Posted on 12/28/2010 9:35:02 AM PST by wmfights
I guess that rules out prayers like this one....
Prayer to Saint Michael
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Prayer_to_Saint_Michael
It's quite amazing how often Jesus repeated and re-framed his approcah to prepare the deciples for His death...they just didn't get it for quite some time. Enough can't be said about the resurrection...for it was after this many of the truths became clear to them. I think the same is for us...without the ressurection there is no Christianity. When we really grasp 'HE IS ALIVE'...it changes everything in how we see life and death...and pretty much everything else.
Also** he that does the will of my father,** it seems we can and should approach The Father as we would our own father who loves us Unconditionally. Jesus turned all to His Father, so that we can pray to him without fear. I don't think Jesus ever said, you must come to me first than to the Father...He broke the wall that kept us from His Heavely Father so we could approach with love and humility, not demanding but assured that Our Heavenly father hears our prayers...and answers them in the way best for us...
I may be misunderstanding some, but it is as if we approach Jesus to ask our Father. He taught us to pray the Our Father and to approach father as we would our own good father on earth...love, respect, humility, not as a bragging child that expects to get everything he wants just because he wants it.....But we are to ask in Jesus name, that puts the period to the fact that we approach via Jesus.
Plese point out my error, I would be interested to knowing it...
Perhaps those that were told by Jesus I knew you not, were not doing the will of the father, but what they felt would be get them a free ticket into heaven....
I alway remember its the Father that makes out the invitations, not even Jesus as its His Wedding..And the bride has been given to him by his Father...
Doesn't Jesus say no one comes to him unless the Father draws them to him and they then belong to Jesus...
I read some of these threads and they just confuse as each see's things differently..
Don't confuse what I am writting as putting Jesus our of the loop, but it seems some are putting the Father out of the loop. And Jesus didn't do that...
Just as some of the threads I find confusing, some will probably find my confusing. sorry about that, its the best I can do....
The confusion should not be for those who know that Jesus IS God.
If on earth Jesus even prayed to the father, he and the father are different or we have a man praying to himself in the garden.
I stated that reading some of the threads are what causes confusion.
Well now that would depend on which version of how that prayer came about, catholic writiers storys vary as with many cases of reported incidents....then someone decides which one looks the best and it’s a go....which for that alone says it’s bogus.
So yes indeed...it rules out any prayer to an angel...which if people do they have de-throned Christ..yet again.
As I said, they may be the same but are different or else Jesus would not have prayed in the garden...to say they are one as we think of one, than Jesus would have to have been praying to himself and thats not what I believe happened in the garden. I do not believe he prayed to himself. therefore He and the father are One in a way we don't understand..
It is fruitless to try and seperate the two. That's like asking a father ,and a husband who is also a brother, in a family... to be someone other than He is... he is all three yet one but each operates differently among the family
“Angels never appear as a mediator between man and God. We are never to pray to an angel, or say, “take this request back to God.” Christ alone is the bridge between God and man.
An angel, will never draw attention to himself, but will always direct people to give the glory to God. Angels are not independent messengers who seek to run errands for us. They come only when sent and give the message they have been given. If they do help us, it is their intention to remain unseen so that God might be glorified.
The sender is always more important than the messenger. Angels, like pastors of churches, are of secondary importance. Angels are never, in the Scriptures, to detract from the glory of God; they are to enhance His glory and make people wonder at it.”
The above is also from the article and worth reading further. I agree with this completely.
Thank you, that makes sense to me....
What an interesting thread this is!
This is an interesting read...more from Wmfights article not posted.
The Similarity Between Good and Bad Angels
It is not always possible for us to tell the difference between good and bad angels. The evil angels are willing to make as many concessions as possible to deceive the unwary. The angels of darkness turn themselves into angels of light so that people will be confused about their real identity.
1. Evil angels are willing to mouth solid, evangelical doctrine. When Christ was in the synagogue in Capernaum He met a man with an unclean spirit, who, when confronted by Christ cried out, “What business do we have with each other, Jesus of Nazareth? Have You come to destroy us? I know who You are — the Holy One of God!” (Mark 1:24). This demon, in effect, could sign an evangelical statement of faith that affirmed that Christ was Jesus of Nazareth, “the Holy One of God.”
What is more, demons confessed that Christ was the Son of God. “What business do we have with each other, Jesus, Son of the Most High God? I implore You by God, do not torment me!” (Mark 5:7). These are the words of a demon responding to Christ’s command to leave the demented man. These demons, could, in effect, sign an evangelical statement of faith that affirmed that Christ was “The Holy One Of God,” or “The Son of the Most High God.”
Of course demons do not make such admissions willingly, or gladly. But when in the presence of Christ, or when attempting to deceive others they will confess to the truths of sound doctrine. Yes, they are capable of appearing and quoting “Hear O Israel, the Lord our God is One Lord” if the words will deceive one of their victims.
2. Evil angels will duplicate the miracles of Christ. Paul warned that Satan would come with “all power and signs and false wonders” (2 Thessalonians 2:9). Not every miracle is from God; not every beneficial intervention comes from the good angels. Evil angels will do all the helpful miracles they can if it serves their long-term goals, namely diverting people from the purity of the Gospel of Christ.
A man who was healed from a serious disease in a so-called healing meeting, discovered that he inherited “demonic darkness”, that is, a persistent sense that he now had an evil presence near him. When he rebuked Satan, the emotional and spiritual cloud left him, but his disease returned. We should not be surprised that healings occur in all the religions of the world. Satan is willing to give something that appears good in exchange for blind allegiance.
3. Evil angels use “super apostles” who present themselves as experts in spirituality. They convincingly lead people to believe that all people have, within themselves, the power to find God; they can have direct contact with God by following the right techniques.
These apostles invite people to come to God “just as they are” not to be cleansed and forgiven, but to be accepted on the basis of their own merit as humans. They are to come to receive the help they deserve. God delights to make contact with His creatures, if only they will desire it. “Come one and all” and “come in your own way.” And so we come once again to the grand lie: anyone can make contact with God without a mediator, without a God-appointed sacrifice and without blood.
....Continued....as this is really a good read....Metmom note #3....
Telling The Difference
So the question is: how do we interpret the dramatic rescues, the healings and the help given to people who are in desperate straits?
What do we say about the accounts of ‘divine interventions’ of heavenly beings that make everything turn out just right, regardless of what people believe about Christ?
Think through the following:
1. God’s good angels are given assignments limited to the people of God. They are not sent indiscriminately to all men and women. “Are they not all ministering spirits, sent out to render service for the sake of those who will inherit salvation” (Hebrews 1:14). Thus, we have the function of angels defined for us in Scripture. If angels are ever sent to those who refuse to accept Christ and therefore “will not inherit salvation,” we have no account of it in Scripture.
2. God’s good angels participate in acts of judgment for the unconverted.
Yes, angels are sometimes sent to the unconverted, but only to judge them. We think immediately of the angels that visited with Abraham had the responsibility of executing judgment on Sodom and Gomorrah. Angels did help Lot escape the city, but only because he was a believer in Jehovah and therefore a “righteous man” (2 Peter 2:7).
Repeatedly, in the book of Revelation, angels are directly involved in executing the judgment of those who have not come under the protection of Christ’s sacrifice. For example, in chapter 14 a succession of angels comes announcing judgment. One warns that if anyone worships the beast “he also will drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is mixed in full strength in the cup of His anger; and he will be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb” (Revelation 14:10). The angel that followed announced the impending judgment and the next angel executed it.
Read carefully,...... “Then another angel, the one who has power over fire, came out from the altar; and he called with a loud voice to him who had the sharp sickle, saying ‘Put in your sharp sickle, and gather the clusters from the vine of the earth, because her grapes are ripe’” (v.18)
Then notice what this angel does........“So the angel swung his sickle to the earth and gathered the clusters from the vine of the earth, and threw them into the great wine press of the wrath of God” (v.19). Later in the book, an angel invites the birds in midheaven to eat the flesh of kings, commanders, and mighty men (19:17,18) now that God has destroyed them in judgment.
3. Evil angels have all of the essential powers of good angels. Therefore evil angels perform many similar assignments as those of good angels for their evil master, Satan. Think of the awesome “victory” (albeit temporary) Satan wins when millions of people mistake his intervention into human lives as the intervention of God and His angels!
Remember, Satan’s goal is not to create as much misery as he can on planet earth; he is willing to do some good things while keeping his eventual goals in sight. His primary objective is to spread false doctrine, to reinforce the idea that God can be approached directly without a mediator, an acceptable sacrifice and blood. He does not mind if people believe in God, in supernatural occurrences and miracles. Indeed, these serve his purpose very well.
If you are a Catholic, Satan will appear as Mary; if you are a Protestant, he will appear as Christ and if you are a Hindu, he will appear as Krishna. Now that Princess Diana has become a international icon and a religious symbol, reportedly there are sightings of her, too. Satan will take whatever form expected to keep people shielded from the Gospel of Christ. It is naive to say, as some do, that these stories must be the work of good angels because the miracles are good and beneficial. We must boldly say that “good” miracles can be done by “bad” angels.
The famous spiritist, Emanuel Swedenborg recognized the difficulty of distinguishing good angels and bad. After years of spiritism, he wrote, “When spirits begin to speak with a man, he ought to beware that he believes nothing whatever from them; for they say almost anything...they would tell so many lies, and indeed with solemn affirmation, that a man would be astonished...if a man listens and believes, they press on and deceive, and seduce in [many] ways.” Note 2
Please do not forget the great sin of our time: the belief that God can be approached without a mediator, without an acceptable sacrifice and without blood.
Only the full biblical message can combat the rampant spirituality of our times; a spirituality that is a substitute for the Gospel of Christ. The fear that Paul had for the saints in Corinth should be ours today, “But I am afraid, lest as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ” (2 Corinthians 11:3).
Millions are deceived by angels whose presence preaches “another gospel.” As Paul warns, “But even though we, or an angel in heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we have preached to you, let him be accursed” (Galatians 1:8).
Let us remember that angels do not always get their theology straight!
C. S. Lewis says much the same in The Screwtape Letters.
C. S. Lewis says much the same in The Screwtape Letters.
Basically, Satan does not care if we die happy and comfortable, as long as we die lost.
He’d much rather inflict misery and suffering and pain, but if avoiding those can lull someone into complacency so that they don’t see the need for Christ, he’ll use happiness and comfort to do it.
Prayer to Saint Michael
What a great illustration. The prayer by itself seems pretty harmless and in some ways reverent. However, why pray to the Angel when you should go straight to the Father through the Son.
Notice how the church that promotes this type of thing also bows down to statues and prays to them? The point being when something like praying to Angels starts it doesn't stop there.
I love reading Pastor Lutzer as well. I believe that's in the 2nd Chapter. I'm going to print all 10-12 (?) Chapters individually because they are long and most people don't have the time to read more than one Chapter at a time.
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