Posted on 12/03/2010 4:14:50 PM PST by bibletruth
You failed massively, yes.
Where?
What “prohibition” are you claiming exists (and therefore damns to hell all Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans and others who actually follow Our Lord)?
What “prohibition” are you claiming exists (and therefore damns to hell all Catholics, Orthodox, Anglicans, Lutherans and others who actually follow Our Lord)?
(Second request!)
Because God has no mother, he is without beginning or end. Jesus the man had a mother, but Mary was nothing more than a vessel.
On that note, I like to offer the following regarding the Trintarian nature of God:
The following will be 'a way' to understand the notion of the trinitarian nature of the Deity, not a strictly Biblical or Catholic explanation, but one which is applicable to the teaching from the Bible. Here goes:
God The Father Almighty is greater than His creation, thus greater than dimension time and dimension space, thus we may think of The Father Almighty as beyond time and space but not prevented from touching and indeed penetrating His creation.
The universe of space and time is likened to a bubble: what is inside the bubble is in time and space. But the nature of what is inside the bubble is only partially understood in modern Physics.
The Bible relates scenes which defy the simplistic notions we use for assumptive science. We'll get to that 'assumptive' notion shortly, but let us make the statement that God The Father Almighty is as comfortable outside the bubble as He is inside the bubble.
Modern Physics has discovered that the balance of forces and tensions sustaining the universe necessary for human life to arise within the universe is extremely delicate, on the order of a mathematical improbability, represented as a 'one in less than' fraction so tiny that a one over a one followed by more than one-hundred zeros defines the probability that the whole thing remains in balance! Such a delicate balancing act is but one of the continuing 'works' of the Holy Spirit of God. It is by the Spirit of God, The Word, that the universe came into existence and it is said in the Bible that by His Spirit the whole is maintained [see 2Peter3].
But the Bible also states that The Word was with God in the beginning and was God. In the beginning of John's gospel we find that Jesus is The Word made flesh Who dwelt among us. So, inside the bubble Created by The Father Almighty, sustained by God The Holy Spirit, is the Word, God made flesh Who dwelt among us. The Creator does not stop being greater than His creation bubble, nor does His Spirit cease to sustain it all in balance, when Jesus comes in the flesh to dwell among us.
Here's an address to 'assumptive science limitations': Now, when one reads the Tanakh/Old Testament, one finds scenes like the fifth chapter of Daniel where a being is in one spacetime 'where/when' reaching into another 'where/when' to write on the palace party central wall of king Belshazzar. Just the forearm/hand is seen in the where/when of Belshazzar and the party folks, the rest of the being remains in 'another' where/when.
God The Father Almighty created this 'other' where/when, His Holy Spirit maintains its balance and separateness from our where/when, and Jesus has moved in and out of this other where/when: as shown when He resurrected from the tomb without rolling away the stone, just passing out of the tomb where/when, into 'another' where/when; then back into our where/when as He spoke to the women come to the sepulchre; and when He appeared in a locked and shuttered room with the disciples present; or appeared suddenly with the disciples walking on a road and broke bread with them then left our where/when to go to the 'other' where/when.
The trinitarian nature of God is shown in the Bible, even in the Tanakh. Trinity IS the nature of God as we have been given to know. Even in the Old Testament/Tanakh, we do have instruction on the Three nature of God as Creator, Sustainer, and Deliverer. God Is manifested as three yet one, seen identified by 'the work He is doing'.
With each manifestation, we are given to realize His presence simultaneously as Creator--because we exist in the realm He created, as Sustainer--because the balance is too delicate to stand alone without His sustaining the separation and interdependence, and as God with us in the person of Jesus our Lord and Savior.
Alright, you posted two prayers. What part of either do you object to?
>>>> So I did my own googling. Turns out Benedict was petitioned by 5 Cardinals to proclaim Mary “Mediatrix.” And he REFUSED.
>> Do you not see the irony in that? Here Catholics are all up in arms about how it’s being pointed out that Catholics consider Mary a “Mediatrix” and yet FIVE of their Cardinals petitioned for the very thing you guys deny the RCC teaches!!!!!!!
Not at all. The initial post relied on the very confusion that the Holy Father sought to avoid. From the get-go, I acknowledged the fact that Catholics believe that Mary mediates on our behalf to her Son, Christ. The problem is in the confusion with the sense of the word being used.
Christ alone redeems, so he alone is our Redeemer. Yet, there are is an order of priests called Redemptorists. They aren’t blaspheming; they are participating in the redemptive acts of Jesus be evangelizing to bring souls to Christ.
Likewise, the Church is very plain that the saints or Mary mediate on our behalf, they are not usurping Christ in mediating for us, they are subsisting in His mediation.
As Christians, we atone, we redeem, some of us shepherd, some of us father, we intercede, we advocate. But we are not Atonement; we are not the Good Shepherd, we are not the Father, we are not Intercessor, we are not the Advocate. There is one Atonement, one Good Shepherd, one Father, one Intercessor, and one Advocate. Whatever we do, is merely participation in the works of God; we accomplish none of these things on our own. We mediate, but we are not Mediator or Mediatrix. Why? Because it is confusing to call one another that, since we have one Mediator.
Apparently these Cardinals believed that the value of asserting Mary’s mediation outweighed the risk of confusion; the pope disagreed. He did not declare them heretics, but he affirmed in his prayers that she is a mediatrix on our behalf.
“Because God has no mother, ...”
Massive Fail, again!
An old heresy, long since settled. 1,600+ years ago this issue was debated ad nauseam. The Third Ecumenical Council met, listened to all the arguments, and then as the Apostolic successors, interpreted the language of both written Scripture and that which God gave His Church which had been and is held as Tradition to determine that Nestor and you are wrong.
The (written) word of God pierces our bodies and separates the soul and spirit from the joints and marrow...
The written words of God are alive...They are the voice of God...
While I'm certain you believe this, your assertion that the reference is to the written word (rhema) and not the living Word of God (Logos) is not supported by the original Greek.
Hebrews 4:12
λόγος τοῦ θεοῦ,
Logos of God = living Word of God
John 1:1
Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, ... καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.
In the beginning was the Logos (living Word) ... and the Logos (living Word) was God.
While it is true that there is much overlap in the usage of the terms rhema and Logos in the Greek New Testament, the inflexible assertion that this particular usage is exclusively to the written word requires interpretation.
Interpretation is the tool of cultists and tyrants... religious and otherwise.
The Bible, both Old and New Testaments, is divinely inspired but not itself divine. It is a tool given to us by God to lead us to a relationship with Him through Christ. The Old Testament pointed people who lived prior to Jesus forward to Him and the work He would do for humanity. The New Testament points those who were born after Christ back to the work He did for humanity. The purpose is the restoration of our relationship with God through the work and sacrifice of God through Jesus Christ. It is a tool. It is not to be worshiped.
Religious Jews in the time of Christ, especially the Pharisees, were so focused on the written word they were unable to recognize the living Word when He stood right in front of them healing the blind and feeding the thousands. Their elevation of the written word of God, the Old Testament at that time, was to make it into a religious club with which they could beat people into submission to them and their interpretation.
They truly had less interest their own relationship with God or in helping others to come to a restoration of their relationship with God than they did in winning the intellectual debate, being right and controlling others. Many Christian 'intellectuals' today share this same malady.
There are many spirits gone out into the world...Can we rely on the Holy Spirit alone to guide us???
Is the Holy Spirit God? Yes. Can God fail? No. So any failure of accurately hearing the Holy Spirit must be ours in the listening not His in the speaking. Because we are human we are prone to hear incorrectly, however. That's where verification with the Scripture enters.
How do we know it is the Holy Spirit guiding us?
Consistency. The Holy Spirit will not contradict the CLEAR teaching of Scripture. And CORRECT understanding of the Scripture will never contradict the leading of the Spirit.
God says to 'prove all things'...We must prove all things by the words of God, the scriptures...
The Scripture is exceedingly important in judging spiritual guidance. But it is not the only thing to be considered. There must be interaction with the Spirit, as well. Many cults have used intellectually based argumentation and twisting of Scripture to fit Their preconceived ideas.
An over emphasis on an intellectual understanding of The Bible will lead to cultish legalistic distortions, choking on a gnat and swallowing a camel. An over emphasis on a spiritual leading into the Christian life will lead to cultish metaphysical distortions, existential anarchy. I approach it like I do sailing. I know the direction but traveling in an exact straight line is impossible so I tack left a little and right a little, relying on both the Holy Spirit and Scripture.
If God wanted blind, strict, inerrant obedience 100% of the time, no discussion He could have made us automatons with no free will. But relationship is God's ultimate purpose. And relationship is not a one way street. It has ups and downs. It moves right and left. It's up to each person to choose their participation level.
Rom 8:14 & 15 "For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, these are children of God. For you didn’t receive the spirit of bondage again to fear, but you received the Spirit of adoption, by whom we cry, “Abba! Father!”
Led by the Spirit into relationship.
You should check out the Mormon church. I think you’d fit in well.
Really? Why?
Just a reminder of the falsehoods you use here:
RnMomof7, lecturing others on what words mean, says
The title of the pope is the VICAR of Christ.. The word Vicar means ANOTHER ..the pope is “another christ”
Of course she is wrong, but that isn’t a surprise. At least here is what Merriam-Webster says Vicar means:
Definition of VICAR
1
: one serving as a substitute or agent; specifically : an administrative deputy
2
: an ecclesiastical agent: as
a : a Church of England incumbent receiving a stipend but not the tithes of a parish
b : a member of the Episcopal clergy or laity who has charge of a mission or chapel
c : a member of the clergy who exercises a broad pastoral responsibility as the representative of a prelate
— vic·ar·ship noun
Protestants object to this , saying that there is only one mediator: 1 Tim 2:5. We agree that there are many ways in which Christ is the only mediator between God and man. 1) There is only one mediator who is such by very nature, being both true God and true man. 2) There is only one mediator whose whose work is necessary, without whom, in God's plan, there could be no salvation. 3) There is only one mediator who depends on no one else for power.Fr. Most has written a polemic, selecting portions of cherry-picked quotes to make his case, as we all do here. Yet even he took great pains to state that he is not saying what y'all are accusing Catholics of saying. And yet, for some reason, you saw fit to edit out those clarifications.Mary differs on all three counts. 1) Mary only a creature, but it was appropriate that God be freely choose her as Mediatrix because he had made her Mother of the God-man, the Redeemer--it was she who on behalf of the whole human race consented to God's plan of salvation by proclaiming herself the handmaid of the Lord. 2) Her role was not necessary, since Christ was and is the perfect Redeemer and the perfect Mediator. Rather, Mary was associated with her Son by the free decision of the Father, a decision which we cannot ignore. 3) Her whole ability to do anything comes entirely from her Son, and hence we are not contradicting Lumen gentium # 62 which says no creature can be ever counted together with Him.
Oh, don't get me wrong... I frequently will selectively grab a portion of a quote which makes my case. We all do that. Otherwise we'd have to wade through far too much superfluous information. But it's another thing altogether when what's edited out is the person denying the very points we're being accused of asserting.
I believe that the reason there is no Catholic systematic theological documents and no Catholic " infallible" commentary of the entire scriptures is because such a study would only point out that the doctrines that Rome holds to are not consistent with the contents of the scriptures. All their theology comes from a misreading of a handful of cherry picked proof texts..
The level of "hatred" for Luther and Calvin and all things that name the name of Christ is rooted in the hatred of a salvation not of mans making or through the "church"
It amazes me that so many generations after the reformation the church remains terrified to take an honest look at the doctrines of the reformers
“I believe that the reason there is no Catholic systematic theological ...”
ROTFLAMO! You are a hoot in your blarney Sweetie. Just like your false-to-fact claim as to the meaning of VICAR, that claim falls just as flat. Between the Catechism, the Councils and the many Concordances, every single bit of your heresies and falsehoods can be laid bare. Sad that you fail to even TRY and be honest in your twaddles.
It is only primitive superstition that leads anyone to believe that they will be "alive" in heaven or hell. There is no Scripture to support that you, you loved ones, and your favorite dog Sparky will be living on a cloud or anything similar to human life.
Scripture only supports that those who achieve (yes, I said achieve) Salvation will have their souls continue for eternity in the presence of the Lord. Those who are not saved will perish.
Not going to Rome...Rome is not my home nor is Rome the home of any Christian...My home is in heaven...
Eph 2:6 And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus:
And every human being, by accepting Christ and by being in a State of Grace can come to Our Father, in Person, in the Flesh at that Mass
Accepting a cracker into your stomach is not accepting Jesus into your soul...State of Grace??? Where's that, next to Massachusetts???
May the Blessing of Our Lord fall on all of us this wonderful season of Advent, as we all prepare to receive the King of Kings into our homes, our lives and our hearts.
How are you going to accomplish that??? The King of Kings and Lord of Lords is already in my home and has been since the day I received Him into my heart/soul as my Savior...But you're still waiting??? What's up with that??? You only get this blessing for that 20 minutes that the Lord is in your digestive tract???
I would also point out that Mary was never ASKED to consent to be the mother of Christ, she was told that she would be PERIOD
“I would also point out that Mary was never ASKED to consent to be the mother of Christ, she was told that she would be PERIOD.”
“Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee”
And Mary said: Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it done to me according to thy word. And the angel departed from her.
Tell us more about your odd view of the Word Sweetie - and more about you making up stuff, like what VICAR means!
Yawn. More ignorant bigotry on parade.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.