Posted on 06/27/2010 3:10:25 AM PDT by GonzoII
John 6:29 29Jesus answered, "The work of God is this: to believe in the one he has sent."
James says that our works are necessary to salvation. James even goes so far as to call those who believe in faith alone foolish in James 2:20:
You foolish man, do you want evidence that faith without deeds is useless?
You are trying to redefine the book of James to match your doctrine rather than changing your doctrine to match James.
Romans 6:16
Don't you know that when you offer yourselves to someone to obey him as slaves, you are slaves to the one whom you obey—whether you are slaves to sin, which leads to death, or to obedience, which leads to righteousness?
Even Paul says that obedience leads to righteousness.
And you are trying to redefine the Dispensation of the Grace of God to match your doctrine rather than changing your doctrine to match this PRESENT DISPENSATION, given to Paul and found in Romans through Philemon.
What you keep clinging to in order to justify the false teaching you are holding onto can be likened to the difference between Judas and Peter. Peter repented and came back to the Lord because he was genuine. Judas stood in the presence of Christ, witnessed the Spirit’s work and tasted of the kingdom, yet he turned back because he was not a true believer. He “betrayed” Christ, because he was not genuine. Such is the case of those who profess Christ and then deny Him today. They profess, but do not possess to know Jesus Christ, who is Eternal Life. “Whosoever believes in Christ has eternal life and shall never die.”
If eternal life is not eternal, everlasting life, then God is a liar. Some folks are like Bill Clinton; he couldn’t define what is, is. It’s a shame that many Christians cannot define eternal. Eternal life defines quality and quantity. I gave up living in fear of losing God’s gift many years ago after living on the Roller Coaster of religion for ten years. Give up your religion and receive Christ - He is eternal life. Once you ask Him into your life, He will complete the work He started within. God is not a man that He should lie! God cannot fail to keep me from falling — Praise His Holy Name! Many folks believe God is not able to keep them from falling. It’s good to be free in Christ, and although I’m not without sin, my sanctification is greater on a practical basis today than it was years ago. All the glory be to God!
That’s because we were born-gain to good works. Genuine salvation, a supernatural transformation produces genuine good works. Those genuine good works are evidence of genuine salvation and justify the claim that we have been born-again. Good works cannot produce salvation, nor keep us saved. “It is a gift of God, not of works, lest anyman should boast.”
While I must believe what is best warranted, and thus have an open mind on this issue, you have no compulsion over calling a teaching false which has clear substantiation. Rather than facing the issue objectively, you keep resorting to superficial exegesis in avoidance of texts that stand in your way.
It is certain that Judas was damned, but the issue is whether he was ever saved. However, the Galatians were born again, set free, and in grace, but were warned of going into Judaism, resulting in Christ becoming of no effect, of profiting them nothing, as they fell from grace.
Likewise the subject of Hebrews 10 were Christians, but were warned of willfully forsaking the faith, of drawing back into perdition, rather than being of them “who believe to the saving of the soul.” (Heb. 10:19-39)
To relegate these to being unregenerate souls is not an honest analysis of the texts. However, the only way to believe to the saving of the soul is to believe, to rely on in Christ as one’s Lord and Savior, and thus one’s life will be characterized by obedience to Him. Our work is to abide, and He will perfect that which concerns us as we do. But this faith will be tested, and Christians are exhorted to continue and warned of the consequences of departing from the faith.
He is eternal life. Once you ask Him into your life, He will complete the work He started within. God is not a man that He should lie! God cannot fail to keep me from falling — Praise His Holy Name!
AMEN!
Jued 1:24 To him who is able to keep you from falling and to present you before his glorious presence without fault and with great joy— 25to the only God our Savior be glory, majesty, power and authority, through Jesus Christ our Lord, before all ages, now and forevermore! Amen.
Wonderful verse, and one way in which God works to keep us from falling is to warn us of the consequences of denying the faith, as well as chastening us when we stay.
10-4 Brother! Good simple way to express it.
I have not addressed these verses due to time previous time restraints - I’m a busy man. I do not question your faith or the fact that you have been born again. Most folks who are diligently searching the Scriptures are born again.
Galatians 4:9-11 Paul is addressing those who were being seduced by the Judaizers to move back in the rituals and ceremonies of the law and find themselves in bondage to that law again. To do so would not negate their salvation, but rob them of the abundant freedom they had received in Christ - freedom from the law.
Galatians 5:12 Paul again addressing the same issue, as Christians we are free from the law which brings death.
Hebrews 10:26,27 Verse 26 is defining apostasy. An apostate has seen and heard the truth, he knows the truth, but has wilfully rejected it. This does not mean he has received Christ and then rejected. He came to the knowledge and rejected the truth. The apostate is now hopeless, beyond salvation because he has rejected the only truth that can save him. The lost man who has not been presented the truth, can still be saved by accepting Christ. Apostasy is closely related to the unpardonable sin that the Pharisees were guilty of. They knew the truth, stood in His presence and wilfully rejected Him - even accused Him of being Satanic.
Romans 11:22 Same thing applies to being “cut-off” as to above Scriptures. Not everyone sitting in church is saved, even some who believe they are. People who hear the truth on a regular basis and turn from it are simply not genuine. Those who are not genuine do not persevere and are eventually cut-off from opportunity because they have rejected the kindness of God.
I apologize if I was misunderstood and came on a little strong toward you. This is an issue dear to my heart because I once sat where you do now with regard to this issue and went through real battle in pursuing the truth of this issue. It’s fearful thing to live on a daily basis wandering if I might lose my salvation. I was attending Jimmy Swaggart Bible College when he fell and went on to graduate from Southeastern Univeristy (Assmbly of God). Today I pastor a Southern Baptist Church in Tampa. I know many Pentecostals who are born-again and love God, yet they espouse this doctrine of losing one’s salvation. I understand the battle within and without on this matter. God bless you and I pray you will come to light on the subject. Pray, study the Scriptures and ask God to do whatever is necessary to help you see clear on it. He will!
James 2:20 is saying that a faith without works is a dead faith.
It isn't saying that the person is unsaved.
And Rom.6:16 isn't speaking of salvation either, it is speaking of being controlled by the Holy Spirit (Rom.6:13)
So, you think your works are good enough to get you into heaven?
If you do, you aren't going to make it, no one's works are good enough.
Rom. 6 is speaking of the Christian walk.
But now being made free from sin and become servants to God, ye have FRUIT unto holiness and the end everlasting life' (Rom.6:23)
Paul states very clearly that salvation is NOT OF WORKS (Eph.2:9)
Some people would rather go to hell misreading James than to heaven reading Paul.
This interpretation requires Christ profiting them nothing and becoming of “none effect”, having “fallen from grace,” (5:2-4) and making Paul's labor towards them to be “in vain”, (4:11) to mean simply losing abundant freedom. This is hardly the most warranted interpretation, versus meaning that by embracing Judaism they would have effectively forsaken faith in Christ and thus His salvation.
Hebrews 10:26,27 Verse 26 is defining apostasy. An apostate has seen and heard the truth, he knows the truth, but has wilfully rejected it. This does not mean he has received Christ and then rejected. He came to the knowledge and rejected the truth. The apostate is now hopeless, beyond salvation because he has rejected the only truth that can save him. The lost man who has not been presented the truth, can still be saved by accepting Christ. Apostasy is closely related to the unpardonable sin that the Pharisees were guilty of. They knew the truth, stood in His presence and wilfully rejected Him - even accused Him of being Satanic.
This is the typical OSAS interpretation, which i see as outcome-based, as to hold that the subjects at issue are not believers is untenable.
First, unbelievers are not exhorted, "Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; (for he is faithful that promised;) {24} And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works: {25} Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves together, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as ye see the day approaching." (Heb 10:23-25)
Nor would they have been souls of whom Paul said, "For ye had compassion of me in my bonds, and took joyfully the spoiling of your goods, knowing in yourselves that ye have in heaven a better and an enduring substance. {35} Cast not away therefore your confidence, which hath great recompense of reward. 36 For ye have need of patience, that, after ye have done the will of God, ye might receive the promise. "(Heb 10:34-36)
Second, these souls were those who were sanctified by the blood of Jesus, but profaned it by turning back. (v. 29)
Third, their judgment is because “the Lord shall judge His people.” (v. 30)
As the addressees here were of faith, thus the exhortation is not that of coming to faith but continuing in the faith, versus sinning will-fully after being enlightened and believing the truth. To do the latter, in willfully walking away from the faith, in a contrasting manner as to how he came to Christ, makes one a subject of wrath, as he is even more accountable than an unbeliever. This does not mean backsliders cannot repent, but when souls who have realized given much grace recant it, or impenitently given themselves over to sin, then they are more damnable than even unbelievers. They (we) are therefore reminded that real believers are not “them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.” (Heb. 10:39)
In addition, Heb 3:6 tell us that we are part of the house of Christ, “if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end," versus being like those Hebrews which were saved under Moses, but turned back in unbelief.
The Hebrews Christians were under much pressure to return to Judaism, while the Thessalonians, who had been born again, were tempted to return to paganism, and Paul's labor would had been in vain if they had yielded to this pressure.
(1 Th 1:4-6) "Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God. {5} For our gospel came not unto you in word only, but also in power, and in the Holy Ghost, and in much assurance; as ye know what manner of men we were among you for your sake. {6} And ye became followers of us, and of the Lord, having received the word in much affliction, with joy of the Holy Ghost:"
(1 Th 2:13) "For this cause also thank we God without ceasing, because, when ye received the word of God which ye heard of us, ye received it not as the word of men, but as it is in truth, the word of God, which effectually worketh also in you that believe."
(1 Th 3:4-5) "For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know. {5} For this cause, when I could no longer forbear, I sent to know your faith, lest by some means the tempter have tempted you, and our labour be in vain."
Romans 11:22 Same thing applies to being “cut-off” as to above Scriptures. Not everyone sitting in church is saved, even some who believe they are. People who hear the truth on a regular basis and turn from it are simply not genuine. Those who are not genuine do not persevere and are eventually cut-off from opportunity because they have rejected the kindness of God.
This is clearly addressing believers, and which it contrasts with unbelieving Jews, and thus if the former were not elect, then the comparison fails. But as this deals with people groups, it can be somewhat plausibly explained as warning of the Gentiles future rejecting and blindness, and thus it is not among the strongest texts militating against OSAS.
I apologize if I was misunderstood and came on a little strong toward you. This is an issue dear to my heart because I once sat where you do now with regard to this issue and went through real battle in pursuing the truth of this issue.
I do not think you sit where i sit. I was discipled in an OSAS church, and would rather believe that, but i see too many texts, in context, conveying a salvation which is conditional upon faith, and warnings that believers can choose to recant that faith, and forfeit its salvific benefits, and cannot honestly accept the OSAS arguments that i have heard which attempt to negate these. Yet i also see the weight of texts such as Eph. 1:13 in favor of eternal security, while again, 2Pet. 1:0 shows how to have eternal security, by reaching a certain level of maturity.
It’s fearful thing to live on a daily basis wandering if I might lose my salvation.
It is one thing to inculcate daily fear among penitent and overall Godly souls based upon their failings, and another to warn of impenitently willfully practicing know sin. The believer, even those who hold that salvation can be lost, must actually have confidence in God's keeping power in order to overcome sin in faith-dependance upon God and His power, and can have assurance that they are saved, based upon the “these things” of as 1Jn. 5:13, while also recognizing that to walk away form Christ means forfeiting what faith procures.
I was attending Jimmy Swaggart Bible College when he fell and went on to graduate from Southeastern Univeristy (Assmbly of God). Today I pastor a Southern Baptist Church in Tampa. I know many Pentecostals who are born-again and love God, yet they espouse this doctrine of losing one’s salvation. I understand the battle within and without on this matter. God bless you and I pray you will come to light on the subject. Pray, study the Scriptures and ask God to do whatever is necessary to help you see clear on it. He will!
Praise God brother for your overall work and labor of love.
This has been a matter of much prayer, and i am calling it as i see it, but outside of extremes, this is not a salvific issue, as long as one holds to the conservative school of OSAS, in recognition that it is only a faith which is characterized by faith-obedience, and repentance when convicted of failing that, that is salvific. And those of the probationary school must balance the fear of the Lord with the comfort of the Holy Ghost, and make souls look to Jesus, to overcome besetting sins. (Heb. 12:1,2)
That a soul is saved by faith is correct, however, your statement that Ja. 2:20 “isn’t saying that the person is unsaved”, is clearly incorrect, as that is indeed what his is saying.
However, Ja. 2 does not teach that works of faith merit eternal life, which is the error of Rome ( even if they overall manifest far less a degree of basic Biblical evidences of faith and that they evangelical counterparts), but what the Bible teaches is that the the only manner of faith which saves is one that manifests “things that accompany salvation.” (Heb. 6:9)
That one is saved by grace alone thru faith alone, but not by a faith which is alone has been the historic evangelical position. The Westminster Confession of Faith (11:2) states:
“Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.”
No, James 2 is stating that works SHOW one is saved.
That is the sense that justification is being used in the chapter.
However, Ja. 2 does not teach that works of faith merit eternal life, which is the error of Rome ( even if they overall manifest far less a degree of basic Biblical evidences of faith and that they evangelical counterparts), but what the Bible teaches is that the the only manner of faith which saves is one that manifests “things that accompany salvation.” (Heb. 6:9) That one is saved by grace alone thru faith alone, but not by a faith which is alone has been the historic evangelical position. The Westminster Confession of Faith (11:2) states: “Faith, thus receiving and resting on Christ and His righteousness, is the alone instrument of justification; yet it is not alone in the person justified, but is ever accompanied with all other saving graces, and is no dead faith, but works by love.”
Faith works but the works are the fruit, the faith is the root.
The fruit only SHOWS what kind of tree it is, it doesn't give the tree life, the root does that.
“Faith works but the works are the fruit, the faith is the root.
The fruit only SHOWS what kind of tree it is, it doesn’t give the tree life, the root does that.”
I agree, but by declaring that “faith without works is dead,” James is teaching that such a soul that has faith without fruit is unsaved, and thus my correction.
I agree, but by declaring that “faith without works is dead,” James is teaching that such a soul that has faith without fruit is unsaved, and thus my correction.
No, James is only saying that the person may be unsaved or simply saved individual whose faith is not producing any fruit.
His words don't match his actions (1Jn.3:17-19)
In such a case, the individual may suffer the sin unto death,(1Jn.5:16) but he is still saved.
“James is only saying that the person may be unsaved or simply [a] saved individual whose faith is not producing any fruit.”
No again, but his argument is not that a fruitless person may be saved, but that a faith that has no works is not saving.
“What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” (James 2:14)
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20)
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:26)
Nowhere does the Bible teach that a faith that is not of the type that will confess Christ is salvific.
(John 10:27-28) “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.”
(Heb 6:9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.”
And it is because of such that Paul knew that souls such as the Thessalonians were saved:
(1 Th 1:4,8-9) “Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.” “For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. {9} For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;”
(1 John 5:13) “These things [1:1-5:12] have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
No again, but his argument is not that a fruitless person may be saved, but that a faith that has no works is not saving. “What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?” (James 2:14)
The key word is say hath faith.
He will show if he truely has faith by the fruit he bears.
Note, the verse 'and one of you say unto them, depart ye in peace be ye filled;
“But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?” (James 2:20)
Yes, it is a 'dead' faith, not producing fruit.
It doesn't mean the person is unsaved.
“For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.” (James 2:26)
Again a dead faith.
Nowhere does the Bible teach that a faith that is not of the type that will confess Christ is salvific.
Yes for one to be saved, he must believe on Him, who is stating otherwise?
That doesn't mean that individual will produce fruit that will show he is saved.
(John 10:27-28) “My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: {28} And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand.” (Heb 6:9) But, beloved, we are persuaded better things of you, and things that accompany salvation, though we thus speak.”
Those verses have nothing to do with is being discussed.
And it is because of such that Paul knew that souls such as the Thessalonians were saved: (1 Th 1:4,8-9) “Knowing, brethren beloved, your election of God.” “For from you sounded out the word of the Lord not only in Macedonia and Achaia, but also in every place your faith to God-ward is spread abroad; so that we need not to speak any thing. {9} For they themselves show of us what manner of entering in we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;” (1 John 5:13) “These things [1:1-5:12] have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.”
Yes, producing fruit SHOWS others you are saved.
It SHOWS one's faith.
So how much 'fruit' did Lot produce, a man Peter calls a 'rightous man'?
If you didn't read 2Pe.2:7-8 and only read the OT accounts of Lot (incest, drunkeness, greed) you would never consider Lot a saved man-but he was.
'My little children let us not love in word, neither in tongue, but in deed and truth' (1Jn.3:18)
I am sorry you think a dead faith - which what Ja. 2 reproves - is salvific, as it clearly is not. Your inability to see that John 10:27-28 and Heb. 5:9 are pertinent to what qualifies as saving faith is further troubling.
As for Lot, while he is manifest as a weak Christian who made worldly decisions, he is never shown being willfully rebellious toward the known will of toward God, and he did not knowingly commit incest, nor can one say he was greedy in choosing the best land, and as for once getting drunk, Noah himself did so.
But individual instances of failures do not manifest what manner of faith one overall has, nor do some worldly choices (where you choose to live, etc.) necessarily deny that one truly believes, and Lot clearly showed fruits of faith, especially that of sacrificial love for the brethren (which a primary fruit, and is typically unique among believers), over that of his own family, and put himself in danger as well in his desperate commitment to save the angels from the Sodomites. Rahab likewise was no virgin Mary, but she manifested love for the Lord’s people by faith at the risk of her life.
In contrast are those who not repentant, and who have a dead faith, which you make Christians out of.
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