How things have changed in Presbyterian Church services in the last four centuries:
Posted on 04/11/2010 6:09:57 PM PDT by stfassisi
--W.V.O. Quine, answering someone who quoted the famous line of Hamlet.
One needs to keep this brilliant quotation in mind when dealing with too much embroidery of a very simple idea, as in the Catholic Church, Islam, and Kaballah (did I leave anyone out?).
Quix, Do you believe that not all of the Blood Christ shed was for sin? Do you believe that the shedding of some of Christ’s Blood was meaningless?
I don’t know that it’s a shocking surprise to most of us Prottys when Roman Catholics et al
have all manner of fantasies about all manner of unreal ‘theological’ nonsense, conjectures, assumptions etc.
How things have changed in Presbyterian Church services in the last four centuries:
The main difference is when Catholics do something versus when non Catholics do something. There are many here who worship the Bible, as well. They mistake the word for The Word.
That fantasized silliness comes from the early Church right back to the Apostles. St. Luke wrote (painted) the first icon that we know of - of Mary, Mother of God. If you would discard St. Luke's iconology, do you also discard his Gospel and Acts?
I can imagine you saying "AMEN ! AMEM! AMEN!" to those heretics
You mean those Chrisians who would not bow to a pope...Those people who refused to call Mary the Queen of Heaven, or Mother of God???
Those were the real Christians that your religion persecuted...
Their legacy lives on today because God promised the gates of Hell would not prevail against His church (small c)...
If you want to know who the real heretics are/were, check out the book of Acts where the anti-religion accused Paul the Apostle of being a heretic for believing the word of God...
People with too much time on their hands.
Yet nothing has apparently changed in centuries re priests molesting children and popes greasing the wheels for them
The rosary is attacked only because it it Catholic. Similar (in purpose) artifacts are extensively within the Jewish faith without criticism. Isn't a menorah a mnemonic device to organize prayer over eight days? What difference is there in theory between a rosary and a tallit or a tefillin? Why isn't a mezuzah subject of criticism. In fact isn't written scripture, prayer books and hymnals exactly the same thing as a rosary?
The answer lies in the fact that there are greater social and FR rules against the unfounded criticism or bashing of Judaism than there is against the unfounded criticism and bashing of Catholicism.
I don't think pictures of human beings are that wrong, although I understand the prohibition against graven images. But Luke with a paintbrush? Or equating the Word of God with icons? Can't buy it.
As I noted before, Anglicans and Lutherans also use Rosaries, though it is not as common as among Catholics. I cannot escape the feeling that there is NOBODY that the anti-Catholics hate more than the Mother of God.
"How beautifully difficult, and therefore true." Advice one might keep in mind when reading Matthew, particularly. It's difficult sometimes; it's work. You need to contribute something of yourself to it. Just repeating verses from Matthew will not make you a holier person either.
You are aware, I'm guessing, that criticism of anything Catholic can be summarily dismissed if you say someone is just criticizing because it's Catholic. That defense is similar to crying "Ad hominem!" when there is none, when one has made a point that needs accepting or refuting.
Is that categorical or do you have exceptions for things like the cross or the dove or the lamb? Do you believe that literacy was necessary to communicate the Word?
That was your admission that you do not know what you are talking about. Take a few minutes to educate yourself before putting your foot in your mouth.
While I am not anti-Catholic, believing rather that denominational labels serve to detract from this kind of discussion, I think you are resorting to crying “Ad hominem!” or “Victim!” rather than dealing with the issue. How could anyone in his right mind hate Jesus’ mother?
I know what I was taught growing up. I had enough of that kind of “education.” I don’t think having been raised as a Catholic gives me more license to be obnoxious about anything Catholic. That’s not my intention. But I know whereof I speak here.
You actually believe the manachians and Nestorius were the real Christians?...and by the way, Nestorius tongue rotted in his own mouth-not surprised it did
Some churches do not even have crosses or pictures of lambs, adhering to a spiritual rather than a visual adoration. I go along with them.
I am not totally critical of the others, but I wouldn't put creating icons or looking at them in church at the same level as contemplating His truth. Nowhere near it.
Icons are actually written. They are the attempt to paint a Bible passage or concept for the earliest Christians, who were mostly drawn from the poor and illiterate. The Jews of the time, IIRC, were one of the most highly educated peoples in the world, with literacy approaching 5% of the people. However, as Christianity fanned out amongst the pagans, the new converts dropped that literacy rate to about 1% overall and there had to be found a way of getting the theological concepts across and have people remember them. Hence, the icons.
We must differentiate the Word from the word. John 1 illustrates that Jesus is the Word, and Scripture is the word. Luke and John also make the point that they wrote what they saw or gathered; they were inspired, but Scripture was not dictated. The Church chose it over a period of a century and a half or so - they had to choose not only which books, but which version of which books? They had a tough job and eventually came up with the NT as we know it.
Remember too, that icons were often Biblical passages, or doctrines, 'written' or painted. Iconoclasm was declared a heresy in the eighth Century, by the way.
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