Posted on 10/31/2010 11:59:22 AM PDT by RnMomof7
I have never seen such a thing! Is it Catholic (as in not Orthodox)?
“Surely you’d agree that God could have created a sinless word, which is something one would expect from a God who really, really hates sin, but he didn’t. In fact he is using evil for his ends. I think SFA and getoffmylawn are right: that paints an evil God.”
Positing an all-knowing, all-loving, all-powerful, just God, which world would He create,
1. none at all,
2. non-free world of robots,
3. a free-world where we could not sin,
4. a free-world where we would sin but all would be saved,
5. a free-world where we would sin, and some would accept God’s salvation but the rest would be lost?
1) Can any man "avoid sin?"
No.
2) Can the reprobate be saved?
No.
Read up on the nature of man and the definition of "reprobate," Mark, and save yourself from such elementary errors.
Note the wording here: God is pleased to create men specifically for dishonor and wrath.
Does the papist Bible contain Romans 9? If not, borrow a Bible from one of your Protestant friends and read it.
Note the wording: suffering, wrath, crush, justice, sacrifice, more wrath...
LOL. Looks like you're having a problem with understanding "God's wrath." Read what your own church teaches, Mark...
From The Encyclical of Pope Pius XI on the Catholic Priesthood...
29. If Our Lord made such magnificent and solemn promises even to private prayers, how much more powerful must be that prayer which is said ex officio in the name of the Church, the beloved Spouse of the Savior? The Christian, though in prosperity so often forgetful of God, yet in the depth of his heart keeps his confidence in prayer, feels that prayer is all powerful, and as by a holy instinct, in every distress, in every peril whether private or public, has recourse with special trust to the prayer of the priest. To it the unfortunate of every sort look for comfort; to it they have recourse, seeking divine aid in all the vicissitudes of this exile here on earth. Truly does the "priest occupy a place midway between God and human nature: from Him bringing to us absolving beneficence, offering our prayers to Him and appeasing the wrathful Lord."
lol. Even when Rome almost gets it right, it still gets it wrong. Rome teaches that priests "appease the wrathful Lord."
lol. What a tragedy - to teach men that a priest, that "alter Christus," appeases the wrath of God when it is Christ alone who has appeased the wrath of God by His one-time, perfect sacrifice on the cross for all the sins of His flock.
Do you accept the Catholic doctrine of "free will".
CATECHISM OF THE CATHOLIC CHURCH
1730 God created man a rational being, conferring on him the dignity of a person who can initiate and control his own actions. "God willed that man should be 'left in the hand of his own counsel,' so that he might of his own accord seek his Creator and freely attain his full and blessed perfection by cleaving to him."
Man is rational and therefore like God; he is created with free will and is master over his acts.
Actually, Bing Crosby was a very nasty person off screen-much like Andy Griffin is said to be.
But, that aside, it's only a matter of time a musical is written about John Paul II:
Two priests have written a musical about the late pontiff that they hope would burnish his image. It covers the highs and lows of his life, with a little dancing along the way. ...
BTW-This seems like one of those things Alex probably has brought up before. He has that knack. :O)
Interesting spelling of “Ancient of Days” in the upper picture.
15. Every man is free to embrace and profess that religion which, guided by the light of reason, he shall consider true.
(so long as “that religion” is Catholic, otherwise, on the old bar-b-que or a really short hair cut!)
24. The Church has not the power of using force, nor has she any temporal power, direct or indirect.
(except when it does then #15 goes into effect)
77. In the present day it is no longer expedient that the Catholic religion should be held as the only religion of the State, to the exclusion of all other forms of worship.
(#15 and #24 ARE EXPEDIENT today, just not possible)
Good catch, Dr. E. I always suspected that you folks came to your theology by inheritance from your Holy Mother.... :)
Somehow I figured popes were partial to show tunes and high kicks.
Yep. We’ve learned right here on this forum that Roman Catholics long for a return to the Inquisition.
Nope. We “folks came to our theology by inheritance” by, for and through Jesus Christ alone, according to the indwelling Holy Spirit, as taught in the Scriptures and preached among the congregations of the church.
That is correct; you have. I must keep better track of who believes what (!!!!). You must understand, though, that we believe that God offers salvation to all, that He is the God of Love and Hope; any hint of alteration of the identification of Him into a latter day Dagon is very repugnant to us.
If you think about it, we accept that God is not bound by time - it is an island in the sea of his eternity - and by that knowledge we accept that he foreknew who would believe and who would reject him before they even existed. Therefore, we must also accept that knowing this God STILL allowed those people to exist. Now I do not claim to understand this at all, but I do know that God is all good and that everything he does is good. Scripture says, "That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus." (Eph. 2:7)
That and much more. I object to the depiction of God as infinite love and infinite hate (my words). Still, we have the words of Paul telling us that God wills all men to be saved. Does that not hold out hope for every man? Is God capable of finally getting the attention of every man before he is Judged to eternal hellfire? I pray that He not only is, but does.
I cannot understand the aversion some people have to the character of God that they presume to be negative. It's like they want to ignore the Scriptures that clearly state it or allegorize it or rationalize it. Instead, I believe we should accept by faith what God has revealed about his nature and trust that he is good and righteous and holy in all that he does.
Remember that we believe that much of the OT God is simply misunderstood by the people who received His message - look at the tremendous difference in message between the OT and the New. Look at the OT Jehovah who sent bears to eat the children who called Elisha a crazy bald old coot and compare that to the Incarnation of Jesus.
Since God is unchangeable and immuteable, then it is we humans that simply got it wrong.
Forgive me if I can't help believing you have let your imagination run amuck.
Using the same logic please critique the following article:
How do YOU know the character or attributes of God before creation?
How do you know HIS thoughts before the foundation of the world was laid?
Who did God love before he created anything?
Why did God create man?
We don't change God,it is man who hates God(love) when they sin in the scripture you listed
So the scripture is wrong when it says GOD HATES anything? It means we hate God? That is NOT what those scriptures say(I agree the natural man does hate God BTW, that is why men build a god to their liking and do not love the God of the Bible)
1) Can any man "avoid sin?"
No.
No man can by himself, no.
2) Can the reprobate be saved?
No.
Your definitions are wrong. God wills all men to be saved. Consult Paul, if you will not consult Christ.
Read up on the nature of man and the definition of "reprobate," Mark, and save yourself from such elementary errors.
I thought that you guys believed that one cannot save one's self.
Note the wording here: God is pleased to create men specifically for dishonor and wrath.
Does the papist Bible contain Romans 9? If not, borrow a Bible from one of your Protestant friends and read it.
I have no idea what a papist Bible is, but the one I use (NAB) does.
Romans 9: 25 As indeed he says in Hosea: "Those who were not my people I will call 'my people,' and her who was not beloved 9 I will call 'beloved.' 26 And in the very place where it was said to them, 'You are not my people,' there they shall be called children of the living God." 27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel, "Though the number of the Israelites were like the sand of the sea, only a remnant will be saved; 28 for decisively and quickly will the Lord execute sentence upon the earth." 29 And as Isaiah predicted: "Unless the Lord of hosts had left us descendants, we would have become like Sodom and have been made like Gomorrah." 30 10 What then shall we say? That Gentiles, who did not pursue righteousness, have achieved it, that is, righteousness that comes from faith; 31 but that Israel, who pursued the law of righteousness, did not attain to that law? 32 Why not? Because they did it not by faith, but as if it could be done by works. They stumbled over the stone that causes stumbling, 11 33 as it is written: "Behold, I am laying a stone in Zion that will make people stumble and a rock that will make them fall, and whoever believes in him shall not be put to shame."
Belief is the key here, not some mythical reprobate from before the universe was created.
29. If Our Lord made such magnificent and solemn promises even to private prayers, how much more powerful must be that prayer which is said ex officio in the name of the Church, the beloved Spouse of the Savior? The Christian, though in prosperity so often forgetful of God, yet in the depth of his heart keeps his confidence in prayer, feels that prayer is all powerful, and as by a holy instinct, in every distress, in every peril whether private or public, has recourse with special trust to the prayer of the priest. To it the unfortunate of every sort look for comfort; to it they have recourse, seeking divine aid in all the vicissitudes of this exile here on earth. Truly does the "priest occupy a place midway between God and human nature: from Him bringing to us absolving beneficence, offering our prayers to Him and appeasing the wrathful Lord."
Very good, Dr. E. You are discovering Christianity, however reluctantly. The wrath here is an afterthought and not the main sense that infests the WCF. If you would read further, you'd find that God's wrath is at sin. You are learning much; congratulations.
The whole WCF up until now has told us that the reprobate cannot avoid sin and cannot be saved.
And the whole of your post avoids the point that in Chapter 33, it says that the Judgement is to deter men from sin, whereas the entire rest of it says that men who are elect will go to heaven, so it doesn't matter and men who are reprobate will go to hell, so it doesn't matter. Reformed beliefs are not logical, nor do they conform to Christianity.
Certainly.
Using the same logic please critique the following article:
Okay:
The Church strives continually to impress her children with a sense of the awfulness of sin that they may fear it and avoid it. We are fallen creatures, and our spiritual life on earth is a warfare. Sin is our enemy, and while of our own strength we cannot avoid sin, with God's grace we can. If we but place no obstacle to the workings of grace we can avoid all deliberate sin. If we have the misfortune to sin, and seek God's grace and pardon with a contrite and humble heart, He will not repel us. Sin has its remedy in grace, which is given us by God, through the merits of His only-begotten Son, Who has redeemed us, restoring by His passion and death the order violated by the sin of our first parents, and making us once again children of God and heirs of heaven. Where sin is looked on as a necessary and unavoidable condition of things human, where inability to avoid sin is conceived as necessary, discouragement naturally follows. Where the Catholic doctrine of the creation of man in a superior state, his fall by a wilful transgression, the effects of which fall are by Divine decree transmitted to his posterity, destroying the balance of the human faculties and leaving man inclined to evil; where the dogmas of redemption and grace in reparation of sin are kept in mind, there is no discouragement. Left to ourselves we fall, by keeping close to God and continually seeking His help we can stand and struggle against sin, and if faithful in the battle we must wage shall be crowned in heaven.
Diametrically opposed to the Reformed beliefs, we are exhorted to keep close to God and struggle against sin. Is there something that you see that you would bring out here?
That’s the counterfeit church, a lie wrapped up in truth. The RCC’s pawns are so mislead and willingly so - it makes the demons dance.
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