Posted on 02/28/2011 10:25:53 AM PST by Quix
Theres not much “Protestant” theology going on in those churches these days.
>> IF YOU WANT TO GO TO HEAVEN, YOU HAVE TO BE HOLY AS I MYSELF AM HOLY<<
Then you point to 1 Corinthians. With the covering of Jesus blood we stand before the Father cleansed. Therefore Holy as Jesus is Holy?
Such were some of you; but YOU WERE WASHED, but YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, but YOU WERE JUSTIFIED in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God. (1 Corinthians 6:9-11)
In your second example I believe you make an assumption.
>> "You see, SOME OF THESE PEOPLE KNEW ME WHEN THEY WERE ON EARTH.<<
You said: “(i.e., they were Christians)”.
The phrase “knew me when they were on earth” does not necessarily mean that they “believed” or trusted that Jesus was the messiah.
>> I asked Him: "ARE THERE CHRISTIANS IN THIS HELL?", He answered: "Yes, do you know why? They believed in Me but they did not walk according to my Word.<<
Revelation 1:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3 And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent.
I’m going to have to hand it to you, you’re on the mark but you don’t seem to be able to grasp the difference between an Armenian and a Calvinist.
First, there is no discord between being called to be 100% sold out to Christ, to the point that you are making the effort to be Holy just as Christ is Holy, and your point that to say that we have no sin in our lives is deception. In fact, I’d say that understanding that we have sin in our lives, and seeking to repent from that sin, is part of being Holy because it requires us to humble ourselves before God.
Then again, you stated that there was a problem with Christ saying that some of those shown in Hell knew Him when they were on Earth. You jump to the conclusion that they must have been Christians, but the text doesn’t say that, it simply says that they knew Him. Slight, but important, difference there. No evidence that those shown were Christians, just that they knew Christ on earth.
Your next quote, however, is a real gem because you took it out of context. The passage is clearly meant to be understood that Christ was referring to social Christians who, like the seed who fell among thorns, accepted the Gospel but let the cares of this world rob them of their salvation. They, literally, turned their backs on God because they would rather live in the World than live a life devoted to God. The passages you mention are true, but they speak to God’s power to hold and preserve us, not to our willingness to remain in God’s protection. Big difference there.
Robes, now there’s one that I haven’t seen addressed before. Okay, so are our robes purchased by Christ’s sacrificial blood and kept clean from sin by our constant effort to remain Holy (confessing sin when we’re aware of it and repenting of it) or are they bought by the righteous acts of the Saints? Here’s a hint, you’re right about the righteous acts of the Saints, but those acts are the Saint’s desire to remain Holy just like Christ. The problems that were reported (dirty robes, crumpled robes, missing robes) are a reflection of sin in the believer’s life, even to the point of the believer turning their back on Christ.
Finally, the last point you make speaks more to the idea that a person can return to their old sins than anything else. Personal, first hand experience speaking here, but that is a very, very definate possibility. Backsliding is not only possible, but if a person dies while they are backslidden, they cannot enter into Heaven due to their sins. It’s the same reason that suicide is a ticket straight to hell, it’s intentional murder with no repentance.
I agree with your other point though, we need to test everything, no exceptions, before accepting it as true. I consider this that testing. I can be a little harsh at times, but considering that you’re trying to be a Berean about this, I can respect that.
2. Where in Scripture does it say
A) Man has changed?
B) Satan has changed?
C) God has changed?
3. What UNBIBLICAL idiocy to think any of them have changed.
4. where in Scripture does it say
A) THAT Man no longer NEEDS the operation of Holy Spirit as at the BEGINNING of the New Testament Church age/ era/ dispensation?
B) THAT Satan has decided to pull HIS punches since idiot religionists have declared that Holy Spirit has packed up and gone fishing?
C) THAT God has decided to leave all the dramatic works, fireworks, power demonstrations to satan and his demonic forces?
==================================================
5. There is one attitude from ignorant, poorly taught folks which is just that--unaware and mildly dismissive out of ignorance. For those in that category who STILL, NEVERTHELESS, HAVE a true heart after God to seek His face and His highest for them and those they love, Holy Spirit in these END TIMES, WILL at HIS appointed times and in HIS appointed ways break through to them with the miraculous they will so desperately need to not only survive but be overcomers by the Blood of The Lamb and the word of their testimony.
6. There is another attitude which is akin to, equal to or worse than the pharisees' attitudes of 2,000 years ago. Those folks are in grave danger--particularly when they label doings of Holy Spirit to be doings of satan.
7. Where they knowingly do so, they are at risk of irretrievably forfeiting any claim to eternal life they may have had.
8. The Lord has made it abundantly clear in Daniel, Isaiah, Psalms, Ezekiel, the shorter prophets as well as in the New Testament that the END TIMES will be full of dramatic power demonstrations on satan's side AND on God's side. Anyone thinking otherwise is demonstrating extremely poor Biblical knowledge if not terminal obtuse cluelessness. May God have mercy on their souls.
It may be the weekend before I can respond to your post in detail.
Basically you appear to be assuming things that are not true—both about what Christ meant in his visitation statements and what the Scriptures you referenced meant as you are applying the verses to those statements.
Assumpationis and bias are poor foundations for accurate Biblical understanding.
.
INDEED.
[p63-69] "Sitting at my makeshift desk, I looked over at my son as he brought Spider-Man pouncing down on some nasty-looking creature from Star Wars. 'Hey, Colton,' I said. 'Remember when we were in the car and you talked about sitting on Jesus' lap?'
Still on his knees, he looked up at me. "Yeah."
"Well, did anything else happen?"
He nodded, eyes bright. "Did you know that Jesus has a cousin? Jesus told me his cousin baptized him."
"Yes, you're right," I said. "The Bible says Jesus' cousin's name is John."
Mentally, I scolded myself: Don't offer information. Just let him talk...
"I don't remember his name," Colton said happily, "but he was really nice."
John the Baptist is 'nice'?!
. . .
. . . "Hey, Dad, did you know Jesus has a horse?"
. . .
. . .
. . . Now it was dawning on me that [p64] not only was my son saying he had left his body; he was saying he had left the hospital!
"You were in heaven?" I managed to ask.
"Well, yeah, Dad," he said, as if that fact should have been perfectly obvious.
. . .
. . .
. . .
Back downstairs, Colton was still on his knees, bombing aliens . . .
"Hey, Colton, can I ask you something else about Jesus?"
He nodded but didn't look up from his devastating attack on a little pile of X-Men.
"What did Jesus look like?" I said.
Abruptly, Colton put down his toys and looked up at me.
"Jesus has markers."
"What?"
"Markers, Daddy . . . Jesus has markers. And he has brown hair and he has hair on his face," . . . "And his eyes . . . oh, Dad, his eyes are so pretty!"
As he said this, Colton's face grew dreamy and far away, as if enjoying a particularly sweet memory.
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . . . . "His clothes were white, but it was purple from here to here."
Another word he didn't know: sash.
"Jesus was the only one in heaven who had purple on, Dad. Did you know that?"
. . .
. . .
. . .
. . . . .I got all that . But what about the markers? What did Colton mean when he said Jesus has markers?
What are markers to a little kid?
Suddenly, I had it. "Colton, you said Jesus had markers. You mean like markers that you color with?"
Colton nodded. "Yeah, like colors. He had colors on him."
"Like when you color a page?"
"Yeah."
"Well, what color are Jesus' markers?"
"Red, Daddy, Jesus has red markers on him."
At that moment, my throat nearly closed with tears as I suddenly understood what Colton was trying to say. Quietly, carefully, I said, "Colton, where are Jesus' markers?"
Without hesitation, he stood to his feet. He held out his right hand, palm up and pointed to the center of it with his left. Then he held out his left palm and pointed with his right hand. Finally, Colton bent over and pointed to the tops of both his feet.
"That's where Jesus' markers are, Daddy," he said.
I drew in a sharp breath. He saw this. He had to have."
. . .
. . .
. . .
I was also struck by how quickly Colton answered my questions. He spoke with the simple conviction of an eye-witness, not the carefulness of someone remembering the "right" answers learned in Sunday school or from a book.
"Colton, I'm going up to get some water," I said, really only wanting to exit the conversation. Whether or not he was done, I was done. I had enough information to chew on.
"Okay, Daddy," Colton said and bent to his toys.
Upstairs, in the kitchen, I leaned against the counter and sipped from a water bottle. How could my little boy know this stuff?"
. . .
. . .
. . .
When I asked Colton what Jesus looked like, that was the first detail he popped out with. NOt the purple sash, the crown or even Jesus' eyes, with which Colton was clearly enchanted. He'd said right off the bat, "Jesus has markers."
. . .
. . .
. . .
IT'S A BOOK WELL WORTH READING. It will encourage you in your faith and in your affection for Jesus and The Father and Spirit.
That picture of the Prince of Peace is wonderful.
This young lady has been truly gifted, to draw so well so young.
It was a blessing just to see it.
And Colton’s confirmation, well, that sent a tingle down my spine.
Thanks Quix!
God Bless.
I thoroughly agree.
Colton’s confirmation was . . . absolutely incredible.
And still at the age when matter of fact candor was still his child-like way of being.
What do you think are the road blocks with otherwise rational, seemingly sincere, and obviously bright Christians blocking out the truths of such Biblical visitations, visions etc.???
It’s shocking, to me. Is there no heart OPEN TO GOD?
IS THERE NO HOLY SPIRIT DISCERNMENT?
Have they packaged God so rigidly in such pretend tidy little boxes that they dare not let Him out else their whole schema crumbles?
That’s no better than the RC’s worshiping their INSTITUTION, dogma, !!!TRADITIONS!!!
Sheesh.
In this excerpt,....
I asked Him: "ARE THERE CHRISTIANS IN THIS HELL?", He answered: "Yes, do you know why? They believed in Me but they did not walk according to my Word. There are many, those Christians who only behave well when they are in the temple, in front of their pastors and their family. But they are greatly deceiving themselves. The eyes of my Father see everything and He understands every word, wherever you are. Tell my people that it's time they lived a holy life before my Father, before the devil and before the world.
I agree with you in regard to this jmouse.... Jesus clearly says they were Christians and knew Him. Not knew OF Him or ABOUT Him, but KNEW Him. He said they ended up in hell because they didn't do good works. That is contrary to the gospel where Christ's righteousness is imputed to us and credited to our account. If we have Christ's righteousness, then our day to day sin which we ALL do, cannot condemn us.
Then the Lord showed me thousands of people who were suffering in hell, and He told me: "You see, some of these people knew Me when they were on earth.
Again, here He says they knew Him.
The big problem with this account and others that make these statements is that the clear implication is that people are going to hell or heaven based on their works or sin.
Now, if there had been a statement that they were people who CLAIMED to know Jesus, or THOUGHT they were Christians, but they displayed that they did not have genuine faith since it did not result in the fruit of good works, then that would be different. But that isn't what was said. The person claims that these people who were in hell were actual Christians; actual believers who were saved at one time and now weren't because they sinned.
That is borne out in this statement....
The Lord answered me: "I will save your mother, but I will take her home immediately otherwise she will fall back into sin and go to hell. For this reason, as soon as she is converted, she will die some time later and come here, in paradise".
That's the clincher. It clearly says that the mother would be saved and then be lost later because of sin she would have fallen back into.
We don't get saved by works and we don't stay saved by works.
Galatians 3:1-3 1O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? It was before your eyes that Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified. 2Let me ask you only this: Did you receive the Spirit by works of the law or by hearing with faith? 3Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?
We all sin every day. Nobody is perfect and nobody is perfectly holy. It's God who sanctifies and justifies and grants us His holiness.
The danger with the message and others like it, is that it can lead people to believe that if they do the right things, they'll get into heaven, even if they haven't repented and don't have saving faith.
It's a message of works based salvation, not faith based.
I never have put a lot of stock in dreams and visions because most of them are not Scripturally sound.
Jmouse did not jump to that conclusion. That's what the text of the document SAID.
The document says that there were Christians in hell because of sin in their lives and that her mother would be saved and die right away otherwise she'd fall back into sin and be lost.
That clearly puts it in the works based salvation category.
I went back and re-read it again and I’m inclined to believe you metmom. In fact the whole thing leaves out much at all about faith and Jesus atonement for our sins.
Here’s a link to the PRINCE OF PEACE PIC:
http://www.artakiane.com/gallery
*************************************************************************************
There are dozens of pictures at that site. How are we supposed to know which one is the right one?
I concur with your assessment metmom.
If one simply remains in faith with Christ, and in love for one’s fellow man or any number of situations God’s plan has for us, we will tend to perform good works. But if we focus on the works as good works, we will tend to perform the work on our outside of faith in Him, and slide into a legalistic form of thinking as we perform the works, making God a debtor, rather than through faith allowing Him to work through us.
One thing that doesn’t fit.
Allegedly Jesus is telling her about all these people who fell into sin and ended up in hell after becoming Christians, and He tells her that He’s going to save her mother and she’ll die right away because otherwise she’ll fall back into sin and end up in hell.
Well, if He’s going to do that for her mother, why wouldn’t He do it for everyone else as well?
That makes no sense.
EXACTLY!!!!!!!!!
God does not owe us salvation just because we do good works to hang over His head to blackmail with.
And it does lead to legalism.
The sale page for that pic as a larger version and seems to be the only link that will serve as it’s own link vs the gallery:
https://www.akiane.com/store/prince-of-peace.html
I think y’all may be clinging overmuch to Calvinism in your response to the Heavenly visit.
There are those who will fall away from the true faith. So I have no problem with the concept of people losing their salvation. As I posted before, and example would be the church of Ephesus.
Revelation 2:1 Unto the angel of the church of Ephesus write; These things saith he that holdeth the seven stars in his right hand, who walketh in the midst of the seven golden candlesticks; 2 I know thy works, and thy labour, and thy patience, and how thou canst not bear them which are evil: and thou hast tried them which say they are apostles, and are not, and hast found them liars: 3And hast borne, and hast patience, and for my name's sake hast laboured, and hast not fainted. 4 Nevertheless I have somewhat against thee, because thou hast left thy first love. 5 Remember therefore from whence thou art fallen, and repent, and do the first works; or else I will come unto thee quickly, and will remove thy candlestick out of his place, except thou repent. The issue I have is that it’s pretty much works based rather then the total and complete faith in Jesus perfect sacrifice that paid the price completely. I can see where Catholics would accept this whole heartedly.
I always understood that to mean the church and not the individual believer.
>>I always understood that to mean the church and not the individual believer.<<
That passage was directed at a group but I used it as an example of the fact that one can lose the salvation or place they had. There are other scriptures that individualize that truth.
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