POPE: BELGIUM SEX ABUSE RAIDS DEPLORABLE

AP ^ | June 27, 2010 | Nicole Winfield

[wmfights]

It’s amazing how quickly people are deceived when they exchange God’s Word for man’s.

Yes it is.

[metmom]

Old Reggie probably read far enough into the Catechism of the Catholic Church to get to this part.

http://www.vatican.va/archive/catechism/p123a9p3.htm

“Outside the Church there is no salvation”

846 How are we to understand this affirmation, often repeated by the Church Fathers?335 Re-formulated positively, it means that all salvation comes from Christ the Head through the Church which is his Body:

Basing itself on Scripture and Tradition, the Council teaches that the Church, a pilgrim now on earth, is necessary for salvation: the one Christ is the mediator and the way of salvation; he is present to us in his body which is the Church. He himself explicitly asserted the necessity of faith and Baptism, and thereby affirmed at the same time the necessity of the Church which men enter through Baptism as through a door. Hence they could not be saved who, knowing that the Catholic Church was founded as necessary by God through Christ, would refuse either to enter it or to remain in it.336

847 This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church:

Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience - those too may achieve eternal salvation.337

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Old Reggie, I was raised Catholic in a Catholic extended family with priests and a nun in that family, had Catholic friends and co-workers and agree, the Catholic Church DOES INDEED teach that those baptized as Catholics are saved and that those outside the Roman Catholic Church are not.

The Catholic Church even teaches that infants go to Limbo if they are not baptized before they die, even those infants born to Catholic parents. I’ve known very committed Catholics who were scared to take their newborns out of the house before their baptism lest something happen to them.

You are indeed correct, Old Reggie.

[small voice in the wilderness]

Why won’t they admit it? Just stand up and say what they believe. Why is everything shrouded in mystery and secrecy? And layer upon layer of distancing themselves from their doctrine? They’re like a ten-tier wedding cake made from crepes. layer upon layer of thin.

[metmom]

Because it makes them look like the ones they condemn.

I’ve seen so many Catholics sneer at other churches for having a *We’re saved and nobody else is* mentality, and their OFFICIAL vatican.va Catechism of the Catholic Church from the vatican.va itself teaches the same thing.

[Natural Law]

"The Catholic Church even teaches that infants go to Limbo if they are not baptized before they die, even those infants born to Catholic parents. I’ve known very committed Catholics who were scared to take their newborns out of the house before their baptism lest something happen to them."

More superstitious tripe. Based upon all of the error you say you and your family believed in it is no wonder you are a failed Catholic.

Limbo has never been defined as church dogma and is not mentioned in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states simply that unbaptized infants are entrusted to God's mercy. It was at best an theoretical construct to address the issue of Original Sin......your sect still believes in Original Sin, doesn't it?

[Natural Law]

"I’ve seen so many Catholics sneer at other churches for having a *We’re saved and nobody else is* mentality, and their OFFICIAL vatican.va Catechism of the Catholic Church from the vatican.va itself teaches the same thing."

So what is your point? I have seen an opposite "All papists are condemned" line out of the anti-Catholics on these threads for years.

If Catholicism is as wrong as you say it is why do you get all in a bunch over what the Church teaches? I don't pay any mind to Mormon baptism of the dead and Calvinistic TULIP nonsense because it is simply wrong and therefore inconsequential.

[OLD REGGIE]

More superstitious tripe. Based upon all of the error you say you and your family believed in it is no wonder you are a failed Catholic.

You are unknowingly correct in that the teaching of Limbo is, and always has been, superstitious tripe. Sadly, it was taught to millions of Catholics for many hundreds of years and was not addressed until very recent history. (JP II).

Limbo has never been defined as church dogma and is not mentioned in the current Catechism of the Catholic Church, which states simply that unbaptized infants are entrusted to God's mercy. It was at best an theoretical construct to address the issue of Original Sin......your sect still believes in Original Sin, doesn't it?

To this day the official position of the Catholic Church is not certain concerning the death of unbaptized infants.

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

Not totally encouraging is it?

Further........

CCC 1250 Born with a fallen human nature and tainted by original sin, children also have need of the new birth in Baptism to be freed from the power of darkness and brought into the realm of the freedom of the children of God, to which all men are called.50 The sheer gratuitousness of the grace of salvation is particularly manifest in infant Baptism. The Church and the parents would deny a child the priceless grace of becoming a child of God were they not to confer Baptism shortly after birth.51

Call it what you will the official teaching of the RCC is designed to frighten their members concerning the death of unbaptized unborn and infants.

[Natural Law]

"Call it what you will the official teaching of the RCC is designed to frighten their members concerning the death of unbaptized unborn and infants."

Now you are mind reading. I know what the teaching of the Church is and was and why. For all of the Sola Scriptura blather Catholics are subjected to on the Religion Forum the anti-Catholics are quick to attack the Church for its handling of Original Sin even though both Calvin and Luther advocated infant baptism.

Sadly, only those who doubt or distrust the infinite mercy of God would doubt the salvation of an unbaptized child. Surely you do not believe that the sins of the parents for failing to act would be visited upon the child.

[OLD REGGIE]

Now you are mind reading. I know what the teaching of the Church is and was and why. For all of the Sola Scriptura blather Catholics are subjected to on the Religion Forum the anti-Catholics are quick to attack the Church for its handling of Original Sin even though both Calvin and Luther advocated infant baptism.

Sadly, only those who doubt or distrust the infinite mercy of God would doubt the salvation of an unbaptized child. Surely you do not believe that the sins of the parents for failing to act would be visited upon the child.

Sadly, the RCC has real doubt concerning the infinite mercy of God concerning the salvation of an unbaptized child.

CCC 1261 As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: "Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,"63 allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism.

"...allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism."

HOPE? HOPE? Doubt incorporated!

[Natural Law]

"Sadly, the RCC has real doubt concerning the infinite mercy of God concerning the salvation of an unbaptized child."

At least you have dropped the facade of being something other than an anti-Catholic.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I just now saw your maps.

First, I’ll follow RC apologists’ example and question your source. Bavaria was almost completely Roman Catholic and it was Hitler’s greatest ally as he overtook Germany and Europe. Hitler’s chalet, Eagles Nest, was in Bavaria.

Rome lies.

But as I said before, unlike RCs who defend their church, right or wrong, I do not defend those in the Protestant church in Germany in WWII who capitulated with the Nazis.

So your straw man is stuck in a field of swastikas in the middle of Bavaria — home to a certain Hitler Youth.

[OLD REGGIE]

At least you have dropped the facade of being something other than an anti-Catholic.

The "anti-Catholic" accusation against any person who dares to question you and your packaged talking points is tiring.

Truth is truth. Blather is blather. If you have no good answer to an honest point the best course is to admit it rather than resorting to dishonest blather.

You are at least consistent in refusing to carry on an honest dialog.

[Natural Law]

"Rome lies"

There is plenty of lying going on, but it isn't from Rome. This is a subject that has had ample legitimate research performed and published so no matter how loud a lie is shouted it is still a lie.

The following is from an article by Dick Geary that first appeared in History Today, October 1998. Dick Geary is Professor of Modern History at the University of Nottingham and the author of Hitler and Nazism (Routledge 1993)

"The latest research into the voting patterns of the German people in the crucial years that brought Hitler to power Between 1928 and 1932, the National Socialist German Workers Party (NSDAP) became the most popular of Germany's many political organisations. It had won no more than 2.6 per cent of votes cast in the Reichstag election of 1928 but just two years later registered massive gains, winning 18.3 per cent of the popular vote. The Reichstag election of July 1932 saw even more spectacular success: 13.7 million German electors, some 37.3 per cent of all votes cast, opted for the NSDAP, making it the largest party in the Reich."

"This story of electoral success certainly forms the background to Hitler's appointment as Chancellor in 1933. However, even at the peak of the NSDAP's popularity before this moment, almost 63 per cent of the German electorate did not vote for the Nazis. What is more, in November 1932, the Nazi Party actually lost 2 million votes. This means that Hitler was not directly voted in to power; for in the Weimar system of absolute proportional representation, 37 per cent of the vote in July 1932 gave the Nazis nothing like a majority in the Reichstag."

Although Hitler's political career began in Munich, in the elections of 1928 to November 1932 the NSDAP won a higher share of the vote in Protestant than in Catholic Germany. In the Catholic Rhineland and Bavaria (apart from Protestant Franconia) it polled disproportionately badly. In fact in July 1932 the Nazi share of the vote was almost twice as high in Protestant as in Catholic areas. The inability, of Nazis to attract the Catholic vote was demonstrated by the stable support for the Catholic Centre Party, which regularly gained between 11.8 and 12.5 per cent between 1928, and November 1932; and by that of its sister confessional party, the Bavarian People's Party (BVP), which stayed firm at around 3 per cent in those same elections."

[OLD REGGIE]

There is plenty of lying going on, but it isn't from Rome. This is a subject that has had ample legitimate research performed and published so no matter how loud a lie is shouted it is still a lie.

Let's establish one thing first. The Protestant Church is as guilty as anyone in allowing Hitler to come to power and supporting him when he did so. Individual acts of heroism notwithstanding the Protestant Church in Germany has much to be ashamed of.

You would have us believe that the Catholic Church, however, was innocent in the rise to power of Hitler and of supporting him in any way.

The signing of the Concordat with Germany by Cardinal Pacelli (future Pope Pius XII) in 1933 and the subsequent dissoloution of the politically powerful Catholic Center Party was instrumental in the rise to power of Hitler.

The quid pro quo of this Concordat was designed to gain special privileges for the Catholic Church which it did, temporarily.

Note a key provision of this Concordat:

Article 16
Before bishops take possession of their dioceses they are to take an oath of fealty either to the Reich Representative of the State concerned, or to the President of the Reich, according to the following formula: "Before God and on the Holy Gospels I swear and promise as becomes a bishop, loyalty to the German Reich and to the State of . . . I swear and promise to honor the legally constituted Government and to cause the clergy of my diocese to honor it. In the performance of my spiritual office and in my solicitude for the welfare and the interests of the German Reich, I will endeavor to avoid all detrimental acts which might endanger it."

Concordat Between the Holy See and the German Reich

No, the Catholic Church is not an innocent victim.

[Natural Law]

"The Protestant Church is as guilty as anyone in allowing Hitler to come to power and supporting him when he did so. Individual acts of heroism notwithstanding the Protestant Church in Germany has much to be ashamed of."

Thank you for agreeing with me. The original charge in this thread was that Hitler's rise to power was because of his political success in Catholic Bavaria. I simply provided proof that this was not the case.

[OLD REGGIE]

(OLD REGGIE) "The Protestant Church is as guilty as anyone in allowing Hitler to come to power and supporting him when he did so. Individual acts of heroism notwithstanding the Protestant Church in Germany has much to be ashamed of."

Thank you for agreeing with me. The original charge in this thread was that Hitler's rise to power was because of his political success in Catholic Bavaria. I simply provided proof that this was not the case.

Isn't it about time you stopped playing games and learned to deal with the truth?

I have reviewed every post on this thread and not once have I seen one of those dreaded Protestants defend the actions of the Protestant Clergy or the Protestant Churches. Rather, I have seen posts admitting the Protestant guilt.

I have, however, not seen one post from a Catholic admitting in any way that the Catholic Church shares any guilt in the rise of Nazism.

Why don't you grow up and admit the Catholic Church doesn't have clean hands as it pertains to Nazism?

BTW In my opinion the 1933 Concordat and the "serendipitous" dissolution of the powerful and influential Catholic Center Party had much to do with the rise of Nazism.

[Natural Law]

"Isn't it about time you stopped playing games and learned to deal with the truth?"

Intentional LIES about the Church it is not a game. It was posted "Bavaria was almost completely Roman Catholic and it was Hitler’s greatest ally as he overtook Germany and Europe." I simply posted factual evidence to the contrary.

The fact is that the antisemitism that swept Hitler into power and brought the world to the brink of extinction was rooted in the founders of the so-called reformation who are praised as sinless on these threads on a daily basis. When I see the Calvin hallelujah posse denounce Luther and Calvin for these sins as loudly and regularly as I see a 14 year old conscripted seminarian I might begin giving you and them the benefit of the doubt. Until then I will consider you all hypocrites.

The truth may make you as uncomfortable or angry as it does the poster of the lie, but it does not change the truth or concern me.

[OLD REGGIE]

Intentional LIES about the Church it is not a game. It was posted "Bavaria was almost completely Roman Catholic and it was Hitler’s greatest ally as he overtook Germany and Europe." I simply posted factual evidence to the contrary.

The fact is that the antisemitism that swept Hitler into power and brought the world to the brink of extinction was rooted in the founders of the so-called reformation who are praised as sinless on these threads on a daily basis. When I see the Calvin hallelujah posse denounce Luther and Calvin for these sins as loudly and regularly as I see a 14 year old conscripted seminarian I might begin giving you and them the benefit of the doubt. Until then I will consider you all hypocrites.

The truth may make you as uncomfortable or angry as it does the poster of the lie, but it does not change the truth or concern me.

You are very quick to brand others as LIARS when you find something to question in one of their posts.

I will not stoop to call you a LIAR but I believe a history lesson is in order. It may just disabuse you of the false notion tht anti-semitism was "rooted in the founders of the so-called reformation..."

It is my hope that this historical truth doesn't make you uncomfortable or angry but, rather, is a source of enlightenment.

List of Papal Bulls on Jewish Question

Anti-Semitism of the "Church Fathers"

During the Reformation, in 1555, Pope Paul IV decreed that all Jews must be segregated into their own quarters (ghettos), and they were forbidden to leave their home during the night, were banned from all but the most strenuous occupations and had to wear a distinctive badge — a yellow hat. More than 4,700 Jews lived in the seven-acre Roman Jewish ghetto that was built in the Travestere section of the city (which still remains a Jewish neighborhood to this day) If any Jews wanted to rent houses or businesses outside the ghetto boundaries, permission was needed from the Cardinal Vicar. Jews could not own any property outside the ghetto. They were not allowed to study in higher education institutions or become lawyers, pharmacists, painters, politicians, notaries or architects. Jewish doctors were only allowed to treat Jewish patients. Jews were forced to pay an annual stipend to pay the salaries of the Catholic officials who supervised the Ghetto Finance Administration and the Jewish Community Organization; a stipend to pay for Christian missionaries who proselytized to the Jews and a yearly sum to the Cloister of the Converted. In return, the state helped with welfare work, but gave no money toward education or caring for the sick. These anti-Jewish laws were similar to those imposed by Nazi Germany on the Jews during World War II.

During the Reformation, talmudic literature as a whole was banned in Rome. On Rosh Hashana 1553, the Talmud and other Hebrew books were burned. Raids of the ghetto were common, and were conducted to insure that Jews did not own any "forbidden" books (any other literature besides the Bible and liturgy). It was forbidden to sing psalms or dirges when escorting the dead to their burial place. Every Saturday, a number of Jews were forced to leave the ghetto and listen to sermons delivered in local churches. Also, whenever a new Pope was ordained, the Jews presented him with a Torah scroll. Jews continued to live in the ghetto for almost 300 years.

1555 - Pope Paul IV Establishes Jewish Ghetto

Restrictions and regulations were issued from time to time in regard to life in the ghetto, and rescinded and reimposed, as in the legislation of Pius VI. in 1775. In 1814 Pius VII permitted a few Jews to live outside the ghetto; in 1847 Pius IX decided to remove the ghetto gates and walls and to give the Jews the right of residence in any part of Rome; but the reactionary movement of 1848 reestablished the restrictions. In 1870 the Jews of Rome presented to Pope Pius IX. a petition for the abolition of the ghetto, but he did not grant it. King Victor Immanuel, who entered Rome in that year, abolished the ghetto, though remnants of its walls remained until 1885.

Ghetto remained until the Papal States were defeated in war - 1870

Sadly, history is distorted when one relies solely on Apologetics as a source.