Holy Place, Sacred Space (REAL Mormon / LDS)

LDS.org ^ | Dennis B. Neuenschwander

[DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis]

 

- Warning -

 

This post has been flagged as Cultic Mormon Spam

by Christians on FreeRepublic.com

 

Let the reader beware!

[aMorePerfectUnion]

An Open Letter to Mormons who are
sincere about their faith...

 

(and embarrassed by the posts of self-styled
"defender-mormons" who cannot defend...)

 

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums
you will notice a pattern. There’s a group of
Christians who spend a great deal of time posting
from Official Mormon Sources - both the Book of
Mormon as well as Mormon Prophets and Church
materials - real quotes from real mormon materials.

 

You will also notice that many of these Christians
are former Mormons who left Mormonism and come to
know the Biblical Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Grace.

 

They have a passion to reach Mormons to share what
they learned about Salvation by grace and apart
from the never ending treadmill of human works...

 

Of course, they are attacked regularly by a very,
small group of Mormons who have zeal, but no real
knowledge beyond what the Mormon Church has told
them. You've seen this with your own eyes on this
thread and others, so I'm not telling you anything

you don't already know.

 

Why can't these so-called "defenders" provide any:

 

… Objective Facts
… Objective Evidence
… Or Logical support

 

Anything OBJECTIVE that any reasonable person would
see and agree that it lends support the claims of
Mormonism.

 

Why can't they do this?

 

If Mormonism is true, why is it based only on

subjective feelings and why doesn't it have the

same kind of objective support the Bible does?

 

Has God changed?

 

Is He no longer able to weave His story into history,

into the fabric of human DNA, into the findings of

archeology, and into geography? Do you believe He has

become powerless?

 

I bet you do not believe that.

 

So why would God provide every kind of objective support
for the Bible's rich history and none for the Book of
Mormon? Why?

 

These "defenders" post links over and over again that
“address” things yet never provide an answer that is
buttressed by the ring of truth, echoed by history,
archeology, genetics, geography, etc.

 

If they could support the claims of Mormonism with facts,
you know they would. But it never happens here. You may

be new to these threads, but I've read almost every one

for the past 6 years. I can tell you that it is always

the same as this thread. No facts, no evidence, no logical

argument. 

 

People deserve more than subjective feelings and useless
links to non-answers.

 

You deserve more than feelings and hollow links.

 

After reading both sides on this thread and others,
you may very well be wondering about what you were
taught when you joined the LDS church. You also may
be wondering how to resolve the lack of facts, evidence
and logical suport for Mormonism's claims.

 

You are not alone in wondering this.

 

Many have approached those of us who are Christians
asking where to find out more and some, even, to ask
how to come to know the Biblical Christ and some even how
to gracefully leave Mormonism and start a new life with
Christ.

 

Many here have already set out to finally and joyfully know
the true God and Savior. They understand the terrible choice
of being totally sincere about your faith, but increasingly
concerned that it isn't everything you once believed and hoped

for.

After coming to know the truth, they are on a path that gives

them the rest God promised to His children and the certainty

of His ultimate plan for them. Nothing brings them greater joy

than helping a friend who has the same questions.

 

There are places online that you can visit to learn more about

Mormonism.

 

If something is true, it can withstand any question, no matter

how tough. If it is false, it is better to know while your life

is in front of you. You can read these resources without fear.

 

http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html
http://www.exmormonsforjesus.org/
http://4mormon.org/ex-mormon.php
http://www.exmormon.org/
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/

 

Links may raise more questions and concerns and sometimes it
helps to have someone who has already wrestled through these
issues.

 

I invite you to private FReep-mail any of the Christians
on this thread to ask questions about the concerns you have.

 

We always do our best to directly answer your questions with
facts, evidence and logical support.

 

Take a step.

 

Roll the dice.

 

What do you have to lose at this point? And you have much to

gain. 

 

There is peace and rest waiting for you.

 

 

All the Best,
ampu

An Open Letter to Mormons who are
sincere about their faith...

 

(and embarrassed by the posts of self-styled
"defender-mormons" who cannot defend...)

 

If you peruse the Free Republic religion forums
you will notice a pattern. There’s a group of
Christians who spend a great deal of time posting
from Official Mormon Sources - both the Book of
Mormon as well as Mormon Prophets and Church
materials - real quotes from real mormon materials.

 

You will also notice that many of these Christians
are former Mormons who left Mormonism and come to
know the Biblical Jesus Christ and His Gospel of Grace.

 

They have a passion to reach Mormons to share what
they learned about Salvation by grace and apart
from the never ending treadmill of human works...

 

Of course, they are attacked regularly by a very,
small group of Mormons who have zeal, but no real
knowledge beyond what the Mormon Church has told
them. You've seen this with your own eyes on this
thread and others, so I'm not telling you anything

you don't already know.

 

Why can't these so-called "defenders" provide any:

 

… Objective Facts
… Objective Evidence
… Or Logical support

 

Anything OBJECTIVE that any reasonable person would
see and agree that it lends support the claims of
Mormonism.

 

Why can't they do this?

 

If Mormonism is true, why is it based only on

subjective feelings and why doesn't it have the

same kind of objective support the Bible does?

 

Has God changed?

 

Is He no longer able to weave His story into history,

into the fabric of human DNA, into the findings of

archeology, and into geography? Do you believe He has

become powerless?

 

I bet you do not believe that.

 

So why would God provide every kind of objective support
for the Bible's rich history and none for the Book of
Mormon? Why?

 

These "defenders" post links over and over again that
“address” things yet never provide an answer that is
buttressed by the ring of truth, echoed by history,
archeology, genetics, geography, etc.

 

If they could support the claims of Mormonism with facts,
you know they would. But it never happens here. You may

be new to these threads, but I've read almost every one

for the past 6 years. I can tell you that it is always

the same as this thread. No facts, no evidence, no logical

argument. 

 

People deserve more than subjective feelings and useless
links to non-answers.

 

You deserve more than feelings and hollow links.

 

After reading both sides on this thread and others,
you may very well be wondering about what you were
taught when you joined the LDS church. You also may
be wondering how to resolve the lack of facts, evidence
and logical suport for Mormonism's claims.

 

You are not alone in wondering this.

 

Many have approached those of us who are Christians
asking where to find out more and some, even, to ask
how to come to know the Biblical Christ and some even how
to gracefully leave Mormonism and start a new life with
Christ.

 

Many here have already set out to finally and joyfully know
the true God and Savior. They understand the terrible choice
of being totally sincere about your faith, but increasingly
concerned that it isn't everything you once believed and hoped

for.

After coming to know the truth, they are on a path that gives

them the rest God promised to His children and the certainty

of His ultimate plan for them. Nothing brings them greater joy

than helping a friend who has the same questions.

 

There are places online that you can visit to learn more about

Mormonism.

 

If something is true, it can withstand any question, no matter

how tough. If it is false, it is better to know while your life

is in front of you. You can read these resources without fear.

 

http://www.irr.org/mit/default.html
http://www.exmormonsforjesus.org/
http://4mormon.org/ex-mormon.php
http://www.exmormon.org/
http://www.mormoncurtain.com/

 

Links may raise more questions and concerns and sometimes it
helps to have someone who has already wrestled through these
issues.

 

I invite you to private FReep-mail any of the Christians
on this thread to ask questions about the concerns you have.

 

We always do our best to directly answer your questions with
facts, evidence and logical support.

 

Take a step.

 

Roll the dice.

 

What do you have to lose at this point? And you have much to

gain. 

 

There is peace and rest waiting for you.

 

 

All the Best,
ampu

[dragonblustar]

[Paragon Defender]

You need to look here. You are being misled as is obvious by your worn out propaganda.

Here’s a few links to get your started from a different viewpoint. I have found that the vast majority of the “issues” brought up in the anti-Mormon propaganda can be found and addressed at http://www.fairlds.org/ but here’s more:

http://scriptures.lds.org/
http://www.lds.org
http://www.fairlds.org/
http://www.mormonapologetics.org/
http://www.mormonwiki.com/Main_Page
http://www.lightplanet.com/response/index.html
http://www.jefflindsay.com/LDS_Intro.shtml
http://www.answeringantimormons.com/index.htm
http://promormon.blogspot.com/

[Emperor Palpatine]

[aMorePerfectUnion]

“You need to look here. You are being misled”

---

And you are one of the biggest misleaders on FR -
constantly flacking your cult and seeking converts
with your propaganda.

Sure, I’m being misled by you, but I don’t believe
a word of your cultic rhetoric. And I’m here to
warn those that don’t realize your posts are cultic
spam.

Carry on. The Flying Inmans will be on each side of you
to warn the innocent.

ampu

[DeoVindiceSicSemperTyrannis]

Y’know, you still haven’t answered my question about Smith’s prophecies that failed to come to pass. Do you ever plan on answering it for me? I would like an answer from you, not a list of links. :-)

[SZonian]

“Those Saints who neglect [temple work] in behalf of their deceased relatives, do it at the peril of their own salvation.”

A key function of temples is to perform ordinance work for our deceased ancestors. When we think of temple ordinances and the necessity to do them perfectly, without error...“… For their salvation is NECESSARY AND ESSENTIAL TO OUR SALVATION...they without us cannot be made perfect—NEITHER CAN WE WITHOUT OUR DEAD BE MADE PERFECT” (D&C 128:5, 15;...).

So PD, what's in store for those who don't get into a temple, to perform these "sacred ordinances"? What becomes of them? Afterall, D&C is quite clear on the matter. they cannot be made "perfect" which equates to the purported "celestial kingdom".

Are ALL of your ancestors accounted for PD? Have they ALL had the "ordinances" done for them?

I doubt it, which places any mormon's salvation in jeopardy according to D&C.

But here's another example of the contradictions within mormonism, a contradiction between what JS supposedly received as revelation and the the BoM [The most correct book on earth"], which, according to Mosiah, "...is mockery before God...".

For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing-- But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works. (Moroni 8:22-23)

Wherefore, he has given a law; and where there is no law given there is no punishment; and where there is no punishment there is no condemnation; and where there is no condemnation the mercies of the Holy One of Israel have claim upon them, because of the atonement; for they are delivered by the power of him. For the atonement satisfieth the demands of his justice upon all those who have not the law given to them, that they are delivered from that awful monster, death and hell, and the devil, and the lake of fire and brimstone, which is endless torment; and they are restored to that God who gave them breath, which is the Holy One of Israel. (2 Nephi 9:25-26)

And these are those who have part in the first resurrection; and these are they that have died before Christ came, in their ignorance, not having salvation declared unto them. And thus the Lord bringeth about the restoration of these; and they have a part in the first resurrection, or have eternal life, being redeemed by the Lord. And little children also have eternal life. But behold, and fear, and tremble before God, for ye ought to tremble; ....(Mosiah 15:24-27)

[greyfoxx39]

Holy places have always been essential to the proper worship of God. For Latter-day Saints, such holy places include venues of historic significance, our homes, sacrament meetings, and temples. Much of what we reverence, and what we teach our children to reverence as holy and sacred, is reflected in these places. The faith and reverence associated with them and the respect we have for what transpires or has transpired in them make them holy. The importance of holy places and sacred space in our worship can hardly be overestimated.

Really? There's a spirit of reverence in the weekly services in the ward chapels now? How times have changed.

[Paragon Defender]

Y’know, you still haven’t answered my question about Smith’s prophecies that failed to come to pass. Do you ever plan on answering it for me?

---

I did. The non-issue you bring up is an old and tired bit of anti-Mormon propaganda.It is addressed at the links. Do you really want the answer? Prove it. Put forth a sincere effort.

---

I would like an answer from you, not a list of links. :-)

---

Sorry but your answer is awaiting you. Do you really want it? Are you just wanting to play an argumentative game?

[T Minus Four]

The temples, with “Holiness to the Lord” inscribed on them, are among the most sacred of all places on the earth

Your network of Mormon temples are blasphemous and pagan idolatry. They are completely unbiblical in nature and purpose. They make a mockery of the actual, one-and-only temple that God really dwelt in before He sent His son to save us, and His Holy Spirit to dwell in the believers' hearts.

A blashemous mockery, right down to the outrageously named "Holy of Holies" room in the salt lake temple, where only your phony prophet-who-does-not prophesie can actually sit and contemplate his greatness.

It makes me sick.

[T Minus Four]

“hidden away in the central part of the temple is the Holy of Holies, where the President of the Church may retire when burdened down with heavy decisions to seek an interview with Him whose Church it is.

I'll just BET he does.

[T Minus Four]

If you people want to "play Jewish Temple", where are your phalacteries and tassles? I'm sure they would be wide and long.

Oh wait, maybe that was mistranslated. Good thing it's been "restored".

[SZonian]

"Are you just wanting to play an argumentative game."

Awww, what's the matter PD? Aren't the words of your prophets and apostles admonishment enough to take on the "challenges"? What do you think an "argument" is?

Joseph Smith - "Wherefore, confound your enemies; call upon them to meet you both in public and in private" Doctrine and Covenants 71:7 (1831)

• Orson Pratt - "convince us of our errors of doctrine, if we have any, by reason, by logical arguments, or by the word of God, and we will be ever grateful for the information" The Seer, p. 15 (1854)

• George A. Smith - "If a faith will not bear to be investigated; if its preachers and professors are afraid to have it examined, their foundation must be very weak." Journal of Discourses, vol. 14, p. 216 (1871)

• Brigham Young - "I have had many revelations; I have seen and heard for myself, and know these things are true, and nobody on earth can disprove them. ... I say to the whole world, receive the truth, no matter who presents it to you. Take up the Bible, compare the religion of the Latter-day Saints with it, and see if it will stand the test." Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 46 (1873)

• Brigham Young - "I am here to give this people, called Latter-day Saints, counsel to direct them in the path of life. ... If there is an Elder here, or any member of this Church, called the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, who can bring up the first idea, the first sentence that I have delivered to the people as counsel that is wrong, I really wish they would do it; but they cannot do it, for the simple reason that I have never given counsel that is wrong; this is the reason." Journal of Discourses, vol. 16, p. 161 (1873)

• Wilford Woodruff - "I am willing to exchange all the errors and false notions I have for one truth, and should consider that I had made a good bargain. We are not afraid of light and truth. Our religion embraces every truth in heaven, earth or hell; it embraces all truth" Journal of Discourses, vol. 18, p. 117 (1875)

It appears not.

I guess that right about now, the wheels of the bus have come off the ground, what with so many apostles and prophets having been tossed under it.

[T Minus Four]

All that icky blood sacrifice stuff too. Did the Catholics add that in when they took out all of the “plain and precious truths”?

[Paragon Defender]

Aren’t the words of your prophets and apostles admonishment enough to take on the “challenges”?

---

I take them on how I choose to, by providing the sources for the truth. Does it disappoint you that I won’t play an argumentative game that I know has no good purpose?

If you truly seek discussion, some of my links have that for you. Is that what you truly seek?

[dragonblustar]

PD,

When you become a god, who is going to worship you?

[T Minus Four]

PD, When you become a god, who is going to worship you?

Oh

My

Heck

[dragonblustar]

PD,

Are you holding onto the Mormon faith because you believe you’ll become a god in the afterlife?

Is that what it’s all about, you wanting to become a god, have your own planet and create celestial babies?

Have you planned out which wife you’ll snag for your polygamist, celestial baby making factory?

And when you’ve become a god...... will you still worship Jesus?

And if you become a god and created a planet filled with celestial babies, will they sing praises to you or God that created you?