Avoid Intellectual Suicide: Do Not Interpret the Bible Like a Fundamentalist

Vox Nova ^ | May 14,2 010 | Henry Karlson

[SumProVita]

Pathetic exegesis....

[MarkBsnr]

I don't have a religion.

So when scripture says 'I and the Father are one', that doesn't really mean that Jesus is God??? Or it does but you and I can't understand that except your Church tells us so???

Oh, it means it all right, but it is not explicit in itself. The Council of Nicea was the authority that announced it under the hospices of the Holy Spirit. Given the pronouncements of the Church of Iscool, I'd say that your religion is devoid of any Holy Spirit whatsoever.

And when Jesus says 'I am the way, the truth and the life', that you and I can't possibly grasp that concept except your religion provides its private interpretation???

Have you ever read the OT? Where does 'the way, the truth and the life' mean explicitly divinity? Show me.

I'd suggest you get as far away from that religion as you possibly can, pronto...

If I joined the Church of Iscool, would I get a LaZBoy Throne in the Hall of Sunday Sports, too?

[MarkBsnr]

Like I said, you guys have to alter and pervert the scripture to make it meaningful to you...God says He WAS manifest in the flesh, NOT IS

This gets better and better. Now God is bound by time. Did you have a second bowl of YOPIOS this morning?

And then in the context, He goes on to say, justified in the Spirit, seen of angels, preached unto the Gentiles, believed on in the world, received up into glory.

All believers are justified in the Spirit; all men are seen of angels; most of the Apostles and discipes preached to the Gentiles; those who preached to believers were believed on; and all those who are received into heaven are received up into glory. All men, Iscool, and all designations for men.

Where are your explicit proofs now? You don't have any. The problem with YOPIOS is that the practitioners start with some of the Catholic teachings and then branch out on their own making it all up as they go along. Which Catholic teachings have you retained and which have you rejected? What do you consider Scripture?

[wideawake]

The fact is, ZC, that although the literal sense of Scripture is completely and unerringly true the literal sense is the foundation of Scriptural interpretation and not the entire building.

I know you know this because of your familiarity with rabbinical hermeneutics - a school of Scriptural interpretation that would appall the average Southern Christian fundamentalist.

While it is elitist and unChristian to mock and belittle the stereotypical "Bible Belt" Christian's approach to the Scriptures - and while it is entirely appropriate to take down the self-described "historical-critical school" of interpretation and its inherently godless asumptions - this is not an either/or proposition.

The Scriptures - precisely because they are not like any other book - cannot be constrained to any single, constricted school of interpretation.

As St. Thomas Aquinas pointed out, the words of a normal human book are merely descriptive but the words of Scripture do not merely describe - they accomplish with power what they describe, because they are the Word of God.

There is an approach to Scripture which kills the mind and there is an approach to Scripture which kills the soul.

Literalism is not the end of Scriptural exegesis - it is the necessary beginning.

[Mad Dawg]

Nope. No more sheep. Now when I wake up in the middle of February night and hear sleet.... Iturn over and go back to sleep ;-)

Still I miss them. I had Lincolns, Corriedales, and Finns. I liked them a lot. A good Romney is a great sheep. About the only reason I didn’t have Romneys was that they were so, deservedly, popular.

[Mad Dawg]

My question would then be...when she was on earth was she without sin?

I'm a Catholic, a convert, so I say, "Uh HUH!"

As to the virginity AND the sinlessness, this is what I was trying to get at with my eschatology chatter.

why is it important that Mary remained a virgin?

Not only will we not have sexual intercourse in heaven, we won't miss it, because we will have something better.* (see note) Those who live (IMHO, this is me, not anybody official) in the Kingdom (or maybe "TOWARDS the Kingdom" would be better) already "enjoy" at least foretastes of that something better.

I'm always a little troubled by the phrasing "why is it important" as though the notion came first and then the data were sort of tailored and selected to fit the idea. IMHO the notion grew coevally with the Bible in the Church.

I think there's an idea of some Xtians over here saying, "You know, I just BET Mary remained a virgin," and then the Zondervan and Nelson representatives show up with KJVs with zippers and pictures and maps and stuff -- and so the people are saying, "Oh Darn, how are we going to make that idea fit into this book?"

But I don't think it happened like that.

-----
* Note: I realize the idea of something better than sexual intercourse is, at best, counter-intuitive -- at least to guys. As Holy Paul says, "Great is the mystery of our religion!"

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you all for this fascinating discussion!

I would like to comment a little further on a point raised in the article offered by blue-duncan earlier on the thread. Namely, that the indwelling Holy Spirit teaches the words of God to us Christians.

But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him. - I John 2:27

But the Comforter, [which is] the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. - John 14:26

What? know ye not that your body is the temple of the Holy Ghost [which is] in you, which ye have of God, and ye are not your own? - I Corinthians 6:19

But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. - Romans 8:9

Truly, the “ears to hear” distinguish Christians from mere Bible scholars or seekers.

So then faith [cometh] by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. - Romans 10:17

Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. – John 5:24

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: - John 10:27

And these “ears to hear” cannot be obtained by the will or doings of mortal men. It is a gift of God.

Why do ye not understand my speech? [even] because ye cannot hear my word. – John 8:43

And he said, Therefore said I unto you, that no man can come unto me, except it were given unto him of my Father. – John 6:65

And Moses called unto all Israel, and said unto them, Ye have seen all that the LORD did before your eyes in the land of Egypt unto Pharaoh, and unto all his servants, and unto all his land; The great temptations which thine eyes have seen, the signs, and those great miracles: Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day. And I have led you forty years in the wilderness: your clothes are not waxen old upon you, and thy shoe is not waxen old upon thy foot. - Deuteronomy 29:2-5

And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive: For this people's heart is waxed gross, and [their] ears are dull of hearing, and their eyes they have closed; lest at any time they should see with [their] eyes, and hear with [their] ears, and should understand with [their] heart, and should be converted, and I should heal them. But blessed [are] your eyes, for they see: and your ears, for they hear. – Matthew 13:14-16

Indeed, without the Holy Spirit a person cannot discern Who Christ IS or testify that He is God.

Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and [that] no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Ghost. – I Cor 12:3

Saying, What think ye of Christ? whose son is he? They say unto him, [The Son] of David. - Matthew 22:42

He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am? And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God. And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed [it] unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven. And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. - Matthew 16:15

Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God: And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that [spirit] of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world. - 1 John 4:1-3

Nor, I aver, can a person without the Holy Spirit discern the words of God.

Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual. But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know [them], because they are spiritually discerned. - I Cor 2:13-14

And so I am not at all surprised at the great agreement among Christians concerning which ancient manuscripts contain the words of God – or their great agreement on core Christian beliefs, most especially on Who Christ IS.

The words of the LORD [are] pure words: [as] silver tried in a furnace of earth, purified seven times. Thou shalt keep them, O LORD, thou shalt preserve them from this generation for ever. – Psalms 12:6-7

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it. - Isaiah 55:11

For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. - Matthew 5:18

The words of God are powerful. They are spirit and life. They are not merely text on media. They are unlike the words of mere mortals. They enliven (quicken) us.

For the word of God [is] quick, and powerful, and sharper than any twoedged sword, piercing even to the dividing asunder of soul and spirit, and of the joints and marrow, and [is] a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart. - Hebrews 4:12

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. - John 6:63

And as we so often observe, the Creation itself testifies that it is so.

The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament sheweth his handywork. Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night sheweth knowledge. [There is] no speech nor language, [where] their voice is not heard. – Psalms 19:1-3

More specifically, we can see that physically – as spiritually – we are a message being communicated.

Physically, that message is our DNA, the information content that uniquely describes who we physically are. We are physically alive because that message, who we are, is being communicated throughout our physical bodies.

Likewise, spiritually, we are spiritually alive because His message of Who He IS is being communicated in our spirits. Or to put it another way, I am enlivened by His words. That is the “needful part” Mary found and Jesus promises will never be taken away.

Now it came to pass, as they went, that he entered into a certain village: and a certain woman named Martha received him into her house. And she had a sister called Mary, which also sat at Jesus' feet, and heard his word.

But Martha was cumbered about much serving, and came to him, and said, Lord, dost thou not care that my sister hath left me to serve alone? bid her therefore that she help me.

And Jesus answered and said unto her, Martha, Martha, thou art careful and troubled about many things: But one thing is needful: and Mary hath chosen that good part, which shall not be taken away from her. – Luke 10:38-42

When we pray for our daily bread in the Lord’s Prayer (or Our Father if you prefer) we should remember that Jesus Christ is The Word of God, our nourishment.

But he answered and said, It is written, Man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word that proceedeth out of the mouth of God. – Matt 4:4

Give us this day our daily bread. – Matt 6:11

I am that bread of life. – John 6:48

It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, [they] are spirit, and [they] are life. – John 6:63

Moreover, brethren, I would not that ye should be ignorant, how that all our fathers were under the cloud, and all passed through the sea; And were all baptized unto Moses in the cloud and in the sea; And did all eat the same spiritual meat; And did all drink the same spiritual drink: for they drank of that spiritual Rock that followed them: and that Rock was Christ. – 1 Cor 10:1-4

And so to me the premise of the article is misleading by not establishing priorities.

Mortal man’s interpretation of – or musings concerning - Scripture is irrelevant by comparison to God’s revelation to us, each and individually as we are able to bear it. Indeed, such things are divisive to the body of Christ.

And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, [even] as unto babes in Christ. I have fed you with milk, and not with meat: for hitherto ye were not able [to bear it], neither yet now are ye able.

For ye are yet carnal: for whereas [there is] among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men? For while one saith, I am of Paul; and another, I [am] of Apollos; are ye not carnal? Who then is Paul, and who [is] Apollos, but ministers by whom ye believed, even as the Lord gave to every man? I have planted, Apollos watered; but God gave the increase.

So then neither is he that planteth any thing, neither he that watereth; but God that giveth the increase. – I Corinthians 3:1-7

Man is not the measure of God.

Indeed, man should never meddle with the words of God.

Ye shall not add unto the word which I command you, neither shall ye diminish [ought] from it, that ye may keep the commandments of the LORD your God which I command you. - Deut 4:2

Howbeit in vain do they worship me, teaching [for] doctrines the commandments of men. - Matthew 7:7

Rather, Christians should consider repeating the words of God directly from Scripture a great blessing and honor that God has given to them. The angels would love to have our mission.

Of which salvation the prophets have enquired and searched diligently, who prophesied of the grace [that should come] unto you: Searching what, or what manner of time the Spirit of Christ which was in them did signify, when it testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ, and the glory that should follow. Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into. – I Peter 1:10-12

To God be the glory, not man, never man.

[Mad Dawg]

Do you also subscribe to that even though it didn’t become official, but un-biblical, ‘doctrine until the 1950’s?

The way doctrine is unfolded in the Catholic Church makes the date of something's being declared de fide subject to misinterpretation. In matters of Doctrine the Church has a function which is sometimes more judicial than executive.

The Assumption was believed by many for a long time, for centuries, and finally the Holy See responded with a declaration. So to look at the date of Munificentissimus Deus and conclude that the dogma is new is to make an, ahem, assumption.

Or the “immaculate conception’ of her who called the Son she was to bear her ‘savior’? Only sinners need a savior.

Really? May I take it then that you think guard rails, banisters, and things of that kind are useless? The person leaning on the railing around a balcony is not saved from falling because one can only be saved AFTER one falls? Last week an elderly lady was unsteady on her feet as she approached the Sacrament. I offered her my arm and we tottered up together and received together and I walked her back to her seat. She thanked me.

By your reasoning she had no cause to thank me since she had not fallen when I came up to save her from falling.

[trisham]

Last week an elderly lady was unsteady on her feet as she approached the Sacrament. I offered her my arm and we tottered up together and received together and I walked her back to her seat. She thanked me.

***********************

I hope I don't embarrass you by commenting that this story is very touching. You are a gentleman.

[Mad Dawg]

Thanks. It was a weekday Mass. We all get to know one another. She has the most LOVELY southern accent! I enjoy her a lot.

[Quix]

PRICELESS SCRIPTURES

ANOINTED COMMENTARY.

THX BIG.

[Alamo-Girl]

Thank you so much for your encouragement, dear brother in Christ!

[Quix]

the notion grew coevally with the Bible in the Church.

= = =

Politely . . . that’s not my reading of history.

That’s not my reading of God’s involvement with HIS WORD.

I’ll stop there, for now.

[Quix]

Well put.

Thx.

[Quix]

NOPE.

IF

Scripture were a !!!!TRADITION!!!! OF THE VATICAN EDIFICE

It would be just as mangled as the rest of the convoluted dogma from that source.

[WorldviewDad]

Thank you for the response.

This is where I would disagree with you on the issue of Mary being without sin. Scripture clearly teaches that “all have sinned” and Mary being fully human would be included in the “all”...it does not say “some”. I read your statement “it need not be in Scripture to be true” but would add that if it is in Scripture then it is true...if not then we end up picking and choosing what in God’s Word we accept or reject which leads to “all a man’s ways seem right to him...”.

On the virginity issue I can not be dogmatic. From simply reading Scripture it appears that Jesus had brothers and sisters which would lead me to assume that Mary had more children...and being married to Joseph I would also assume that they would have had normal marital relations. I do not see any Scripture that clearly teaches that Mary remained a virgin her enter life so I fail to see the need to build a theology on this point. That is why I asked the question “why is it important”.

God bless

P.S. Around here I am one of the few that raise romney sheep...people like the breed but raise different breeds.

[Quix]

WELL PUT.

The convoluted mental gymnastics necessary for the Mary dogma to be considered fractionally, infitesimally remotely valid in the least sense are incredible.

[Quix]

INDEED:

The very first paragraph sounds to be written by one who had already committed intellectual suicide.

[Chaguito]

For an interpretation of Scripture to be acceptable (which does not mean it is necessarily correct), it must at least conform to the basic dogmatic teachings of the Church.

And the author's argument is that the Fundamentalists' interpretation is driven by ideology. What is 'basic dogmatic teaching' if not ideology?

[Quix]

Very well put.
Very Biblically put.
Very accurately put.

Thx.