Posted on 11/30/2010 5:36:59 AM PST by kindred
Does it bother you at all that there is no evidence of any Christian, anywhere, prior to the 15th C (Maybe) interpreting scripture the way you do?
Do you really think the scriptures require no interpretive framework and that every reader must open them as if he were a blank slate?
You appear to be part of a narrow sectarian, enlightenment interpretive cult. This same inability to examine your own presuppositions - when extended to politics results in liberalism.
Let God be true and every man a liar...
[Your choice. As for me, I would never give up the true Gospel..]
Yea, and neither will I. And there are so many Protestant denominations who are apostate also. This is the course of mankind left to his own inventions. Again, I believe the Scriptures are the Word of God and that many traditons of today are lies when scrutenized by the Word of God.
One of us is wrong, God knows.
Welcome back (again).
:)
Fixed it.
“Now I realize that that attitude is just part of the mental illness that is anti-Catholicism.”
Not everyone who disagrees with you is “mentally ill”. To insist upon it just makes your position look weaker - i.e. you feel you have to demonize your opposition.
When you say you trust only the Scriptures, don’t you really mean that you trust only your interpretation of them?
1 And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. 4 But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, 5 Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved ;) 6 And hath raised us up together , and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: 7 That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast . 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them. 11
Ephesians 2:
Wherefore remember , that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; 12 That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: 13 But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ. 14 For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;
What Catholics don't understand is that people don't believe they are "evil" because they "Catholic". I know of many ex and current Catholics that are wonderful people.
It's what current Catholic believe that is troublesome - such as praying TO Mary who is just another dead sinner who can't hear you anyway. NO where can you "infer" that she is without sin as the Catholic Church bangs into their head through endless recitations of "Hail Mary". It truly doesn't matter how many times you say something - repetition doesn' t make it TRUE when it is FALSE.
For the moment I'll focus on the false teaching of elevating Mary to the position of Christ or very close to it. None of this is Biblical and further revealed in Scripture clarifies this false teaching about Mary.
Mary must have been a wonderful person otherwise God would not have chosen her as the vessel to give birth to Christ. Mary was WITH sin as ANY and ALL human beings since Adam and Eve are. Mary INHERITED their sinful nature as have ALL those before her to Adam and Eve.
To say Mary is WITHOUT sin is totally unBiblcial. Let's just take that a step further -> IF any mere mortal was capable of being "without sin", then Christ would NOT have had to lead a SINLESS life, die and rise again to atone for OUR sins. The punishment of sin is DEATH.
People have NO business suggesting Mary is without sin since it DETRACTS from the glory of God and what Christ did for us on the cross. Mary is NO "co-redeemer" and does NOT share in the redemption of sin when she herself is another sinner in need of Christ too!
When something, anything detracts and doesn't give GOD the GLORY, then it is false teachings. It's all about CHRIST; not Mary. Catholics are told to pray TO MARY to get close to Jesus. we pray to Mary so that we might grow closer to Jesus. Mary was NOT the "first disciple". Mary was barely mentioned in the Bible and did NO discipleship what so ever! She was a tad goofy and couldn't figure out where Jesus was when they LEFT CHRIST at the Temple when He debated with the Rabbis there. She didn't know what Christ was doing and was looking all over for Him and angry that He started His ministry WITHOUT her no less! Mary is hardly a mortal that has omnipresence, omnipotent or omniscient! Nor is there any evidence at all in the Bible that she developed those godly attributes in heaven!
So let's see what God's WORD, not fallible man's word has to say about Christ and His role to us.
Christ a Mediator
“And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant,” Hebrews 12:24 “
For there is ONE God, and ONE mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus;” 1Timothy 2:5. Notice the word - ONE mediator! He is not only God, but man; not only man, but God: a blessed reconciler of man to God, and of God to man. Galatians 4:4-5.
: No where does the BIBLE state Mary is either a mediator or an intercessor. God is very clear that CHRIST is the ONLY mediator. Not Mary and there is NOTHING unclear or in need of "inferring". Using Mary in these ways DETRACTS from Christ's individual and finished work on the cross. It is CHRIST that deserves all the glory according to God.
Now, who, according to God, NOT MAN, intercedes for us? Now, who intercedes for us?
Romans 8:26 and 27
[26] Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities: for we know not what we should pray for as we ought: but the Spirit itself maketh intercession for us with groanings which cannot be uttered.
[27] And he that searcheth the hearts knoweth what is the mind of the Spirit, because he maketh intercession for the saints according to the will of God.
: Mary is NOT God. Mary doesn't have the attributes of omnipresence, omnipotent or being omniscient. The Holy Spirt DOES and KNOWS how to approach the Father in heaven properly for us. If you don't believe ME, argue with God.
It is GOD that is stating this and I'm a just repeating it to clarify false teachings about Mary. Yes, show your "love" and insult me or condemn me for stating what GOD states in the Bible as truth. It dosn't bother me at all.
Isn't it odd how that "truth" doesn't match up with what the Catholic Church teaches you? Yes, they will mix in LIES with truth so something else they state may be true and keep you hooked. But I ask you this, when you mix FALSE teachings, such as those with about Mary with truth, you have a mess, to put it tactfully. In a true false table, T + F = F.
This is the old justification by Faith/Works argument. St. Paul in Romans 3:28 For we consider that a person is justified by faith apart from works of the law. Whereas in St. James 2:24 See how a person is justified by works and not by faith alone.
The bottom line is that these statements are compatible. Paul was railing against people who were so immersed in following the Law of Moses that they lost sight of God. People who do works for the sake of works fail.
James was saying that you cannot declare that you believe in God and then do nothing because you have been "saved" by your faith.
James 2:15-16 If a brother or sister has nothing to wear and has no food for the day, and one of you says to them, "Go in peace, keep warm, and eat well," but you do not give them the necessities of the body, what good is it?
Paul and James both support their compatible positions by quoting Abraham.
There is no issue with the position of the Catholic Church on Works vs Faith, IMO. There are issues outside of the Catholic Church usually raised by outsiders obsessed with the Church.
“Matt Slick believes in a God who declares sinners righteous without actually making them anything of the sort. Catholics believe in a God whose very word brings reality into existence, who justifies sinners, infuses righteousness purchased at the Cross into their souls, and makes them his adopted sons and daughters through grace.”
You regularly take to task people who, in your estimation, misrepresent Catholic theology - but you are doing the very same thing here. You are misrepresenting the Evangelical theology of justification.
Life is too short to waste wrangling over misunderstandings. Wouldn’t you be better off if you had an accurate view of Evangelical theology against which you could argue?
ROFL!!!!!
That must be a short "part" ...
Empty, actually.
Tell me, does the practice of the scribes and pharisees of contriving an accusation against Jesus, based on their interpretation of scripture, sound more like modern protestants, or catholics?
Pardon me, is that not exactly what you believe? Are you sure the people who taught you are Scripture believers. Because the Scriptures and many roman and protestant teaching are contrary to the Word of God and therefore are corrupt. Remember how that at the Lord Jesus first advent, so many dogmatic legalists like the Pharisees, etc. had turned the Word of God into the Word of man as the Lord Jesus warned them in His many warnings. And this just 1500 years after the Word of God given by Moses. Did not the Lord warn the Pharisees that their traditions were contrary to the Word of God given by Moses. Could it be the same today?
The Scriptures warn of such days by Paul the apostle. Search the Scriptures for in them you think you have life and they alone speak of Jesus as God the Father warned at the mount of transfiguration saying;
“This is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased, hear Him.”
I do not represent protest ism any more then roman Catholicism, The word of God is truth and many who have faith in their denomination as the way will be left behind, as the Scriptures teach.
Excellent post, you HATER /sarcasm
I don't hear this from Protestants.
working diligently to be faithful by begging and pleading for God’s mercy will be of no avail?
Tragically for Catholics like yourself ... God must have it wrong too! God doesn't state what the Catholic Church teaches.
Rom.3:28
[28] Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
Rom.5:1
[1] Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:
Christ must have had it wrong too since HIS teachings differ also from the Catholic Church. In this situation, you might be tempted to call Christ, the “liar”.
Luke 23:40-43
[40] But the other answering rebuked him, saying, Dost not thou fear God, seeing thou art in the same condemnation?
[41] And we indeed justly; for we receive the due reward of our deeds: but this man hath done nothing amiss. [42] And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.
[43] And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise. Did Jesus LIE? The thief didn't have time for your Sacrament of Baptism, Sacrament of Communion, Last Rites etc.. No! These are all useless man made rituals to keep you from a PERSONAL and DIRECT relationship with Christ.
It is all about the HEART! That deosn't mean that you don't have Communion or Baptism when you are OLDER and have the ABILITY to MAKE THAT INDIVIDUAL DECISION, but it DOES MEAN that WORKS, such as baptism and communion etc. won't SAVE YOU! BTW, an INFANT can't make that decision. It is ALWAYS a personal decision. It is YOUR HEART that is examined to see what your MOTIVATION is. I'd bet even you know "pew warmers" in your church. Pew warmers may appear pious and noble but like others in the Bible their HEART is far from HIM too.
Matt.15:8
[8] This people draweth nigh unto me with their mouth, and honoureth me with their lips; but their heart is far from me.
Robotic actions and motions are NOT what He seeks. He seeks YOUR HEART, just as He saw the HEART of the thief on the cross next to Him and assured him, he would be in paradise with Him. Christ doesn't lie.
I will not argue with you. I will simply point out Biblically truth and ask you to prayfully consider becoming a Christian.
Get a hold of yourself man. Your mouth sounds like a heathen.
Amen, Mary was a chosen and saved sinner as the Gospel of Luke declares when her mouth said;
Luke 1:
46 And Mary said , My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
41And it came to pass , that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said , Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo , as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed : for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 46 And Mary said , My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And it came to pass , that, when Elisabeth heard the salutation of Mary, the babe leaped in her womb; and Elisabeth was filled with the Holy Ghost: 42 And she spake out with a loud voice, and said , Blessed art thou among women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb. 43 And whence is this to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me? 44 For, lo , as soon as the voice of thy salutation sounded in mine ears, the babe leaped in my womb for joy. 45 And blessed is she that believed : for there shall be a performance of those things which were told her from the Lord. 46 And Mary said , My soul doth magnify the Lord, 47 And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour. 48 For he hath regarded the low estate of his handmaiden: for, behold , from henceforth all generations shall call me blessed . 49 For he that is mighty hath done to me great things; and holy is his name. 50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away . 54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. 56 And Mary abode with her about three months,50 And his mercy is on them that fear him from generation to generation. 51 He hath shewed strength with his arm; he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts. 52 He hath put down the mighty from their seats, and exalted them of low degree. 53 He hath filled the hungry with good things; and the rich he hath sent empty away . 54 He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance of his mercy; 55 As he spake to our fathers, to Abraham, and to his seed for ever. 56 And Mary abode with her about three months,
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