Posted on 11/21/2010 7:43:56 PM PST by bibletruth
And yet, that is exactly what calvinists do just to maintain their fairy tale.
So you are a universalist? If God wants EVERYONE to be saved and God is all powerful then under your view of the verse then everybody gets saved or God is not all powerful. You can't have it both ways.
As do armenians to maintain their position in the face of verses which clearly contradict it.
Think about that for a little while and try to see how silly that sounds. God does want everyone to be saved. God is all powerful. Everyone will not be saved.
I'm sure you can come up with a reasonable hypothesis that fits the above statements.
Personally, I don't know any Armenians. I can't tell you what they believe or if they all believe the same thing. I've never been there.
However, I am gladdened to see that you admit to ignoring some Scripture. The next step is to reconcile the Scripture you disagree with.
One can make up a hypothesis to rationalize anything. I prefer to reconcile scripture which I belief Calvinism does in the most persuasive manner.
As do you in the same breath.
I know many and consider them faithfull brothers in Christ. I just think they are wrong in their soteriology.
I don't ignore any Scripture. I fully believe that both election and free will are taught in Scripture and both are fully compatible.
you need me to copy and paste for you? here is the summary... confiscate their land...force them out of Europe... despise them...hate them.
Oh, OK...
I thought we were discussing theology. Apparently we have wandered into unfamiliar waters to you and thus explains the irrational outbursts. FWIW, you are helping the enemy when you attack the Saints of God.
So, the two of you disagree with Charles Spurgeon, who stated that God does desire that all men be saved? Do the two of you think you are greater Bible scholars than Spurgeon?
You hyper-Calvinists are also mistaken in claiming that a man making a decision to accept Christ as his Savior is an act of “work” simply because it requires a decision to accept Christ.
That’s about as much ‘work’ as saying “Thank you” to the person who plepared an elaborate meal for your enjoyment.
“The logical conclusion of your soteriology demands that you believe in a false God and thus are not saved.”
Interesting. I quote scripture and show why it says the opposite of what you say. You make no attempt to answer from scripture, but only decide that I’m not a Christian, and hurl insults.
“The Scriptures plainly state that all have sinned, are spiritually dead, doesn’t seeks after God or righteousness, that the natural man hates God, hates righteousness, loves his sin, can’t understand the Scriptures, thinks its foolish, is blinded by both God and Satan to the truth, and would prefer to be crushed by rocks than bow their knee to the LORD.”
Actually, Jesus said this:
11And he said, “There was a man who had two sons. 12And the younger of them said to his father, ‘Father, give me the share of property that is coming to me.’ And he divided his property between them. 13Not many days later, the younger son gathered all he had and took a journey into a far country, and there he squandered his property in reckless living. 14And when he had spent everything, a severe famine arose in that country, and he began to be in need. 15So he went and hired himself out to one of the citizens of that country, who sent him into his fields to feed pigs. 16And he was longing to be fed with the pods that the pigs ate, and no one gave him anything.
17”But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him, “Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you...
...21And the son said to him, ‘Father, I have sinned against heaven and before you. I am no longer worthy to be called your son.’ 22But the father said to his servants, ‘Bring quickly the best robe, and put it on him, and put a ring on his hand, and shoes on his feet. 23And bring the fattened calf and kill it, and let us eat and celebrate. 24For this my son was dead, and is alive again; he was lost, and is found.’ And they began to celebrate.” - Luke 15
Notice that Jesus calls the son “dead”, and yet while dead, “But when he came to himself, he said, ‘How many of my father’s hired servants have more than enough bread, but I perish here with hunger! 18I will arise and go to my father, and I will say to him”
I’ll repeat it: “But when he came to himself...I will arise and go to my father”
Dead doesn’t mean incapable of responding to God’s love, for the Prodigal Son was “DEAD”, yet he decided to repent and return. Jesus also calls us blind, sick, lost - none of which suggests the inability to respond to God’s offer of salvation.
“Yet the Arminian says despite John 1:13 that by his own power and will he overcame all of that and boldly declares through that sentiment that the Scriptures are a lie.”
What John 1 says is, “12But to all who did receive him, who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God, 13who were born, not of blood nor of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man, but of God.”
All who DID receive him, who BELIEVED in his name, BECOME the children of God by God’s will. We are not born again to belief, but believe to be born again. All who BELIEVED, BECOME.
The scripture defies your statement.
“it is impossible for the unregenerate to come to Christ because they hate Christ.”
Well, it is impossible to do so without repenting - but repent means to choose to do the opposite of what you have been doing. The command to repent means we have the ability to do so, and defy it at our risk.
“Born a Pharisee, Saved as an Arminian, Sanctified into Calvinism. For all we know you are at stage two.”
Odd, isn’t it. I’ve never met someone who believed as a Calvinist first. Nor have I any desire to be sanctified into Calvinism, for we are predestined to conform to the image of Christ. Not Calvin, Christ.
Are we saved by election, or faith? Jesus said, “16”For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. 17For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him. 18 Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe is condemned already, because he has not believed in the name of the only Son of God.”
And Paul said we are saved by grace thru faith, not grace thru election. There is not a passage is scripture that says we are saved by God prior to believing, or that we are saved by God’s election.
30Then he brought them out and said, “Sirs, what must I do to be saved?” 31And they said, “Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved, you and your household.” - Acts 16
Not be saved and believe!
“37Now when they heard this they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, “Brothers, what shall we do?” 38And Peter said to them, “Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. 39For the promise is for you and for your children and for all who are far off, everyone whom the Lord our God calls to himself.” 40And with many other words he bore witness and continued to exhort them, saying, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation.” - Acts 2
According to Calvin, Peter preached heresy at Pentecost. Would you explain why Peter preached that the Holy Spirit comes AFTER repentance, and isn’t given in order for man to repent? What did Peter mean when he said, “Save yourselves from this crooked generation”? If Calvin is right, we can do nothing. We can only wait for God to reveal his election, and then find out if we are saved. Yet that is taught nowhere in scripture...
Please show where Christ instituted the Bishop of Rome as His Vicar. It was, after all, a critical event, and so I’m sure the scripture reveals it plainly and explicitly.
Calvists have to either ignore [2 Peter 3:9] or else go through some extreme mental gymnastics to explain it away.
Wow. I didn't know that reading a passage in the context of its own paragraph was considered "extreme mental gymnastics". What do you call a hermeneutic that ignores all of the rules of context, forgets that one is reading a flawed paraphrased translation, and just jams in there an a priori meaning when it isn't justified?
Let me provide some clues.
2 Peter 1:1-2"To those who have received a faith of the same kind as ours, by the righteousness of our God and Savior, Jesus Christ...This is now, beloved, the second letter I am writing to you (3:1)... But do not let this one fact escape your notice, beloved (3:8)
Any guess to who the audience of this letter is? Now skipping past your choice in a flawed paraphrase, more faithful English translations say:
2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering toward us, not willing that any should perish but that all should come to repentance.
What promise is Peter referring to? Is this a promise made by God to everyone head-for-head? And if you foolishly claim that this promise to save is made to everyone, head-for-head, then you do indeed have a doctrine of universal salvation with only contradicting evidence for it. Furthermore, we have the word "us", and from a Calvinistic standpoint, the "us" is the audience to whom Peter writes this letter. Peter doesn't write this letter to the Reprobate because they couldn't understand it anyway and would consider it all foolish(1 Cor 2:14).
On the other hand, your mental gymnastics requires you to have a god that either contradicts Himself and provides universal salvation, or you have an impotent god that breaks his promises.
I actually love this passage because it tells us the exact conditions for when our LORD returns. Unlike the Dysfunctionalists who say that Israel has to do this, or the AntiChrist needs to do that, Peter simply tells us that our LORD will return when the last of the Elect is Redeemed.
Your doctrine teaches that God is an impotent failure who just happens to have good intentions but not the juice to pull it off. You can keep your doctrine, because it destroys all hope because salvation, in your scheme, is fully contingent on flawed and corrupted man with no help from God.
Ps 58:3 “The wicked are estranged from the womb; They go astray as soon as they are born, speaking lies.”
Does ESTRANGED mean incapable of responding or repenting? No. I’ve been estranged from people before, and one or both of us repented and we were reconciled.
“It seems to me that you are angry that God doesn’t have as lack a standard as you.”
No, if God wanted to save us by grace thru election, he could have done so justly. But God’s word says we are saved by grace thru faith. Jesus says repent and believe, and that it is by believing we receive God’s grace and are saved. So what angers me is the attempt to make Jesus a liar...
Calvin says you're incapable of making the right choice (even though God says you can in scripture!).
Really? Given:
Now show us where "(even though God says you can in scripture!)"
Just go screw with the head of some impressionable punk, I'll just put you where you belong if you pester me any more, pus-slinger.
Woah! Why does 1 John 3 come to mind right here/ (particularly v15). I guess this the signature of the American Religion - hate towards the people of God.
Note to Moderator: Everyone has a bad day from time to time, though this is personal and hateful, I'm not offended by it.
What a weird way to spend your time. Don’t you have ceiling fan blades to clean, or something?
“and it is up to each individual to choose whether to accept His gift by accepting Him as Savior and Lord”
Thank God I was smart enough to choose Jesus. Is that what the bible says?
Actually, yes. It does. See the parable about the banquet-thrower inviting all the poor and destitute because those invited chose not to attend. See the Prodigal Son who chose to return to his Father on his own. See the ten virgins who chose to keep an eye out for the Bridegroom. See the thief on the cross who chose Christ.
There are many others, but I'm sure you don't need me to list them all out here.
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