Two Revolutions, Two Views of Man

Conservative Underground | July 6, 2010 | Jean F. Drew

[kosta50]

Tell the Catholics that One God in Three Persons is modalism and let me know their reply

The way it's worded, yes. God the Father revealed himself by himself in the OT. Jesus revealed himself through incarnation. And the Spirit is said to reveal himself to the faithful.

[Louis Foxwell]

Please forgive my impertenence. Salvation is a gift from God, offered through Christ, in which a person is changed into a new creature through no effort of their own. This is the ultimate gift given by virtue of the blood of Christ shed for each of us.
The recent claim by the President that he is a Christian by virtue of accepting the tenants of Jesus does not satisfy Biblical teachings about salvation. He talks about the Grace of God falling into Bonhoeffer’s trap of cheap grace, accepting salvation without repentence.
I get the same sense from reading your many posts on this thread. Please clarify for me that your words do not carry the contempt and ridicule they seem, often, to convey. I have no doubt but that sitting nez a nez we would have the added quality of personal contact as means of understanding each other so am willing to acknowledge my flawed judgement.
In short, “Been there. Done that.” is not satisfying.

[kosta50]

You write: Salvation is a gift from God, offered through Christ, in which a person is changed into a new creature through no effort of their own.

If it is "a gift from God" and is a state achieved "through no effort of their own" then what am I to make of your opening advice in #790, to wit:  "I can tell him how to achieve this state but he will not be willing to achieve it."?

You are telling me to achieve a state  I can achieve through no effort of my own!? Brilliant. 

The recent claim by the President that he is a Christian by virtue of accepting the tenants of Jesus does not satisfy Biblical teachings about salvation. He talks about the Grace of God falling into Bonhoeffer’s trap of cheap grace, accepting salvation without repentance. I get the same sense from reading your many posts on this thread

I couldn't give a rat's a$$ about his reasons. I didn't arrive at my state of not knowing (agnosis) what God is through him!  It's been a life-long journey for me, not something I conveniently borrowed for political expediency.

In short, “Been there. Done that.” is not satisfying

It is to me. After years of praying to thin air, to some imaginary God, that's where I am. I didn't come to this overnight. Thomas doubted and asked proof and no one compares him to the President. Especially when the unsolicited advice offered is a blatant self-contradiction even a 3rd grader wouldn't commit.

[Alamo-Girl]

God the Father revealed himself by himself in the OT. Jesus revealed himself through incarnation. And the Spirit is said to reveal himself to the faithful.

That sounds like modalism. LOLOL!

And the lines you draw do not comport with Scripture, e.g. all things were created by Christ.

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. The same was in the beginning with God. All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. – John 1:1-4

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

I chose each word carefully when I wrote "God the Father revealed Himself in the Person of Jesus Christ and in the Person of the Holy Spirit"

God is One God in Three Persons: Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit are sent.

This is clearly revealed in the Gospel of John which so strongly reveals the deity of Christ. And it is illustrated by words in Revelation 4 and 5 and in Hebrews 1:3 where Jesus Christ is called the brightness of the Father's glory.

In Revelation 4, the Father sits on the throne. In Revelation 5, the Son emerges from the bosom of the Father with the Holy Spirit as His eyes going forth into all the earth.

And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. – Revelation 5:6

There are way too many references in the Gospel of John to list here, e.g.

For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me. And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day. And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. - John 6:38-40

But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me: - John 15:26

That the Spirit indwells each and every Christian does not mean that He breaks into as many autonomous pieces as there are Christians. He is still One Person of the Triune God Who is One. And God is fully entailed in His indwelling us.

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God. - I Corinthians 2:11-12

Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me. I am the vine, ye [are] the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing. - John 15:4-5

For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. - Colossians 3:3

Likewise, when the Scriptures speak of the Seven Spirits of God it does not mean that the Spirit is broken into seven separate identities.

Likewise, when Scriptures speak of the Father and Son, it does not mean that God is broken into two autonomous identities.

No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared [him]. - John 1:18

I and [my] Father are one. - John 10:30

If ye had known me, ye should have known my Father also: and from henceforth ye know him, and have seen him.

Philip saith unto him, Lord, shew us the Father, and it sufficeth us.

Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou [then], Shew us the Father?

Believest thou not that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? the words that I speak unto you I speak not of myself: but the Father that dwelleth in me, he doeth the works.

Believe me that I [am] in the Father, and the Father in me: or else believe me for the very works' sake. - John 14:7-11

The Law of Identity (A=A and not B) and the Law of the Excluded Middle (either/or) do not apply to the Creator of them. Indeed, autonomy is part of the creation and a late comer at that.

God is one God in three Persons!

Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost: - Matthew 28:19

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace. – Isaiah 9:6

And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one. – Zech 14:9 (KJV)

And Jehovah hath become king over all the land, In that day there is one Jehovah, and His name one. – Zech 14:9 (YLT)

The LORD will be king over the whole earth. On that day there will be one LORD, and his name the only name. – Zech 14:9 (NIV)

And the Lord shall be king over all the earth: in that day there shall be one Lord, and his name shall be one. – Zech 14:9 (RHE)

Man is not the measure of God.

[Quix]

THanks for another excellent ping.

[kosta50]

That sounds like modalism. LOLOL!

Modalism means that God is one, but appears in three different "modes" (or masks) instead of being three "Persons" in one Godhead.

When you and the Catholic Catechism say that the Father revealed himself through the Son (or the Spirit) that is Modalism!

If you had said that Jesus revealed the Father to us, that would not be Modalism, since anyone can reveal something about another person. But it means something completely different when you say that one person reveals himself though another person, i.e. by taking on the appearance of that person.

[Alamo-Girl]

I think you are stumbling over the Law of Identity (A=A and not B) or autonomy.

When you and the Catholic Catechism say that the Father revealed himself through the Son (or the Spirit) that is Modalism!

If so, then I am in good company.

If you had said that Jesus revealed the Father to us, that would not be Modalism, since anyone can reveal something about another person.

The words of God are very clear. The Father sent the Son. The Son sends us.

Then said Jesus to them again, Peace [be] unto you: as [my] Father hath sent me, even so send I you. - John 20:21

But you veer off in a different direction here by using the id est:

But it means something completely different when you say that one person reveals himself though another person, i.e. by taking on the appearance of that person.

If Jesus were merely a mask of the Father, then it would be the Father who was crucified.

The Monarchians properly so-called (Modalists) exaggerated the oneness of the Father and the Son so as to make them but one Person; thus the distinctions in the Holy Trinity are energies or modes, not Persons: God the Father appears on earth as Son; hence it seemed to their opponents that Monarchians made the Father suffer and die. In the West they were called Patripassians, whereas in the East they are usually called Sabellians. The first to visit Rome was probably Praxeas, who went on to Carthage some time before 206-208; but he was apparently not in reality a heresiarch, and the arguments refuted by Tertullian somewhat later in his book "Adversus Praxean" are doubtless those of the Roman Monarchians (see PRAXEAS).

Catholic Encyclopedia

But here's what actually happened.

He went away again the second time, and prayed, saying, O my Father, if this cup may not pass away from me, except I drink it, thy will be done. - Matt 26:42

Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots. - Luke 23:34

Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and [to] my God, and your God. - John 20:21

God's Name is I AM.

[Louis Foxwell]

Ha.
Admitting you are incapable of saving yourself is not a work.
Praying to thin air is not the same as communing with the living God.
As I said. You are not willing to surrender totally to allow God to take over your worthless life.
Suffer, sinnner.

[kosta50]

You are not willing to surrender totally to allow God to take over your worthless life

Surrender to whom or to what? Your imaginary friend in the sky? I am under no obligation to believe such nonsense coming from another human being.

Suffer, sinnner [sic].

The sinner is someone wishing someone else to suffer.

[kosta50]

I think you are stumbling over the Law of Identity (A=A and not B) or autonomy

I don't think so, AG. Triniarian Christianity teaches that God (divinity) reveals himself in the economy of human salvation as three divine hypostatic realities, separately and without confusion; not as "modalities" of each other.

Thus, the Father does not reveal himself through Jesus—the Word reveals himself through Jesus! However, the Father and the Spirit are revealed by Jesus.

[Alamo-Girl]

Again, as in post 804, I aver that the Father was not sent, Jesus was sent, the Holy Spirit was sent.

That is the difference and why I testify the way I do: God the Father revealed Himself in four ways: 1) in the Person of Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, 2) in the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit, 3) in Scripture and 4) in Creation both physical and spiritual.

[kosta50]

I aver that the Father was not sent, Jesus was sent, the Holy Spirit was sent.

Correct. But that is hardly Trinitarian. Christian dogma of the Trinity posits that the Father, Son and the Holy Spirit are co-equal and co-eternal. The Bible speaks of the Son and the Spirit as errand boys of the Father; that's hardly co-equality. It's called suboridnaitonalist theology that is incompatible with the Trinitarian theology. It was actually taught by practically all early Christian apologists—until the first Nicene Council (325 AD).

[kosta50]

That is the difference and why I testify the way I do: God the Father revealed Himself in four ways: 1) in the Person of Jesus Christ His only begotten Son, 2) in the Person of the indwelling Holy Spirit, 3) in Scripture and 4) in Creation both physical and spiritual.

The Father reveals himself in the Old Testament in his own person. He does not reveal himself in the person of Jesus Christ—the Word (Logos) does! And the Spirit does not reveal himself at all. He is an errand boy who does things for the Father and the Son in the Bible; pretty much a third fiddle.

[Alamo-Girl]

The terms co-equal and co-eternal are irrelevant to me.

Indeed the term "eternal" is something I do not use in reference to God because the term basically means time without end. Instead I use the term "timeless" because time is part of the Creation and not a property of or restriction on the Creator of it.

[Alamo-Girl]

The Father reveals himself in the Old Testament in his own person.

We are too far apart to even pursue that subject, but for the lurkers:

Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature: For by him were all things created, that are in heaven, and that are in earth, visible and invisible, whether [they be] thrones, or dominions, or principalities, or powers: all things were created by him, and for him: And he is before all things, and by him all things consist. And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all [things] he might have the preeminence. For it pleased [the Father] that in him should all fulness dwell; And, having made peace through the blood of his cross, by him to reconcile all things unto himself; by him, [I say], whether [they be] things in earth, or things in heaven.– Colossians 1:15-20

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Cor 10:1-4

God's Name is I AM.

[Quix]

AMEN! AMEN!

THANKS FOR THE PINGS.

[kosta50]

Indeed the term "eternal" is something I do not use in reference to God because the term basically means time without end. Instead I use the term "timeless"

I am simply using established theological trinitarian terminology, in other words what some other self-professed genius established as norm.

The word eternal is derived from Latin æternum, which is derived from Greek aiones (ages, æons). There is no element of time in any of them. It hepls to know the meaning of the words before micharacterizing and discarding them.

Let me know when the theological world accepts your "timelessness" as norm. Maybe then it will be relevant.

[Alamo-Girl]

Let me know when the theological world accepts your "timelessness" as norm. Maybe then it will be relevant.

God's opinion is the only one that counts.

[Quix]

THANKS for the pings.

[kosta50]

God's opinion is the only one that counts

And what is his opinion?