A Quick Ten-Step Refutation of Sola Scriptura

Catholic Fidelity.Com ^ | Dave Armstrong

[boatbums]

The supreme error in your less-than-creative story is both the firefighter and his father were human. To amuse you, though, I'll give you an answer. The one who put his life on the line to save mine is the savior. If the mayor of your pretend town was handing out an award for heroism in the incident, to whom do you think he should hand it to?

[boatbums]

Thank you for your courteous response. Just to clarify, I am no longer a Roman Catholic as I prayed for God to reveal the truth about him to me and he led me to a Sunday School teacher who showed me John 10:27-30, "My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me. I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all; no one can snatch them out of my Father’s hand. I and the Father are one."

From these verses, God opened my eyes to the truth of the Gospel that through faith in Jesus Christ I can HAVE eternal life and never be cast or plucked out of his hand. At the time, I had no reason at all to question the concept of the trinity and when Jesus used the phrase "my hand" and then "my Father's hand" and ended with "I and the Father are one", I understood or believed what he said. I started attending a non-denominational, Bible believing church and then attended and graduated from a Non-Denom Bible College. What I came to understand regarding the Trinity is, first of all, we cannot really grasp the entire truth of it with our finite, mortal minds. It is just too complex and immense to comprehend but what we have been told from Scripture must be understood in its entirety.

I believe Jesus Christ is Almighty God in the flesh, incarnate, God with us. Jesus is also called the Son of God and Son of Man and those titles have to do with both relationship and role but they are still one, true God. The Holy Spirit is also God and is manifested to us with a certain role, as well, but is still God. There is only one God who has revealed himself in three forms, so to speak, yet they are still all one - not just one in "purpose", but really one. Others have spent centuries trying to explain it all and I have no intention of repeating their views on this thread. Like I said, there are certain "mysteries" that we can only scratch the surface on understanding but I have faith that one day, when we "know as we are known", it will all make sense.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

I used a human firefighter as an example in my pretend town because I thought you would understood the training and equipment that made your husbands job possible. Aberrantly you didn’t take the time or care enough to learn about his job.

Without the equipment or training, the firefighter in my pretend town would either not entered the house to save you or parish along side you if he did. Either way you would have no savior and be dead.

The same with God, He devised a plan and His son carried out. BVB

[boatbums]

Oh, I understood your example very well. But certainly you must understand that someone who provides equipment, training, salaries, etc., is not the real savior of a person the firefighter rescued from perishing at the risk of his/her own life as well. Your fictitious benefactor is certainly to be thanked for his largess, but he was not the one going into the burning house. My husband used to say, “Who are the smart ones? The guys running into a burning building or the rats and roaches heading out?” :o)

And yes, God did devise the plan and then he came to earth as a man and fulfilled his promise, which WAS his plan.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

You say you left the Catholic Church but you didn't say why. Is that something you would be willing to share?

You quoted the scripture where He saws," I and the father are one and admitted you remembered it from the Catholic teaching as them being one.

Lets look at the times He makes that statement when He is praying for Himself, for His disciples and when He is praying for all believers which include you an I.

 

John 17:1-11 (New King James Version)

 

John 17

Jesus Prays for Himself

 ¹ Jesus spoke these words, lifted up His eyes to heaven, and said: “Father, the hour has come. Glorify Your Son, that Your Son also may glorify You, ² as You have given Him authority over all flesh, that He should^[a] give eternal life to as many as You have given Him. ³ And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent. ⁴ I have glorified You on the earth. I have finished the work which You have given Me to do. ⁵ And now, O Father, glorify Me together with Yourself, with the glory which I had with You before the world was.

Is Jesus lying when He prayed that we would understand that the Father is the only true God and Jesus is the Christ that He sent?

Jesus Prays for His Disciples

   
⁶ “I have manifested Your name to the men whom You have given Me out of the world. They were Yours, You gave them to Me, and they have kept Your word. ⁷ Now they have known that all things which You have given Me are from You. ⁸ For I have given to them the words which You have given Me; and they have received them, and have known surely that I came forth from You; and they have believed that You sent Me.
⁹ “I pray for them. I do not pray for the world but for those whom You have given Me, for they are Yours. ¹⁰ And all Mine are Yours, and Yours are Mine, and I am glorified in them. ¹¹ Now I am no longer in the world, but these are in the world, and I come to You. Holy Father, keep through Your name those whom You have given Me,^[b] that they may be one as We are. 

He is asking His Father to His Father to make the disciples one as they are one. Is He asking the Father to make them GOD. He would have to be asking with your definition of He and the Father's oneness.

Jesus Prays for All Believers

   
²⁰ “I do not pray for these alone, but also for those who will^[a] believe in Me through their word; ²¹ that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me. ²² And the glory which You gave Me I have given them, that they may be one just as We are one: ²³ I in them, and You in Me; that they may be made perfect in one, and that the world may know that You have sent Me, and have loved them as You have loved Me.
²⁴ “Father, I desire that they also whom You gave Me may be with Me where I am, that they may behold My glory which You have given Me; for You loved Me before the foundation of the world. ²⁵ O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me. ²⁶ And I have declared to them Your name, and will declare it, that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them.”

I can't see how anyone can read this and not understand He is asking the Father to give us the same anointing He gave Jesus. That is how we can have the mind of Christ allow His Spirit to guide us .

That is exactly what happened in Acts. They were doing God's will instead of man's will in God's name as we have now.   

 

John 8:13-18 John 8:13-18 (New King James Version)

Jesus Defends His Self-Witness

 
¹³ The Pharisees therefore said to Him, “You bear witness of Yourself; Your witness is not true.”
¹⁴ Jesus answered and said to them, “Even if I bear witness of Myself, My witness is true, for I know where I came from and where I am going; but you do not know where I come from and where I am going. ¹⁵ You judge according to the flesh; I judge no one. ¹⁶ And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me. ¹⁷ It is also written in your law that the testimony of two men is true. ¹⁸ I am One who bears witness of Myself, and the Father who sent Me bears witness of Me.” 

If they are not two separate entities as Jesus claims, is He lying?

From your post.

What I came to understand regarding the Trinity is, first of all, we cannot really grasp the entire truth of it with our finite, mortal minds. It is just too complex and immense to comprehend but what we have been told from Scripture must be understood in its entirety.

Others have spent centuries trying to explain it all and I have no intention of repeating their views on this thread. Like I said, there are certain "mysteries" that we can only scratch the surface on understanding but I have faith that one day, when we "know as we are known", it will all make sense.

I contend this is all from the father of lies and deception.

Lets look at a couple of times Jesus spoke of how we are to understand Him.

 

Mark 10:14-15 (New King James Version)

¹⁴ But when Jesus saw it, He was greatly displeased and said to them, “Let the little children come to Me, and do not forbid them; for of such is the kingdom of God. ¹⁵ Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

Luke 18:16-17 (New King James Version)

^{16 But Jesus called them to Him and said, "Let the little children come to Me and do not forbid them such is the kingdom of God  17} Assuredly, I say to you, whoever does not receive the kingdom of God as a little child will by no means enter it.”

God says He sent his Son to die for my sins and is at His right hand interceding for me. It was good enough for me when I was a little kid as I stated earlier. I see no reason to believe different now.?

Thanks for the conversation and God bless you. BVB

 

 

 

 

 

[boatbums]

I left the Catholic Church when I realized that I had never been told the truth about how we are saved. In the various and sundry discussions I have had with Catholic Freepers, I have yet to see that this has changed. There is still a veil over the eyes of everyone who cannot or will not accept that we are saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone. I have no leading from God to return to it.

I am well aware of all the verses you have provided, and I would like to know from you just exactly who or what you think Jesus actually is. I think we agree on why he came but I am not sure where you stand on this question of who/what about Jesus. If you would like to continue to discuss it, I am open. I have complete confidence in what and why I believe what I do about the who/what of Jesus and would be glad to share that as well.

Hope you have a blessed evening.

[Bobsvainbabblings]

Thanks again for the conversation. I am helping my bride watch our very busy 3 year old grandson to give his parents a break. We will be returning him later today and I will have the time to answer in more detail.

 

My post @ 559 makes it clear I think Jesus had to be exactly like Adam.

 

It was late when I posted after a day with Scout. I forgot to add this question to you.

 

How can a righteous God put a penalty of death as a sentence for us disagreeing with Him. Especially if we were incapable of doing so as He created us with free will?

 

That is the sin Adam committed. God told Adam he was not to eat of the tree. Satan convinced Adam to disagree with God.

 

The only way a fair and/or a righteous God could administer such a penalty is to prove that a man just like Adam was capable of that task.

 

I believe Jesus was that man.

 

Thanks again. Looking forward to your response. BVB  

[boatbums]

How can a righteous God put a penalty of death as a sentence for us disagreeing with Him. Especially if we were incapable of doing so as He created us with free will?

Sin is "missing the mark", not "disagreeing" with God. We do have a free will and with that free will, practically from our first breath we take, we exhibit it. You can see it in your own grandson that from his early months he was "me" centered. Remember his "terrible twos"? Three is probably still in that stage. As much as you love him, you know he is human and, by his own will, he has resisted correction, insisted on his own way, and, even now, is developing the traits of sinfulness. Nobody has to teach us, we figure it out on our own.

That is the sin Adam committed. God told Adam he was not to eat of the tree. Satan convinced Adam to disagree with God.

Satan's sin was pride - believing he could replace God. Satan convinced Eve to not believe God's words and he deceived her into thinking God was holding something back from her that would benefit her. "You will not die.",he told her, "He knows if you eat it, you will be like gods, knowing good from evil." So Eve took the fruit and ate it and gave it to Adam and he ate it, too. It was far more than a "disagreement" with God. It was doubting him, disbelieving him, and wanting something you cannot have. We are all guilty of those very things. And God calls this disobedience "sin".

The only way a fair and/or a righteous God could administer such a penalty is to prove that a man just like Adam was capable of that task.

No, a just and holy God cannot allow sin in his presence. He cannot look upon sin. All throughout the Old Testament times, God was showing man the devastating result of his sin and that the penalty for sin is death. When God made clothing of animal skins for Adam and Eve as they left the Garden, he was, even then, demonstrating that death, shedding of blood, was needed. Both Cain and Abel knew that sacrifices were required by God. Cain offered up his fruits and vegetables but Abel offered up an animal. God accepted Abel's offering and not Cain's because he required a blood offering for sin. Cain offered instead what he wanted and disobeyed God.

No human could ever live a perfect life because the sin nature that started with our first parents was handed down to us, "for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God" (Rom. 3:23). In Leviticus 17:11, we hear, "For the life of the flesh is in the blood, and I have given it to you upon the altar to make atonement for your souls; for it is the blood that makes atonement for the soul.". The purpose of Jesus Christ was not to show anyone that a human can attained perfection, it was for God himself to make atonement for all our souls. Only a God/man could live a perfect sinless life and offer that life, shed his blood, in payment for all of our sins. If Jesus was merely a man, he could not make atonement for anyone's sins but his own. This was the only way we could be redeemed, by having the "Lamb of God" sacrificed in our place, to be the propitiation for our sins.

I believe Jesus was that man.

I believe Jesus was way more than a man who happened to be perfect, he was God himself, incarnate, in the flesh, so that he may redeem all who place their trust in him.

I John 5:20
And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us an understanding, that we may know Him who is true; and we are in Him who is true, in His Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God and eternal life.