Ex-Evangelical Protestant dissects conflict with Catholics

The Record ^ | Wednesday, 21 July 2010 | Anthony Barich

[AnAmericanMother]

By the words of Consecration, when pronounced by a priest in the Apostolic Succession, performing the Sacrament that Jesus bequeathed to His Apostles.

If you take Jesus at His word in John 6:52-58, there you are. Many walked no more with Him on account of those words. "This is an hard saying - who can hear it?"

[AnAmericanMother]

I'll see you a Marian litany and raise you another:

Litany of the Holy Name of Jesus

V. Lord, have mercy on us.
R. Christ, have mercy on us.
V. Lord, have mercy on us. Jesus, hear us.
R. Jesus, graciously hear us.
V. God the Father of Heaven
R. Have mercy on us.
V. God the Son, Redeemer of the world,
R. Have mercy on us.
V. God the Holy Spirit,
R. Have mercy on us.
V. Holy Trinity, one God,
R. Have mercy on us.
V. Jesus, Son of the living God,
R. Have mercy on us.
Jesus, splendor of the Father, [etc.]
Jesus, brightness of eternal light.
Jesus, King of glory.
Jesus, sun of justice.
Jesus, Son of the Virgin Mary.
Jesus, most amiable.
Jesus, most admirable.
Jesus, the mighty God.
Jesus, Father of the world to come.
Jesus, angel of great counsel.
Jesus, most powerful.
Jesus, most patient.
Jesus, most obedient.
Jesus, meek and humble of heart.
Jesus, lover of chastity.
Jesus, lover of us.
Jesus, God of peace.
Jesus, author of life.
Jesus, example of virtues.
Jesus, zealous lover of souls.
Jesus, our God.
Jesus, our refuge.
Jesus, father of the poor.
Jesus, treasure of the faithful.
Jesus, good Shepherd.
Jesus, true light.
Jesus, eternal wisdom.
Jesus, infinite goodness.
Jesus, our way and our life.
Jesus, joy of Angels.
Jesus, King of the Patriarchs.
Jesus, Master of the Apostles.
Jesus, teacher of the Evangelists.
Jesus, strength of Martyrs.
Jesus, light of Confessors.
Jesus, purity of Virgins.
Jesus, crown of Saints.

V. Be merciful, R. spare us, O Jesus.
V. Be merciful, R. graciously hear us, O Jesus.

V. From all evil, R. deliver us, O Jesus.
From all sin, deliver us, O Jesus.
From Your wrath, [etc.]
From the snares of the devil.
From the spirit of fornication.
From everlasting death.
From the neglect of Your inspirations.
By the mystery of Your holy Incarnation.
By Your Nativity.
By Your Infancy.
By Your most divine Life.
By Your labors.
By Your agony and passion.
By Your cross and dereliction.
By Your sufferings.
By Your death and burial.
By Your Resurrection.
By Your Ascension.
By Your institution of the most Holy Eucharist.
By Your joys.
By Your glory.

V. Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
R. spare us, O Jesus.
V. Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
R. graciously hear us, O Jesus.
V. Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world,
R. have mercy on us, O Jesus.

V. Jesus, hear us.
R. Jesus, graciously hear us.

Let us pray.

O Lord Jesus Christ, You have said, "Ask and you shall receive, seek, and you shall find, knock, and it shall be opened to you." Grant, we beg of You, to us who ask it, the gift of Your most divine love, that we may ever love You with our whole heart, in word and deed, and never cease praising You.

Give us, O Lord, as much a lasting fear as a lasting love of Your Holy Name, for You, who live and are King for ever and ever, never fail to govern those whom You have solidly established in Your love. R. Amen.

There are many, many more elaborating on every aspect of Christ and His ministry.

Let's face it -- Catholics just love long responsorial prayers. That's because we do things like Eucharistic Adoration and the Forty Hours Devotion.

[OpusatFR]

Litany to the Sacred Heart, my favorite devotion and meditation.

---

The Litany of the Sacred Heart of Jesus

Lord, have mercy.
Christ, have mercy.
Lord, have mercy.
Christ, graciously hear us.
God, the Father of Heaven, have mercy on us.
God, the Son, Redeemer of the World, have mercy on us.
God, the Holy Ghost, have mercy on us.
Holy Trinity, one God, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, Son of the Eternal Father, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, formed in the womb of the Virgin Mother by the Holy Ghost, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, united substantially with the word of God, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, of infinite majesty, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, holy temple of God, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, tabernacle of the Most High, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, house of God and gate of heaven, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, glowing furnace of charity, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, vessel of justice and love, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, full of goodness and love, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, abyss of all virtues, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, most worthy of all praise, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, king and center of all hearts, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, in whom are all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, in whom dwelleth all the fullness of the Divinity, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, in whom the Father is well pleased, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, of whose fullness we have all received, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, desire of the everlasting hills, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, patient and rich in mercy, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, rich to all who invoke Thee, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, fount of life and holiness, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, propitiation for our sins, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, saturated with revilings, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, crushed for our iniquities, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, made obedient unto death, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, pierced with a lance, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, source of all consolation, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, our life and resurrection, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, our peace and reconciliation, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, victim for our sins, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, salvation of those who hope in Thee, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, hope of those who die in Thee, have mercy on us.
Heart of Jesus, delight of all saints, have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, spare us, O Lord.
Lamb of God, who takest away the sins of the world, graciously hear us, O Lord,
Lamb of God who takest away the sins of the world, have mercy on us.
V. Jesus, meek and humble of Heart.
R. Make our hearts like unto Thine.

Let us pray

Almighty and everlasting God, look upon the Heart of Thy well-beloved Son and upon the acts of praise and satisfaction which He renders unto Thee in the name of sinners; and do Thou, in Thy great goodness, grant pardon to them who seek Thy mercy, in the name of the same Thy Son, Jesus Christ, who liveth and reigneth with Thee, world without end

[daniel1212]

The only hard saying is one which Catholics respond, when shown that they also are in error when shown by the Scriptures, in context, that Jesus was not offering His literal body to be literally consumed.

John. 6:25-69: As in all of John, “believe” is the key word as regards salvation, and it refers to faith in Jesus Christ, and not physically consuming His literal flesh and blood, but earnestly believing His words. Jn. 6:53, if referring to former, would require their LORD’s supper to be preached as necessary to regeneration, which it manifestly is not, as believing the gospel is. (Acts. 10:34-47)

In Jn. 6:57, Jesus makes the way He lives by the father analogous to the way believers are to live, and Jesus did not “live” by consuming the Father’s literal flesh and blood, but by “every word which proceedeth out of the mouth of God,” (Mt. 4:4) and to do the Father’s will was His “meat.” (Jn. 6:34).

This is consistent with the often allegorical use of eating as referring to spiritually consuming. Jeremiah declared, “Thy words were found, and I did eat them,” (Jer. 15:16) and in Ezek 3:1-3 and Rev. 10:9 men are told to spiritually eat, and in Ps. 19:10 and 119:13 God’s law are declared to be sweeter than honey.

In addition, in Num. 14:9 the Canaanites are said to be “bread” for Israel, and in Num. 24:8 it is foretold that Israel will eat up his enemies, while in Ps. 27:2 David speaks of his enemies coming to “eat up his flesh,” and in 2Sam. 23:17 he refers to the water acquired by his men at the risk of their lives as their blood.

Moreover, the disciples, especially Peter, were not the type to passively acquiesce to radical new things, and the idea of physically consuming the literal flesh and blood of Jesus certainly would be, as they were forbidden to do so, thus Peter’s protest in Acts 10:14, and according to Rome, a believer must understand the nature of the bread and wine for it to be efficacious.

Finally, John is constantly contrasting that which is physical and earthly with that which is spiritual and heavenly, and after the carnally minded minded Jews, who wanted the physical, depart, in Jn. 6:63 Jesus confirms that the eating and drinking of Himself refers to believing in Him, which Peter recognizes, (Jn. 6:68) and in John this is always believing on Christ.

For fuller treatment of this issue (and more) see here. http://peacebyjesus.witnesstoday.org/The_Lord’s_Supper.html

[bronx2]

The part I do not understand is your stiff neck response to the word of God. Two thousand years ago Christ established the Church as his bride and as such rejection of it is rejection of Christ. What you perceive as falsehoods of the faith predicates itself on your flawed understanding of the word of the Holy Spirit which renders your soul liable to the judgment. It is your PRIDEFUL Sinful need to make a flawed interpretation of scripture that has caused protestants to split into over 30,000 separate beliefs. Is the Holy Spirit divided into 30000 parts? This salient fact is the curse of protestantism.
Only when you look introspectively, see your sin of PRIDE and ask forgiveness will Jesus remit your obvious transgressions and lead you to eternal life.

[stfassisi]

These kinds of statements don’t really make any points other then to show that there is a lack of proper education in the scriptures.

The point is that without dogmatic teaching on such things as the Trinity,Baptism etc... Protestantism makes up it's own beliefs or follows old heresies that have already been condemned.When protestants get something right ,it was already taught by the Catholic church at some point in Christian history.Thus, there is never anything new other than new age movement and old heresies

Also, if some one is reading from flawed Bibles such as the KJV with its many translation errors it's likely there will be mistakes in interpretations regardless of education of scripture

When someone says solo Scripture you need to ask what version. The NIV's are even worse than the KJV's!

This isn’t about an offense but about giving Mary the elevated status and placing her along side Jesus and in some cases even higher then Him.

[stfassisi]

Response that got cut off..

Catholicism does not elevate Mary above Christ ,we understand that Mary’s life is all about Christ,thus Mary leads us to Christ and every refection on Mary glorifies Christ who created Mary -His humble mother

[arthurus]

And your church is communist and an agent of international Masonry and whatever other unsupported and uneducated assertions I can think of. One should not throw epithets and accusations without learning a bit about one’s subject.

[OpusatFR]

Christ is really present in the Holy Eucharist, just as He said in John 6:53-58
53 So Jesus said to them, “Very truly, I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

54 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood have eternal life, and I will raise them up on the last day;

55 for my flesh is true food and my blood is true drink.

56 Those who eat my flesh and drink my blood abide in me, and I in them.

57 Just as the living Father sent me, and I live because of the Father, so whoever eats me will live because of me.

58 This is the bread that came down from heaven, not like that which your ancestors ate, and they died. But the one who eats this bread will live forever.

Our Lord knew the depth of faith which would be required for acceptance of this doctrine, so He first prepared His followers by the miraculous multiplication of loaves and fishes. (Matt. 14:15-21). Then He foretold that He would give His very flesh and blood “as food and drink.” This was the turning point for many of His followers: “Many of his disciples, hearing it, said: This saying is hard, and who can hear it? ... After this many of his disciples went back, and walked no more with Him.” (John 6:61,67). These had not misunderstood Him; they simply would not accept what He was saying. But Our Lord did not offer an explanation to soften His words or to give them a symbolic meaning. Rather, “Then Jesus said to the twelve: “Will you also go away?” (John 6:68).

Notice that Jesus made no attempt to soften what he said, no attempt to correct “misunderstandings,” for there were none. Our Lord’s listeners understood him perfectly well. They no longer thought he was speaking metaphorically. If they had, if they mistook what he said, why no correction?

On other occasions when there was confusion, Christ explained just what he meant (cf. Matt. 16:5–12). Here, where any misunderstanding would be fatal, there was no effort by Jesus to correct. Instead, he repeated himself for greater emphasis.

In John 6:60 we read: “Many of his disciples, when they heard it, said, ‘This is a hard saying; who can listen to it?’” These were his disciples, people used to his remarkable ways. He warned them not to think carnally, but spiritually: “It is the Spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life” (John 6:63; cf. 1 Cor. 2:12–14).

But he knew some did not believe. (It is here, in the rejection of the Eucharist, that Judas fell away; look at John 6:64.) “After this, many of his disciples drew back and no longer went about with him” (John 6:66).

Paul wrote to the Corinthians: “The cup of blessing which we bless, is it not a participation in the blood of Christ? The bread which we break, is it not a participation in the body of Christ?” (1 Cor. 10:16). So when we receive Communion, we actually participate in the body and blood of Christ, not just eat symbols of them.

Paul also said, “Therefore whoever eats the bread and drinks the cup of the Lord unworthily will have to answer for the body and blood of the Lord. . . . For any one who eats and drinks without discerning the body, eats and drinks judgment on himself” (1 Cor. 11:27, 29). “To answer for the body and blood” of someone meant to be guilty of a crime as serious as homicide. How could eating mere bread and wine “unworthily” be so serious? Paul’s comment makes sense only if the bread and wine became the real body and blood of Christ.

Matthew 26

26
14 15 While they were eating, Jesus took bread, said the blessing, broke it, and giving it to his disciples said, “Take and eat; this is my body.”
27
Then he took a cup, gave thanks, 16 and gave it to them, saying, “Drink from it, all of you,
28
for this is my blood of the covenant, which will be shed on behalf of many for the forgiveness of sins.

The Eucharist is Christ’s Presence under the veil of the species, the bread and wine.

The Lord of all Creation can make a universe out of his thought. He meant what He said. To think otherwise is to continue in obstinancy.

[bronx2]

Show me where the bible says that it alone is solely sufficient for eternal salvation. This is the crux of your problem accompanied by the sin of Pride.. You limit your adherence to the word of God based on the composition of the Bible which by the way was provided by the Catholics and Orthodox. The true believers have tradition and constant infusion of the Holy Spirit into the Bride of Christ to guide them to eternal salvation.

Thus you have limited your quest for God and pridefully refused to use all resources to seek the kingdom of God. You situation can be likened to the man who buried his treasure and did not seek interest only to lose his gift upon the return of the master. You have buried your small gift of faith by erroneously limiting it to the Bible and not allowing the Spirit filled Church to guide your eternal salvation. What a pity.

[OpusatFR]

~Giving Mary the elevated status and putting her above Christ?

Just when you think it can’t get any dumber, it does.

[AnAmericanMother]

The only problem with that is the reaction of the crowd, and Jesus's reaction to that.

In other cases, when Jesus told a parable, and the crowd didn't understand, He explained, rephrased, told it another way. In John 6, the crowd murmured and didn't understand, and He said it again -- the same way. And a third time. And then many of them left.

You have to see what's actually before you. You know the maxim: you only resort to interpretation and construction when the language is not plain. And Jesus's words are just about as plain as it gets.

[caww]

Rejection of the catholic church and it's traditions taught by mere men is not at all a rejection of Christ. Your statement is false because Christ did not say anything about belonging to the catholic church.

I believe in His church..the body of believers who have accepted His finished work for them and follow Him...this is The Bride of Christ..this is His Church...and His church is made up of the body of believers...who are united by His Holy Spirit throughout the Christian community... not a denomination nor church. Now if you see this as rejecting Christ then that is your issue not mine. I know where I stand and who I have believed in...and it is not the catholic church...nor will it ever be. It is on the Rock Jesus Christ..and frankly that is where every catholic should be standing...every thing else is sinking sand.

[verga]

What difference does it matter if Mary was the “Mother of God”? Does she have more influence over Christ than other Christ-followers?

WOW, did you think about this before you wrote it? Does your mother have more influence with you than others do, Do you honor your mother above other women?

You also realize that it is the Queen Mother that is the queen, not the wives of the king.

[SonOfDarkSkies]

When someone says solo Scripture you need to ask what version. The NIV's are even worse than the KJV's!

This whole thread is rather silly, pedestrian, and almost heretical to those who are "Amazing Grace Christians"!

I know many people who have a very close relationship with Yeshuah (yes, the Creator) not because they found him in Scripture or in the Catholic Church. He personally intervened to pull their butts out of the fires of personal destruction (substance abuse, mental illness/madness, sexual addiction, prostitution, etc).

It is easy (however contentious) for theologically-oriented folks of many denominations to argue The Truth among themselves.

But for people who hit the bottom so hopelessly hard all they could see was up...and sitting "up there was our Lord...with His Hand extended"...many of you people sound completely inane.

The Amazing Grace people (not a defined term) know the Lord because He personally came into their lives and pulled their fat out of the fire (with their decision to put their faith in Him).

As Jesus said, "Blessed [are] the poor in spirit: for theirs is the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:3). BTW, if you ever wonder who the poor in spirit are (the most depressed)...speak to an addict or a manic depressive or someone struggling with illness.

Those saved from that crowd can tell you what Jesus/Yeshuah is like because He has personally come into their lives. Without Him, they would not be alive.

If you think you know Jesus because you pray a lot or go to Mass or Church...you haven't even begun to know Him the way the "Amazing Grace" believers know Him.

And yes...I am one of those who He saved from such a life.

If you haven't been saved from such an absolutely desperate and desolate place...your arguments have a ridicuous and purely academic ring.

[verga]

Extra ecclessium Nola Salus. Outside the Church there is no Salvation

[Campion]

Jesus was not offering His literal body to be literally consumed

You mean he came to earth to replace one set of symbols (the Old Covenant; see Hebrews 9:23-24) by another set?

What a lot of to-do about nothing, then! Why bother?

No, he offers his literal body on the Cross and in the Supper. That is why John the Baptist can say, "Behold, the Lamb of God, who takes away the sin of the world!". (You had to eat the lamb to celebrate the Passover, remember. "Lamb cookies" don't get the job done.)

And it's why Paul writes that "we, though many, all partake of that one bread" (1 Cor 10:17). The "one bread" is Christ himself.

[verga]

Was Peter not granted the keys to the gates of heaven? NO, he was not...Read the scripture...What are you going to say the next time, 'was not Peter given the throne of heaven'???

How can you quote the scriptures wrong and then expect for anyone to think you have a clue what you are talking about???

Really becasue in my bible it states taht Peter was given the Keys to the kingdom, or did you clowns tear that book out of the Bible too?

Mat 16:18 "And I also say to you that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build My church; and the gates of Hades shall not overpower it.

Mat 16:19 "I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; and whatever you shall bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you shall loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

You might want to actually read the Bible once in a while.

[verga]

If I’m wrong I’m sure that some well informed Catholic will correct me. On the other hand I believe that your church acknowledges that those who are “separated brethren” have “some” of the truth. As a sinner saved by Grace I have a personal relationship with God through Christ. I am suggesting to you that your statement seems to be out of step with the position of your church.

You are indeed correct in my haste I should have said that we have the "most" personal relationship with Jesus. I was a bit irked by some of the other comments that had been floating around. My apologies for any confustion that I may have generated

[caww]

a priest in the Apostolic Succession

But you see I do not believe in the Apostolic Succession, and no one has proven this is so. In fact if we were to believe this why didn't Christ tell us He was going to do that... He didn't. It is Rome that believes in their Priests...I do not. Christ said that He was the Great High Priest and the only mediator between God and man so we no longer need a Priest to pronounce anything when we take communion. Christ is our Priest..It is enough to do what Christ said..."Do this in remembrance of Me" was said to his disciple's and that is sufficient for us all as believers in Him.