What unmitigated trouble makeing
whining to the authority on no grounds
NONSENSE.
Posted on 12/05/2010 6:14:57 PM PST by RnMomof7
. Saints DO pray for us: Apocalypse 5:8
And when he had opened the book, the four living creatures, and the four and twenty ancients fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints
That does not logically follow.
Certainly not necessarily.
The image and reality from the words just as logically means
that Christian Believers on earth have their prayers bottled up in Heaven in a treasured, memorial, ceremonial way for later ceremonial use as well as the timely answer regarding the original time and prayer.
He hates
HIS WORD
being trashed in behalf of some heretical idolatrous blasphemous caricature in Mom’s name
FAR FAR FAR WORSE.
CHRIST’S VERY STRONG assertions (in that cultural context) when folks said his mother and BROTHERS AND SISTERS were waiting to see Him
make that very clear, for those with eyes to see and ears to hear.
Did it ever occur to Catholics that it could just have been that Mary went to Jesus about the wine not knowing HOW He was going to handle it? We can look at it in hindsight but that colors our perspective. Try putting yourself in that situation without any preconceived notions of what was going to happen
What denomination are you? Do you go to church?
It is my understanding that the main objection from Orthodoxy arises not from the idea that it means Mary is elevated to the status of goddess by the doctrine. (Which I have never come across in any readings about disagreements between Orthodox and Catholics on the doctrine). But from our Churches differing views on the doctrine of Original sin.
On original sin the CCC reads “Although it is proper to each individual,295 original sin does not have the character of a personal fault in any of Adam’s descendants. It is a deprivation of original holiness and justice, but human nature has not been totally corrupted: it is wounded in the natural powers proper to it, subject to ignorance, suffering and the dominion of death, and inclined to sin - an inclination to evil that is called concupiscence”. Baptism, by imparting the life of Christ’s grace, erases original sin and turns a man back towards God, but the consequences for nature, weakened and inclined to evil, persist in man and summon him to spiritual battle.”
This is in contrast to the Reformed doctrine of total depravity. If we did hold to a doctrine of total depravity than yes the IC would be necessary so that Jesus would not be tainted. But that is not the reasoning behind the Doctrine.
As for the Doctrine being declared late meaning it was a new teaching or belief history demonstrates otherwise. It had long been believed that BVM was free from personal sin. Several fathers suggest she was wholly without sin, personal or original. But that was not universally agreed upon. The question was if she was indeed “full of grace” how was she preserved from original sin? The debate between theologians attempted to give an answer to that question. The one thing that was agreed upon was that Mary needed Jesus to save her.
It does leave one wondering....
Although they do have outs for dealing with it.
.
INDEED.
However, in the Vatican Alice in Wonderland School of Theology and Reality Mangling RUBBERIZED pseudo-BIBLE, that verse reads:
II Mary 3:23
[23] For all (EXCEPT FOR MARY; & except for various altar boy exercise trainers and their hierarchical protectors, until they get caught )have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
What was the purpose of the apostles? To teach scriptures? Write Scriptures? To hand down the Lords messages? Could only those messages have been in writing form?
You for one.
So someone post Jam instead of Jas.
BIG DEAL............
Is that all Catholics can go after someone about? Something like abbreviations and definitions?
What a red herring.
A mountain out of a molehill?
I thought it was a Mt Everest out of a sub atomic particle from a grain of sand on the beach.
This expounds some on that difference. It is from a Byzantine Catholic priest.
Anthony Dragani on the EWTN forum:
Immaculate Conception:
“Concerning the Eastern Catholic understanding of the Immaculate Conception, I will offer a very brief summary of the issue. First, the theological seeds of the Immaculate Conception originated in the East, and were later spread to the West. Since the earliest centuries the Eastern Churches have celebrated “St. Anne’s Conception of the Theotokos,” on December 9. Only later was this feast transplanted to the West, where it is celebrated on December 8.
In the Eastern Catholic Churches we have maintained much of the theological heritage of the Eastern Church Fathers. We try to be very Patristic in our theology, and generally model our theological approach after the great Eastern Fathers. In the West theology has developed somewhat differently. Beginning in the twelfth and thirteenth centuries a whole new style of theology developed, known as Scholasticism. Scholasticism utilized a great deal of philosophical terminology from the writings of Aristotle. It essentially created a whole new way to approach theological questions, and answered them with very specific philosophical terminology. Scholasticism was the dominant theological system in the Western Church until the beginning of the 20th century.
In 1854 Pope Pius IX solemnly proclaimed the dogma of the Immaculate Conception. Being a good Western theologian, he used a great deal of scholastic terminology in the definition. Here it is, with the specifically scholastic terms emphasized by me:
“We declare, pronounce and define that the doctrine which asserts that the Blessed Virgin Mary, from the first moment of her conception, by a singular grace and privilege of almighty God, and in view of the MERITS of Jesus Christ, Saviour of the human race, was preserved free from every STAIN of original sin is a doctrine revealed by God and, for this reason, must be firmly and constantly believed by all the faithful.”
There are two terms used in the definition that are completely foreign to Eastern Christian theology: “merits” and “stain.” Both of these terms are of very late origin, and came to mean very specific things in the scholastic system. But to us Eastern Christians, who still use only the theological expressions of the Church Fathers, these terms are completely alien. So is this a problem, or isn’t it?
I don’t believe that this a problem at all. If something is written in a language that you can’t understand, you simply TRANSLATE it! With some very basic knowledge of scholastic theological terminology, what Pope Pius IX is saying becomes very obvious: From the very first momemnt of her existence, Mary was miraculously preserved from all sin. We Easterns would go even a step further: she wasn’t just preserved from sin, but was graced with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.
Also, the definition speaks of Mary being “free from every stain of original sin.” In the East we have always spoken of Mary’s perfect holiness. The language “free from every stain of original sin” is really a somewhat negative formulation in comparison. In fact, this definition speaks of Mary as being “absent of something (the stain of sin),” while we would prefer to speak of her as being “full of something (the Holy Spirit).” In this regard I think that the Eastern approach makes a marvelous contribution to the understanding of this dogma. So does Pope John Paul II:
“In fact, the negative formulation of the Marian privilege, which resulted from the earlier controversies about original sin that arose in the West, must always be complemented by the positive expression of Mary’s holiness more explicitly stressed in the Eastern tradition.” (Pope John Paul II, General Audience June 12, 1996)
So, the Holy Father agrees that the Eastern understanding of the Immaculate Conception actually helps to elucidate the meaning behind the definition.”
The only teaching that we can be sure has been passed down correctly is the teaching that’s in the NT because there are manuscripts to which we can go back and refer to.
Anything else, ESPECIALLY something that was added or *discovered* years (decades, centuries) after the fact, is highly suspect.
There is simply NO WAY to verify that it had been handed down by word of mouth or tradition without error.
Yes, I wrote ‘the abbreviation is Jas. in the KJV, rather than JAM,’. That was all ... no put down.
A matter of fact. My reason for doing so was the semi ugly tone of the poster replying to a post how she/he should buy a Bible and then they would know JAM was for James. I for one did not. JAS. is the abbreviation I have seen for my lifetime. I am not Catholic nor do I have a Catholic Bible.
On a Christian thread it seems unchristian to have the tone that many of these responses have today..MOO
Be nice.
Now . . .
What religion are you....bet you don't answer straight.
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