Posted on 01/21/2011 2:42:59 PM PST by wmfights
I am very familiar with the context. Paul was not recreating a legal code, but rather applying broad Christian concepts to the practices of the Jews. In doing so he contextually referenced willful sin as not being absolved by the blood of sacrificial animals. The characterization of sin as a willful act was presented as a given.
Ah, but all sins past present and future went to the cross with Jesus. A Christian has effectively been pardoned for his future sins as well.
So can a Christian commit sin with impunity? Hardly. A Christian "has been bought with a price". And he has been "adopted". If a Christian commits sin, he may well find himself being chastised by God, but it will not affect his salvation. Nothing can change his "adopted" status.
The prophet Joel wrote that God would write his laws on their hearts and they would never leave him. Jesus said, He would never drive them away. Paul said that "He is able to keep that which I've committed, until Him against that day."
We won't leave Him, He won't drive us away. And our salvation is firmly in His hands, not ours. Because of the pardon, in one sense we have been "perfected forever". But we can certainly still sin, as Paul clearly communicated he still struggled with his old nature.
Hbr 10:14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.
You make accepting the gift of salvation, sound like work. It is not "work" to accept a gift. Nor does a "free gift" become a "reward" merely because you accept it."
Jesus' words in the Gospel according to John disagree with you, my FRiend. Chap. 6:44 and again in :65, Jesus makes it clear that, "No man CAN come to Me, unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day." Unless you are a universalist, you must admit not everyone will be raised up on the last day. Thus, if anyone is left, then Jesus must be arguing that not everyone will be drawn. But, even more importantly, if you are drawn, you will be raised up.
This is part of the very foundational views of the Reformation, the Irresistible Grace of God. When He sets His sights on a man, that grace begins to impinge upon the heart until it cannot resist the drawing to confess and believe. This Amazing Grace is not something we induce, request, assist, or even are aware of in the early stages as God's Spirit adopts us, regenerates us, thus making us alive to the fact we are beiing rescued.
And I certainly do not want to imply this is a "work". The glory of the Gospel is that it is truly not a "work" of any kind on our part. Not a decision, not a commitment, not a prayer, not a ceremony, not an acquiescence to a creed, not a joining to a group...nothing. It begins by God raising us from the dead, while we are at war with Him, and clothing us in the righteousness of His Son. This He has promised to do for those elect before the foundation of the world (Eph. 1). Then, and only then, do we begin to recognize what is happening to us as our hearts of stone have been replaced by hearts of flesh (Ezekiel 36:26).
This is what the Scriptures means by being "born again". Just as you had no conscious part of being born the first time, you cannot elect to be born again. Should a man respond and repent (change his mind)? Certainly, but which has happened first...the adoption or the change in thinking? According to Paul, the change in thinking is a product of the adoption. This is a crucial distinction and separates believers from religionists. And, this is precisely why the Gospel is such good news. There is no "work" for me to do, no work I can do.
Should I try to grow as a beleiver afterward? Absolutely. But, even this is the work of God. Phil. 2:12, 13 "...work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, for it is God at work in you both to WILL and DO for His good pleasure." Who exactly is inducing the "work" here?
No man can come to Jesus unless the Father draws him. But that doesn't say that everyone the Father draws will come. God tries to draw all men. Some just won't respond.
2Pe 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.
It doesn't sound like we disagree all that much. I firmly believe in the Blessed Assurance that once the Lord has us in His hand nothing can pull us away.
So it seems where our views differ is prior to that point where we believe The Gospel and are saved. If this is the case why does the individual have free will before and not after?
Reading you post is better than a lot of Bible studies I’ve been to. thanks again.
So Hitler's sins, by virtue of his baptism, was pardoned for his future sins and was therefore under no obligation to alter his behavior? Go figure......
Um, kinda dishonest of you to change the central tenant: “So Hitler’s sins, by virtue of his baptism, was pardoned for his future sins and was therefore under no obligation to alter his behavior?” I don’t see where DannyTN stated that baptism caused the pardoning of sin.
The author made a good point that had not occurred to me before in reference to the "all". He pointed out that from the Jewish perspective the Messiah was strictly for them, that from their view there was no consideration of "all" including Gentiles. However, it's clear in the NT that through Jesus Christ "all" meaning Gentiles as well are to be saved, IF they believe The Gospel.
IOW, we should be thinking the word "all" means people from every nation, but not all people of the Earth.
There is no place in the Scriptures which claim that man has no "will". That is, if by the definition of "will" you mean a perception that the man/woman is making a decision to do things. The underlying question is, "Is this 'will' being conditioned, managed, guided by God or is the man an entity with complete freedom in this decision making?" The answer Scripture provides is, "There is nothing without the direct influence of God's management."
All of the admonitions to, "...do this, do that..." may seem to imply to you that there must be "freedom" to accompany the request or they would be meaningless. Sorry, this is your misunderstanding. The entire point of the Mosaic Law was to demonstrate the inability of the Jews to be holy. Irrespective of effort, intent, piety, or work. Read Paul's epistles, especially Romans & Galations. God asked Israel many times to do something, all the while denying them the ability to perform. Why? To demonstrate their broken natures. And, the need for His intervention.
God is managing it all. But, if you believe I am arguing that this removes my guilt, let me assure you I am not. The Scripture is crystal clear...men will be held responsible in spite of the fact that He manages us into the sin.
And an uproarious argument against this claim is precisely what Paul anticipated he would hear from Roman congregations who read his letter (Chap. 9). "You will say to me then, 'Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?"
Paul's answer is sobering. Who exactly do you think you are to question God's right to do this? Are you God's judge? He can, and does, exactly as He wishes with each person, molding them, making them into vessels for honor...or destruction. Erase this material from your theology at your own peril.
Your premise that baptism saves you is false. Repentance and accepting Jesus as your savior is what saves you. Baptism is the first act of obedience and is symbolic of the salvation and new life that has already occurred.
But nevertheless, let's consider the possibilities of Hitler's salvation....
Suppose Hitler had repented of sin and accepted Jesus prior to his atrocities. It's really hard for me to imagine that anybody can get that confused after accepting Jesus. But let's keep in mind, King David, who clearly had a relationship with the Lord. King David committed adultery and murder and it took God sending a prophet to confront David before he would admit his sin. There were clear consequences to David's sin. But three or four chapters later we see God has so completely forgiven David that he calls him a man after His own heart. The consequences still followed David, but was David forgiven. Yes.
So would Hitler be forgiven had he accepted Jesus before committing his crimes? Yes he would. However, clearly Hitler's life was cut short. Not before much pain was inflicted on the world, but it was cut short.
Now let's suppose Hitler found salvation after committing his crimes. Could he have? Well, we have the Apostle Paul who prior to his conversion was known as Saul and was running around killing Christians and doing so in the name of God no less. So it's basically the same crime, Hitler just did it on a grander scale. So yes, I believe Hitler could have been saved. I don't think he was, but if the Lord dismissed his sin, I'm not going to argue about it. I'm just glad He dismissed mine. In fact, it doesn't even have to be the same crime to get lumped together. Jesus said if you have broken one part of the law, you have broken the whole law.
The thing that separates Judeo-Christianity from all other religions, is that other religions teach you have to be "good enough". Only Judeo-Christianity calls people to be perfect and holy. Only Judeo-Christianity teaches that you didn't qualify and so you need a Savior.
God doesn't judge on a bell curve of man's goodness. Where if you're better than Hitler, or better than average, you're ok. It doesn't matter whether you are Hitler or Mother Teresa, compared to God and his perfect holy standard, you stand condemned.
There are two ways to be perfect. Never sin, but scripture records that we all have, that none of us are righteous and all have fallen short of the glory of God. And 2) be forgiven. And the only plan to grant forgiveness requires Jesus.
The only thing God wouldn't allow Satan to do was kill Job. Satan took everything from Job and God allowed that to happen. Job remained obedient but he sure did his share of complaining go God about the things that were happening to him. Job is right when he insists upon his own virtue and innocence. But Job does go wrong when he thinks that God is doing all this to him on purpose, deliberately, with malice of forethought.
Thus God's answer to Job "Who is this that darkens counsel without knowledge? ... Where were you when I laid the foundations of the earth? ... when the morning stars sang together and all the sons of God shouted for joy?" [38:1-2,4a,7]
As I read Job during a particularly difficult time in my own life, I found our Father's answer to Job and his subsequent blessings on him particularly comforting. It's during the times of trial and tribulation that the Lord works wonders in our hearts and lives. We always come out better for it.
You are too kind, my brother.
This is an excellent point and demonstrates a very good hermeneutic. The author is looking at the entire argument of the biblical writer, not just a snippet to "proof-text".
I dissagree. I read that as God wills all people of the earth to come to repentance. He draws all people. He gives them time. But not all respond to His drawing.
I think this is why he is making such a good argument for his position.
BTW, I've really enjoyed some of your posts. I had to read Romans 9 after your last post. It's great when I'm reminded of what Scripture says. I've enjoyed the arguments from the other side as well because they've been well made.
Spot on. To which I'd add: If there's no such thing as free-will and all who are saved are already pre-destined, then exactly what is the point of our existence in the first place?
Would God have deliberately made mankind so flawed and incapable of choosing Him that He himself had to determine the outcomes of our existence?
And if that were true, then why is there evil in our world? Clearly a loving Father who just so happened to pre-determine everything would never allow evil in the world, would he?
Gracious comments. Thank you.
Must say, I have appreciated being in on some of the pinging to your posts over the past few weeks. Forgot to say, "Thanks."
You cannot even believe unless God has regenerated you. If that is the case then you are His, and that is irreversible. It is teh work in the heart not just simple mental ascent to the gospel that makes the difference.
Then why didn't all the world hear The Gospel. There are large areas of the earth that never heard The Gospel at the time of Christ, or in the centuries following. In fact there are still people who do not have a Bible translated into their native tongue. If Jesus Christ died for all people why is the process so slow getting The Gospel to all people so they can believe.
Secondly, if it's totally up to the individual to respond why do some respond and not others. I don't believe there are any studies that show Christians have a greater IQ than the rest of the population. What causes Christians to be wise enough to recognize their fallen state and need of a Savior?
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.