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Pastor stirs wrath with his views on old questions (says no hell)
The New York Times ^ | 4-Mar-2011 | Erik Eckholm

Posted on 03/05/2011 11:00:45 PM PST by OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

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To: mongrel
You read a synopsis about Bell that was false and slanderous.

If memory serves me correctly, you were the one who were slandering Calvin and Piper. I merely stated that if Bell says there is no hell and certainly no torment, then perhaps he should stop working on his poetry for a while and devote himself to the scriptures. He's a false teacher who doesn't have any scriptural backing in making his assertions.

As far as the eternal destiny of Gandhi or others, you are correct-one can only be certain of their salvation, not others. However, I can safely say that if a person does not accept Christ as their personal Savior before they die, then they will face the fire and torment of hell. I doubt if Bell would agree.

161 posted on 03/08/2011 4:41:13 PM PST by HarleyD
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To: sigzero

Are you arguing that since sin is our nature we must sin?

So that then we are condemned at birth?


162 posted on 03/09/2011 4:21:26 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: HarleyD; mongrel

What exactly is Hell? What does the Bible specifically teach about Hell?


163 posted on 03/09/2011 4:22:25 AM PST by 1010RD (First, Do No Harm)
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To: sigzero
We sin because we have free will, not because we are accursed with an evil nature. Which is what you're indicating.

That was first espoused by Saint Augustine.

Furthermore, Deuteronomy 30:10-14 clearly states that G-d's nature is in our hearts and that following it is not beyond us:

...if you will hearken to the voice of the Lord your God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which are written in this Book of the Law; if you turn unto the Lord thy God with all your heart and with all your soul; for this commandment which I command you this day is not too hard for you neither is it too far off. It is not in heaven, that you should say, "Who shall go up for us to heaven, and bring it to us, and make us hear it, that we may do it?" Neither is it beyond the sea that you should say: "Who shall go over the sea for us, and bring it unto us, and make us to hear it that we may do it?" The word is very near to you, in your mouth and in your heart, that you may do it.

164 posted on 03/09/2011 4:58:36 AM PST by gogogodzilla (Live free or die!)
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To: gogogodzilla

You do not have free will. By your nature, all you can do is sin. The Bible is clear about that as well. “None is righteous, no not ONE”. Regarding Deut.; yet they could NOT keep the commandments and God knew that it would be so. If man could keep the law there would be no reason for the sacrifice of Christ.


165 posted on 03/09/2011 7:40:40 PM PST by sigzero
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

What a loving god. To Hell with you for being wrong....even if you chose out of misunderstanding and ignorance. No forgiveness for you...no.....not a snowball’s chance. Rigid, unyielding....unforgiving.....after two-thousand years of supposed absence.....unless, of course you knuckle under and say you believe.


166 posted on 03/09/2011 7:49:25 PM PST by stboz
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To: Strk321

In my experience, it’s mostly atheists who have that opinion.


You got that right, they will say there is no God, but if a baby some where in the world dies of hunger, they will say how can God be so cruel.

It makes me wonder if they are really atheists or if they just hate God. which ever they are it seems something is missing.


167 posted on 03/12/2011 12:57:16 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: OrthodoxKirkPresbyterian

The Bible plainly talks of hell, but if you ask what hell is, some one will tell you it is the lake of fire.

What is the lake of fire? is it like a lake of water?
no, its a place of punishment.

The point i am trying to make in my simple minded way is that i do not know what hell is no more than i know what heaven is.

The only thing i do know is that i believe that God sent his only begotten son into this world so that those who believe in him should not perish but have everlasting life.

Not an everlasting life of this body but an everlasting life of the spirit, and then what? i don,t know.


168 posted on 03/12/2011 1:16:07 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: RobRoy

I like this analogy of the concept of eternal hell (not mine):

Suppose for a moment that a wonderful man—Mr. Right, if you will—offers a marriage proposal to the woman he loves. “Marry me,” he says, “and I will give you a life like you’ve never dreamed of before. You will be loved with the greatest commitment and passion that any woman has ever known. I will give you the finest house with all of the wonderful things you’ve ever wanted, and you will be happy for the rest of your days!”


That sounds like it was wrote by some one who has read just enough of the Bible to not even know what it is all about, but did not like the little bit they read.


169 posted on 03/12/2011 1:26:38 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: OldEagle

A major difference between the Old Testament and the New is that the New Testament has Jesus Christ. And as He died for our sins, maybe there is no need for hell?


Yes he gave us everlasting life, but we have to except it by believing him, the unbelievers don,t believe in him.


170 posted on 03/12/2011 1:37:13 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: HarleyD

If he doesn’t say it, then I would like to know what he’s saying or what your definition of hell is.


The Bible plainly says heaven and hell, but i will have to admit i do not know what they really are any more than i did 40 years ago when i started reading the bible and became a believer, so i can understand why people has different viewpoints.

I just do not believe any thing should be taught as fact unless it can be proven by plain scripture, for instance the sunday sabbath as most churches teach.


171 posted on 03/12/2011 2:00:49 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: RobRoy

But what is hell? The bible is very clear that it exists in eternity. It does not say people suffer for time unending. I think of it more like an event frozen in a piece of lucite, or a photograph. That is, the person may be destroyed, but their destruction does not “happen” for eternity. Rather, it is “final” and preserved for all eternity. They do not survive the second death and they “stay dead”. The rest of us go on to eternal LIFE, which is the opposite of death.


That seems to me also what the scriptures may be saying.


172 posted on 03/12/2011 2:10:03 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: Strk321

While Hell is referred to as a place of torment, that can mean a lot of things. In my interpretation, “torment” can simply mean the mental anguish of knowing that you could have been with God, but failed due to your own bad behavior.


As i was reading your comment, i just got to thinking that hell for me would be a wandering spirit with out a chance of being born and having a body and enjoying the wonderful things and going through the bad things of life and thinking, ( what i would give for another chance ) not scriptural maybe but something to think about i guess.


173 posted on 03/12/2011 2:49:47 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: HarleyD

John’s comment was after Christ paid the price.


I tend to agree, but John was talking to the believers and the real believers know they need forgiveness for their sin.

Only believers can be saved, its there they have to except it.

But i also can see the other side, can any one really say they chose Christ? or was they chosen by the father.

Who chose who?

John 6:39
And this is the Father’s will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.


174 posted on 03/12/2011 3:21:36 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: stboz

What a loving god. To Hell with you for being wrong..


If that is your way of saying you are wrong, then just read the story of how Jesus tried to make the religious leaders of his day understand that the God they claimed to represent was really real and was arrested by the religious leaders and lead to the cross by the Roman soldiers and how he died on the cross, walk the path with him and see, and behold how he forgave the thief next to him because he believed.

I did,nt believe either.


175 posted on 03/12/2011 3:39:06 AM PST by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: ravenwolf

>>That sounds like it was wrote by some one who has read just enough of the Bible to not even know what it is all about, but did not like the little bit they read. <<

Not to me. On the surface maybe. But then, attempting to explain something as vast and complicated (and incomprehensible to man) in such a short analogy can be tricky. Different people take away different meaning based on their own interpretation of a myriad of scripture references coupled with their own life experiences.


176 posted on 03/12/2011 4:07:11 AM PST by RobRoy (The US Today: Revelation 18:4)
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To: ravenwolf

I’ve argued with them. They’re completely confused and talk out of both sides of their mouth.


177 posted on 03/12/2011 5:16:50 PM PST by Strk321
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To: RobRoy

This brings up another point. People can interpret the Bible in a myriad of different ways, but atheists insist that there’s only one way to interpret it (usually the worst possible one).


178 posted on 03/12/2011 5:18:23 PM PST by Strk321
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To: RobRoy

Not to me. On the surface maybe. But then, attempting to explain something as vast and complicated (and incomprehensible to man) in such a short analogy can be tricky. Different people take away different meaning based on their own interpretation of a myriad of scripture references coupled with their own life experiences.


Yes i see what you mean, i guess it depends on what the situation is.

I was assuming that by the marriageable age that any one would already know they were bound for hell, and i can,t see that it really matters if hell is eternal punishment or if it means something entirely different and i am not convinced what it means because i am aware that much of the scriptures may just be symbols.

At the same time i can see if some one who knows nothing about it hears that they must believe or go into eternal punishment might think it is punishment either way.

And do we really have a choice of belief? believe or die, i am not sure if that would really make me believe, but i don,t think so.

Most unbelievers believe that we make our own hell or heaven here on earth and after that there is nothing, and although they have a point they are missing the most important point.

These people are just as good as any one else and need Christs words of truth because to them there is nothing after this life any way so what does it matter what hell is, and that is also what some believers say hell is, nothing.

So the message would be to them, it don,t have to end, there can be more, if you want more.

And just to be honest i would like for some one to convince me that hell was not such a bad place, GEE, i wander why.

So i was just looking at it from a different point of view, thanks.


179 posted on 03/13/2011 6:37:11 AM PDT by ravenwolf (Just a bit of the long list of proofs)
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To: sr4402

Sorry it has taken so long to reply, the last few days this week have been hectic to say the least and yesterday I was burnt out on nearly a 1000 rss feeds to go through while squeezing in reading a book. :)

Although it appears we do agree on the depravity of man I think we might disagree on the extent of it. Total depravity as I’ve understood it means that man is so depraved that he a)doesn’t know he’s depraved for if he did he would know what good is and would then be conscious of a decision to make; either to be good (or at least try to be) or continue to be bad.
And b)Since he doesn’t know he’s depraved then he therefore doesn’t know to ask for help or to be able to change his ways. I just don’t buy that, I don’t know of anyone that doesn’t inherently know good from bad and if they know good from bad then they can know whether they are either, and therefore able once again to either choose to be good or bad.

Now to answer your latest question is simple, “And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.” Rev. 20:15.


180 posted on 03/13/2011 11:06:35 AM PDT by thatjoeguy (Wind is just air, but pushier.)
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