried out on the cross and held conversations with others; he opened his mouth during his trial. We were maltreated, but following the principle that if we were submissive it would all blow over and we would survive, the people would survive, we remained submissive throughout the millennia. In Nazi controlled Europe, to give a modern example, we again remained submissive, not knowing that relocation, another exile from another country like so many others before, was not all Germany had in mind. We were transported in cattle cars, like sheep to the slaughter. Like ewes who do not know they are going to be sheared, we did not know the fate that awaited us in the "relocation trains". We did not open our mouths.
• Isaiah 53:8 "By oppressive judgment he was taken away, who could describe his abode? For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my [i.e. the non Jewish speakers] people, who deserved punishment."
They oppressed us, judged us guilty, and took us away. We, the Jewish people (Israel) were taken away by oppressive judgment (blood libel trials, pogroms, crusades, inquisition, anti-Jewish laws, the Shoah). We were murdered, cut off from the land of the living, because of their sins (ie the sin of murder, etc.) by non-Jews. It is they who murder who deserved the punishment they gave us unjustly. It was those who sinned and continue to sin against us, not us, the servant of G-d, who deserves to be punished. And if Jesus was cut-off, that is NEVER a good thing, being cut-off ALWAYS refers to unrighteous people. Yes, even Daniel 9. One of the anointed is righteous, one is not. Those are two separate anointed ones.
• Isaiah 53:9 "And his grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death -- though he has done no injustice and spoken no falsehood."
The rich are often portrayed as wicked, so we are saying the same thing twice for emphasis. Israel (the Jewish people) have done nothing to merit the ill treatment we have received by the rest of the world, nonetheless, Jews were still buried in pits and mass graves. Holocaust Jews were slaughtered with Gypsies and homosexuals and shoved into pits with them. Jews were given the disrespectful burial of a wicked man. Our grave stones still removed to pave streets and latrines, still desecrated even here in America. From what I read in the NT, Jesus was given a decent burial in a nice tomb ALONE, by himself, not the disrespectful mass burial of wicked persons.
• Isaiah 53:10-12 says "But the L-RD chose to crush him by disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, and that through him the L-RD's purpose might prosper. Out of anguish he shall see it; he shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. [G-d says:] 'My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears; assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, he shall receive the multitude as his spoil. For he exposed himself to death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of many and made intercession for sinners.'"
First of all, note that the servant (Israel) will have offspring and long life. Israel as a group has had many children and a long life. Jesus had no children and was put to death by the Romans when he was fairly young. This passage cannot be referring to Jesus. Christians will say this is “spiritual” children but the word for children here in Hebrew is Zerah and it NEVER means spiritual children, only physical children. Also, if this is Jesus, G-d crushes G-d? G-d gives Himself disease? If G-d makes Himself a guilt offering He will have long life? Jesus had a short life, so must NOT have made Himself an offering for guilt. Asham or guilt offerings are for SPECIFIC sins only. That means Jesus offering would be limited to those under the category of “guilt offering”. Leviticus 5 and notice this! Lev 5:11, NO BLOOD IS REQUIRED! A flour offering atones for sin.
The nations believe that G-d was punishing us, that the L-RD "chose to crush" us "by disease". It is true that the concentration camps lead to massive disease. And Jesus was never diseased. But it was their sins that made us suffer. We are G-d's servants, a light unto the nations, our role to bring the universal laws, morality to the world. Hitler's Germany rejected G-d's seven laws for all men (genesis 9), murdering the messenger, thinking that the message made Germany weak. For their guilt we suffered. The Jewish people has offered little resistance to the actions of our persecutors. We have born the brunt of their guilty actions. Yet, we are still devoted to HaShem and are fulfilling our role to be a light unto the nations, so that the nations may one day follow the Noachide laws ordained by G-d. Through our example, we are to make many people righteous, but we bear the punishment of the guilty in the meantime. We have been killed by many, dying with the Shema on our lips. We have been buried in pits as sinners, whereas the killers were the real sinners.
G-d will one day reward us, the nations will one day recognize our role. The nations have numbered us as sinner and murdered us because of their misguided beliefs. It is they that were guilty. We have ever prayed for the world, for the people of the nations in which we dwelt. In the end, all will stream to Mount Zion to worship, all will follow the seven laws of Noah, and "... In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold--they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.'" (Zech. 8:23) And 19O LORD, my strength, and my fortress, and my refuge in the day of affliction, the Gentiles shall come unto thee from the ends of the earth, and shall say, Surely our fathers have inherited lies, vanity, and things wherein there is no profit. …. 21Therefore, behold, I will this once cause them to know, I will cause them to know mine hand and my might; and they shall know that my name is The LORD. (Jer 16:19,21)
The suffering servant is Israel. But she will be redeemed by G-d. Notice what occurs directly after Isaiah 53 in the verses in 54.
Israel is compared to a woman without child: 1Sing, O barren, thou that didst not bear; break forth into singing, and cry aloud, thou that didst not travail with child:…. 6For the LORD hath called thee as a woman forsaken and grieved in spirit, and a wife of youth, when thou wast refused, saith thy God.
7For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee. 8In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
Does this in anyway apply to Jesus? No! But the nation of Israel? Yes!
Isaiah 54:10For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee. 11O thou afflicted, tossed with tempest, and not comforted, behold, I will lay thy stones with fair colours, and lay thy foundations with sapphires.
There is that wording again! Afflicted! Like Zion, my people in Isaiah 51:21 and Isaiah 53:4, Israel is once again refered to as G-ds afflicted. Before Isaiah 53 and after.
Isaiah 54: 17No weapon that is formed against thee shall prosper; and every tongue that shall rise against thee in judgment thou shalt condemn. This is the heritage of the servants of the LORD, and their righteousness is of me, saith the LORD.
And look how 54 ends. Once again Israel is called servant but this time plural. So, to summarize, Isaiah 41-49 Israel My servant, Isaiah 49-52 Israel is Zion, Isaiah 53 back to My servant, Isaiah 54 Israel the barren woman, comforted by G-d, Israel, servants of the LORD.
Taken in the context of a sizeable section of Isaiah, Israel is G-ds suffering servant, redeemed by G-d.
You said:
Jesus said he would come at a time “when you think not”. Therefore when anybody predicts when Jesus will return, they are wrong.
Who do you think Jesus was speaking of when he said: he would come at a time “when you think not”.??????
Hello blasater!
Well as you can see, threads like these can be very controversial, with good freepers who have a different take on the issue of *Messiah* and his return on earth...I respectuflly understand you do not believe it is Jesus of Nazareth..
I do have a question from your understanding...
What is the prophetic understanding in Orthodoxy Judaism about Israel becoming a nation in 1948, and in going forward?
Thanks and Shalom!
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