Posted on 02/04/2011 11:29:26 AM PST by RJR_fan
I think you are the one exaggerating.
So can ex-Dispies. They're really, really nasty.
Antisemitic, racist, anti-Mormon, anti-Masonic, and religious groups criticized the group's acceptance of Jews, non-whites, Masons, and Mormons. These opponents accused Welch of harboring feminist, ecumenical, and evolutionary ideas.[33][34][35]
The JBS is the "blue lodge" into the anti-Semitic movement. Now, they couldn't very well be the "blue lodge" if they openly taught anti-Semitism, could they? But they have used anti-Semitic literature to promote their "conspiracy theory," and plenty of members have absorbed the information and joined the open anti-Semitic movement. True, they often then issue statements about the JBS "refusing to name the enemy," but they certainly implied who that enemy was, didn't they? Otherwise they wouldn't manufacture so many anti-Semites.
Virtually every leader of the anti-Semitic movement in the United States has gone through the John Birch Society, including Ben Klassen (atheist founder of the "church of the creator").
Nice dig in your final line, btw. You really don't like me, do you? I guess that means I'm doing something right.
PS: Welch didn't just "harbor evolutionary ideas." He was an avowed evolutionist. He was also a Unitarian.
Touché.
True, they often then issue statements about the JBS "refusing to name the enemy," but they certainly implied who that enemy was, didn't they? Otherwise they wouldn't manufacture so many anti-Semites.
I wouldn't know. Were all the Jews in the JBS anti-Semites?
You really don't like me, do you?
I think you are probably a fine person and we would get along swimmingly face-to-face.
It's too bad this running commentary has developed because a dead man cannot defend his comments, and his legitimate clarification gets poo-pooed. I'm sure you wouldn't want your remarks treated the same way, construed in the worst possible light rather than the best. I'm not sure how charity works in your world.
::Facepalm:: Did you not read my last post about the JBS being the "blue lodge?" Now they couldn't be the "blue lodge" if they didn't admit Jews as members, could they?
Not to worry though. Jewish Birchers are just window dressing.
It's too bad this running commentary has developed because a dead man cannot defend his comments, and his legitimate clarification gets poo-pooed. I'm sure you wouldn't want your remarks treated the same way, construed in the worst possible light rather than the best. I'm not sure how charity works in your world.
Perhaps I overreact, but all I need to know about Rushdoony is that he is the Birchers' hero (and quasi-official Protestant theologian) and that the JBS "unofficially" pushes William Pierce's The Rapture Cult. He was most certainly the father of "chr*stian reconstructionism." BTW, despite the mutual hostility, Judaism and dominionism both aim at a world governed by Divine Law, whereas "dispies" are very anti-legal. Perhaps this proximity of belief causes some of this mutual hostility.
At any rate, you don't see mo on FR screaming at moslems because they want a world governed by Divine law (though of course I deny that they have or represent that law). Fundamentalist chr*stians tend to sound like the ACLU when moslems are the subject of discussion.
Self-loathing?
At any rate, you don't see mo on FR screaming at moslems because they want a world governed by Divine law (though of course I deny that they have or represent that law). Fundamentalist chr*stians tend to sound like the ACLU when moslems are the subject of discussion.
For the dispie it's a question of law or no law. That's why they hate Reconstructionism, because the dispie creed is No Law.
But we know it can never be law/no law. It's always a matter of whose law. Even the Muslims understand this, wrong as they are in application.
Right. Gentiles are grafted unto the Jews/Judaism. So, how is it that they have replaced Judaism, the faith that Jesus lived and taught, with a new religion called Christianity?
The invitation is for all, the means is Christ, the house is the House of Israel and you are restored to fellowship, Jew or Gentile, with the God of Israel through the Son, but you are restored to the House of Israel, there is a physical Jerusalem and a spiritual one.
Not quite. The invitation is for all. The means is YHWH. YHWH is our Salvation. Jesus would tell you that. All you have to do is return to YHWH. Jesus taught repentance and was trying to get people to return to YHWH, the Savior. Those lost sheep, they are the Israelites that through exile and or captivity, married into gentile nations and became gentiles. Jesus was trying to bring them back into the Judaic fold.
Be careful with this opinion of discarding the Jews out of God’s plan, this concept is erroneous and evil...
Sure is. Be careful, too, about discarding the faith that Jesus taught and lived.
Islam - believes that Israel is no longer God’s chosen people
Dominionism – believes that Israel is no longer God’s chosen people
Islam – believe that Israel has no right to the land
Dominionism – believes that Israel has no right to the land
Islam – believes that people must install their religion for all world governments
Dominionism – believes that people must install their religion for all world governments
Islam – believes that their religion must rule the entire world for paradise to come
Dominionism – believes that their religion must rule the entire world for paradise to come
Islam – believes that stoning is appropriate for adultery and other offenses to religion.
Dominionism – believes that stoning is appropriate for adultery and other offenses to religion.
Am I painting a picture here?
They would wipe out Judaism. Much like the Christians trying to convert all Jews to Christianity would do.
Well have not read his “Institutes” but have read several Gary North books and found the concepts very interesting.
“The Deliverer will come from Zion,
he will banish ungodliness from Jacob”;
27”and this will be my covenant with them
when I take away their sins.”
That's either a deliberate mistranslation or a misquote.
Isaiah 59 (JPS)
20 And a redeemer will come to Zion, and unto them that turn from transgression in Jacob, saith YHWH.
Isaiah 59 (NASB)
20 "A (1) Redeemer will come to Zion, And to those who (2) turn from transgression in Jacob," declares the LORD.
21 "As for Me, this is My covenant with them," says the LORD: "My Spirit which is upon you, and My words which I have put in your mouth shall not depart from your mouth, nor from the mouth of your offspring, nor from the mouth of your offspring's offspring," says the LORD, "from now and forever."
cross-references
Notice that the Redeemer will come TO Zion, NOT comes FROM Zion.
Notice also that the Redeemer goes to those that turn away from transgression/sin of their own ability, NOT a welfare type where someone else removes the sin from them for them.
Well done as usual!
B”H
Interesting point. RJR used to say, to find the god behind any culture, look for the source of its laws. For the Reconstructionist, you can't improve on The Big Ten. The additional 600+ "case laws" simply illustrate how to apply The Big Ten in a variety of situations. Anglo-American "common law" is -- the application of Biblical law to local situations over the course of 1,500 years. And what's wrong with that?
The dispensational believer, OTOH, asserts that we can dispense with some, or all, of The Big Ten. The dispie finds it onerous to study the 600-odd case laws -- but is totally cool with the federal government churning out a telephone-book's worth of new "laws" every day. Although they may not say so in so many words, the dispie views the Law of G-d as "what G-d believed before He evolved to OUR level of sophistication."
RJR would sometimes cite rabbinical commentaries when he strove to apply Torah to contemporary situations.
Speaking personally, encountering this perspective was like a second conversion. I embraced the concept that G-d rules the world around me, as well as the "world" within me. I suddenly had traction, the ability to make progress with my life, vocation, and family. As the Psalmist said, "O how I love Thy law. It is my meditation day and night."
One other point I forgot to mention is the meaning of the name, Jesus.
The name that is above all human names on Earth and above all the names of the heavenly host in Heaven, save the name of YHWH, is Yehoshuah or Yeshua, which literally means, “YHWH Saves” or, Yehovah Saves.
The Name Yehovah means, “Lord, Master” ... hence the phrase originating from the Abrahamic experience, Yehova Jireh, “The Lord will Provide”. The Lord will provide atonement for His People, just like He provided a ram for Abraham, through Faith.
A Jewish View of the Suffering Servant of Isaiah 52-53
by Alyza • 52:13-14 "Indeed, My servant shall prosper, be exalted and raised to great heights. Just as the many were appalled at him--so marred was his appearance, unlike that of man, his form, beyond human semblance--just so he shall startle many nations."
Israel is the servant of the L-RD spoken of here, always when the Hebrew is singular, it is corporate Israel that is being spoken of here, the people as a whole. Isaiah 41:8-9 says "But you, Israel, are my servant, Jacob whom I have chosen, the seed of Abraham my friend. You whom I have taken from the ends of the earth, and called you from its farthest corners, and said to you, You are my servant; I have chosen you, and [will] not cast you away." Isaiah 44:1-2 says "Yet now hear, O Jacob my servant; and Israel, whom I have chosen;. Thus says the L-RD who made you, and formed you from the womb, who will help you; Fear not, O Jacob, my servant; and you, Jeshurun, whom I have chosen.". Isaiah 44:21 again tells us that Israel is G-d's servant: "Remember these, O Jacob and Israel; for you are my servant; I have formed you; you are my servant; O Israel, you shall not be forgotten by me." Is important to note that the very next verse (44:22) says that, "I have blotted out, as a thick cloud, your transgressions, and, as a cloud, your sins; return to me; for I have redeemed you." G-d has already redeemed the Jews from our sins, all we have to do is return to Him, to follow His ways in the Torah--as it says in Psalm 32:5 "Then I acknowledged my sin to You; I did not cover up my guilt...and You forgave the guilt of my sin." Further references to Israel as G-d's servant are found in Isaiah 45:4, 48:20 and 49:3.
Now, let's look at the context of Isaiah 52-53 to see if the servant is also Israel there. The two chapters are connected, and form a continuous message. Isaiah 52:4-6 makes it clear that the servant is again Israel: "For thus says the L-RD G-d, My people went down the first time to Egypt to sojourn there; and the Assyrian oppressed them without cause. Now therefore, what have I here, says the L-RD, that My people is taken away for nothing? Those who rule over them howl, says the L-RD; and My Name continually every day is blasphemed. Therefore My people shall know My Name; therefore they shall know in that day that I am He who speaks; behold, here I am." Notice that a group of people is being spoken about (people is a collective singular here), one that was in Egypt and Assyria. That people is Israel.
In verse 13, that same people is spoken of as "My servant". Israel is indeed the servant spoken of here. G-d is telling us here that, in the end, Israel will prosper and take its rightful place in G-d's plan. But before that happens, Israel (i.e. the Jewish people) will be perceived as marred and unlike other men in appearance. We have been seen by others as demons, devils, rats, sub-human, virues. Our life to them has been cheap. When my dad was in basic training for the Korean war, a non-Jewish man from a different part of the country kept staring at him. My dad asked him why he was staring. The man asked my dad where his horns were, because he had been told all Jews had horns. The Jewish people have certainly been perceived as demonic by many, having horns and a tail. We have also be painted with enormous hooked noses and stooped backs, and perceived as having a odd, Jewish aroma. We have been painted as sacrificing Christian children to the "Devil" that controls us, and using the blood in our matzos. We have been accused of poisoning wells and desecrating hosts. Our skin has been used to make lamps, our hair to make cloth. To those who hate us, we are beyond human semblance. Many have been startled to find out we are not demons and have no horns.
Jesus, on the other hand, looked exactly like a man. There are no stories in the New Testament of Jesus astonishing people with his looks, with Jesus having horns, tails, and the like. This is not about Jesus, it is about Israel. Even after Jesus was scourged and hanging on the cross, all who saw him recognized him. On the other hand, how do you kill 6 million including 1.5 million children in gas chambers and ovens, unless you first made them non-human?
• Isaiah 52:15 "Just so he shall startled many nations. Kings shall be silenced because of him, For they shall see what has not been told them, Shall behold what they never have heard."
We startled many nations by our very survival when they thought we should disappear, but we did not. We have startled many nations by our importance, and by our major contributions to the world in many fields, beyond our small numbers. Such a reviled people, such a small people who, in their view to this very day, should not exist anymore, will come as a big surprise to many nations, many peoples. In the future, they will be surprised when they realize their mistake, that what they have been told is wrong--we are not demons, servants of the "Devil", a fossil who should disappear, rats or evil. They will be startled when they find out we are and have indeed been G-d's servant. When they see the truth, they will indeed be speechless, silent in the face of what they have believed, what they have done.
• Isaiah 53:1 "Who has believed our report? and to whom is the arm of the L-RD revealed?"
The arm of the L-RD is a metaphor used though out the Tanach to indicate G-d is taking direct action and for vindication. This same metaphor is used in Deuteronomy 5:15, "And remember that you were slaves in the land of Egypt, and that the L-RD your G-d brought you out from there with a mighty hand and with a stretched out arm;...". They will find the truth even if spoken by non-Jews hard to believe, hard to accept, but HaShem will vindicate us, the Jewish people.
• Isaiah 52:2 "For he grew up before Him as a tender plant, and as a root out of a dry ground; he had no form nor comeliness that we should look at him, there was no countenance that we should desire him."
They did not think us pleasing to look upon, but HaShem will favor us, our suffering will not endure forever. Indeed, Israel is like a trunk in arid ground, growing with the favor of HaShem. Isaiah uses the trunk metaphor (see Isaiah 6:12) to refer to the surviving remnant of Jews that will come out of Babylon purified, free from the dross of idolaters. Again, no one desired to look at us, seeing us as less than human, as ugly. Yet, before G-d, we are as a tender plant coming out of the dry bitter ground of the world. We are a light in the darkness. Corporate Israel, a singular entity, is the shoot and no one else. Jesus, for example, was not seen as ugly to look upon and gathered large crowds.
• Isaiah 53:3 "He is despised, shunned by men, a man of suffering, familiar with disease. As one who hid his face from us, he was despised, we held him of no account."
According to the NT, Jesus had large crowds of follower and was not shunned. Israel, on the other hand, certainly has been shunned. We have been kicked out of many countries, some more than once. The Romans kicked us out of our own land, renaming it, trying to make us disappear. Spain, England, Germany, France, Yemen, Saudi Arabia, etc. have all kicked us out. We have been shunned by men. We have been despised for many thing we have not done, and just because we are G-d's servant. The Syrian-Greeks despised us, and tried to destroy our religion, to make us worship their "gods". We have known much suffering: the rule of the Syrian-Greeks; the Roman with their forced labor, crucifixions of hundreds of thousands of Jews, and law forbidding us to learn or teach Torah; the Crusades; Inquisition; HaShoah (Holocaust); Dhimi status in Muslim countries; ghettos; expulsions; pogroms; job restrictions; slavery; etc... The ghettos were so packed that disease was a problem. In the concentration camps disease was rampant. Jesus was never shown as diseased. We have been held to be worthless, of no account by the non-Jewish world, we still are viewed in this way by many peoples and individuals. They cannot, did not, see our true face through their hate. This applies so much more to the suffering on the Jewish people at the hands of intolerant, ignorant, and bigoted people, than it ever could to Jesus. Again, I remind you that Isaiah is talking about Israel here when he is talking about My servant.
• Isaiah 53:4 "Yet it was our sickness that he was bearing, Our suffering that he endured. We accounted him plagued, smitten and afflicted by God;"
The sickness was in them, not us. We have bore the result of their sickness, we have suffered and continue to suffer because of them. They believed us cursed by G-d, their own books said so as did their leaders. The took it upon themselves to make sure that we suffered the curse they thought us to be under. It was they themselves who made us suffer, through their own free will. Many Jews continue to suffer at the hands of those who view us as cursed by G-d.
• Isaiah 53:5-6 says "But he was wounded because of our sins, crushed because of our iniquities. He bore the chastisement that made us whole, and by his bruises we were healed. We went astray like sheep, each going his own way; and the L-RD visited upon him the guilt of all of us."
Keep in mind that Israel is still the servant. Because of the sins of the non-Jews who persecuted us, we were crushed. We bore the chastisement that made many antisemites feel whole. The non-Jew did not treat others as they should have, straying from the Noachide law against murder. It appeared to many who arrayed themselves against the Jewish people that G-d was punishing the Jews, but it was really their own guilty actions that caused the suffering of G-d's servant Israel.
• Isaiah 53:7 "He was maltreated, yet he was submissive, he did not open his mouth; like sheep being led to slaughter, like a ewe, dumb before those who shear her, he did not open his mouth."
Jesus cried out, he opened his mouth during his trial. We were maltreated, but following the principle that if we were submissive it would all blow over and we would survive, the people would survive, we remained submissive throughout the millennia. In Nazi controlled Europe, to give a modern example, we again remained submissive, not knowing that relocation, another exile from another country like so many others before, was not all Germany had in mind. We were transported in cattle cars, like sheep to the slaughter. Like ewes who do not know they are going to be sheared, we did not know the fate that awaited us in the "relocation trains". We did not open our mouths.
• Isaiah 53:8 "By oppressive judgment he was taken away, who could describe his abode? For he was cut off from the land of the living through the sin of my [i.e. the non Jewish speakers] people, who deserved punishment."
They oppressed us, judged us guilty, and took us away. We, the Jewish people (Israel) were taken away by oppressive judgment (blood libel trials, pogroms, crusades, inquisition, anti-Jewish laws, the Shoah). We were murdered, cut off from the land of the living, because of their sins (ie the sin of murder, etc.) by non-Jews. It is they who murder who deserved the punishment they gave us unjustly. It was those who sinned and continue to sin against us, not us, the servant of G-d, who deserves to be punished.
• Isaiah 53:9 "And his grave was set among the wicked, and with the rich, in his death -- though he has done no injustice and spoken no falsehood."
The rich are often portrayed as wicked, so we are saying the same thing twice for emphasis. Israel (the Jewish people) have done nothing to merit the ill treatment we have received by the rest of the world, nonetheless, Jews were still buried in pits and mass graves. Holocaust Jews were slaughtered with Gypsies and homosexuals and shoved into pits with them. Jews were given the disrespectful burial of a wicked man. Our grave stones still removed to pave streets and latrines, still desecrated even here in America. From what I read in the NT, Jesus was given a decent burial in a nice tomb ALONE, by himself, not the disrespectful mass burial of wicked persons.
• Isaiah 53:10-12 says "But the L-RD chose to crush him by disease, that, if he made himself an offering for guilt, he might see offspring and have long life, and that through him the L-RD's purpose might prosper. Out of anguish he shall see it; he shall enjoy it to the full through his devotion. [G-d says:] 'My righteous servant makes the many righteous, it is their punishment that he bears; assuredly, I will give him the many as his portion, he shall receive the multitude as his spoil. For he exposed himself to death and was numbered among the sinners, whereas he bore the guilt of many and made intercession for sinners.'"
First of all, note that the servant (Israel) will have offspring and long life. Israel as a group has had many children and a long life. Jesus had no children and was put to death by the Romans when he was fairly young. This passage cannot be referring to Jesus. Christians will say this is “spiritual” children but the word for children here in Hebrew is Zerah and it NEVER means spiritual children, only physical children.
They believe that G-d was punishing us, that the L-RD "chose to crush" us "by disease". But it was their sins that made us suffer. We are G-d's servants, a light unto the nations, our role to bring the universal laws, morality to the world. Hitler's Germany rejected G-d's seven laws for all men (genesis 9), murdering the messenger, thinking that the message made Germany weak. For their guilt we suffered. The Jewish people has offered little resistance to the actions of our persecutors. We have born the brunt of their guilty actions. Yet, we are still devoted to HaShem and are fulfilling our role to be a light unto the nations, so that the nations may one day follow the Noachide laws ordained by G-d. Through our example, we are to make many people righteous, but we bear the punishment of the guilty in the meantime. We have been killed by many, dying with the Shema on our lips. We have been buried in pits as sinners, whereas the killers were the real sinners.
G-d will one day reward us, the nations will one day recognize our role. The nations have numbered us as sinner and murdered us because of their misguided beliefs. It is they that were guilty. We have ever prayed for the world, for the people of the nations in which we dwelt. In the end, all will stream to Mount Zion to worship, all will follow the seven laws of Noah, and "... In those days, ten men from nations of every tongue will take hold--they will take hold of every Jew by a corner of his cloak and say, 'Let us go with you, for we have heard that G-d is with you.'" (Zech. 8:23)
Proverb 21:21 "He who strives to do good and kind deeds attains life, success, and honor"
All quotes from Isaiah 52 and 53 are taken from: Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures. Philadelphia, Jerusalem: Jewish Publication Society, 1985.
Other quotes from the Tanakh come from either Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures. Philadelphia, Jerusalem: Jewish Publication Society, 1985. or The Davka Tanakh on CD-ROM
The Seven Laws of Noah According to traditional Judaism, G-d gave Noah and his family seven commandments to observe when he saved them from the flood. These commandments, referred to as the Noahic or Noahide commandments, are inferred from Genesis Ch. 9, and are as follows: 1) to establish courts of justice; 2) not to commit blasphemy; 3) not to commit idolatry; 4) not to commit incest and adultery; 5) not to commit bloodshed; 6) not to commit robbery; and 7) not to eat flesh cut from a living animal. These commandments are fairly simple and straightforward, and most of them are recognized by most of the world as sound moral principles.
These seven laws are fully enumerated in Tosefta Sanhedrin 9:4 and Talmud Sanhedrin 56a/b:
These are the primary Laws from which all other Laws are derived.
shalom
I wish I knew how to quote things, this would make this a lot easier.
Anyway, let’s get to this.
You stated that “Unlike you, I have never accused anyone of anti-semitism. And there is no objective evidence that so-called replacement theology is anti-semtitic. That’s a phony claim by modern dispensationalists who don’t like to have their assertions challenged. But they repeat their lies to no end.”
In this, I can say honestly that you were right and I was wrong. You, to the best of my knowledge, have never accused another Christian of Anti-Semitism in these debates. I thought that you had done so due to a faulty memory on my part and for that I do ask for your pardon and forgiveness. It was an honest mistake. Made in the heat of the moment, to be sure, but still just that; a mistake.
That being said, I reject your claim that Replacement Theology is not Anti-Semetic. We can, and I suspect will, discuss this in a later post but for the time being allow me to address your last post.
Furthermore, you stated “As for heretics, they usually take care of themselves, or hide and try to avoid unpleasant questions, e.g.,
Do you believe God has been/is/or will be in the future married to two different and distinct people?
Still waiting for an answer. Do you have some reason for not answering?”
I did answer this question, I just didn’t answer you. Bluntly put, I do believe that God the Father is married to Historical Israel while Christ is betrothed to and will be married to the Church. They are seperate persons of the Godhead and, as such, there is no problem with having two different persons married to two seperate peoples. Same God, different persons.
Again, you said in response to my claim that you have stated that God has divorced Israel and has/will marry the Church that “Fabrication. I never made any such statement.”
Yet by defending the article (Jerusalem, the Have-not Whore) from the Website (American Vision) that this thread was created about, you signal that not only do you agree with it, but you hold it to be the proper understanding of the Scriptures. That article states that God has divorced Israel and has/will marry the Church. Therefore by defending that article you have in affect stated that you agree with this line of reasoning.
The rest of your post can be summed up as this. While I had believed that you stated the things that I accused you of, including questioning the salvation of Dispensationals and accusing us of practicing a doctrine of satanic origin, you are correct in stating that you never did those things. I was, simply put, wrong. I can try to dress it up however I like, but the fact remains that, as I said before, my memory was faulty and I was wrong to rely on it instead of seeking out the proof first before I posted.
For that, I am truly and honestly sorry as I accused you falsely and I do ask your forgiveness in that matter. I still disagree with your intrepretation, but after researching the matter fully, I do have to admit that you haven’t challenged the salvation of other Christians.
That being said, quit calling me a heretic, especially when you’re trying to group me as well as other Dispys into the Marcion heresy. That isn’t even remotely close to how we view the matter. I fully understand what the Trinity is and how God can be one God but three Persons and that’s what I base my understanding of His relationship with Israel and the Church upon.
You know, I’ve often heard this accusation and while I have read a Schofield Bible, it’s been ages ago. How does it match up against other translations, such as the KJV or the NASB?
Actually RJR, I would say that this is a mischaracterization of Dispys. It’s not that we don’t believe in Laws, it’s that we believe that we cannot set up the Kingdom without the presense of the King and therefore Law/no-Law is not an issue for us as we’re focused on preparing for His return. We were told to occupy till his return, not to conquer in His name and then present it to Him, that’s what will happen when He establishes His throne again in Jerusalem.
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