Happy Easter!
Posted on 03/14/2010 8:47:22 PM PDT by Gerhard Ebersöhn
I seem to recall the concept of zero on the number line was first advocated by the Hebrew scholars in association with the tradition or Kabbalah in their numerology. I concur with chuckles’ post regarding the feasts as providing a check on the timeline.
Happy Easter!
Obj:
You always write run-on sentences?
I stand by what I said in post #64. Your convoluted response indicates that you have two different meaning to the same expression that the Scriptures give us. What’s so difficult to understand the plain statement Jesus made? He told the Pharisees of the only “sign” they would get! That sign was His resurrection from the dead after being in the ground (heart of the earth) for three days and nights - period!
It’s that simple. Carry on....
Ans:
No sir, ‘carrying on ping pong’ or not, I MUST answer you. Do not say, ‘Jesus said’, while it is YOU, who says, “That sign was His resurrection from the dead after being in the ground (heart of the earth) for three days and nights - period!”
I won’t return an answer on this again; I’ve said my say on it; and will gladly accept being ‘the looser’ in the game.
Obj:
“Jesus said: “three days and three nights IN THE HEART OF THE EARTH” which is figurative language for LIVING, hell. It is not literal language for being “in the earth”=”in the grave”: DEAD.
Where do you find that it is “figurative” language that means “living, hell”? What do you mean by the term “hell”?
An explanation of what you mean “hell” to mean would surely help others understand what you are trying to say.”
Ans:
I did answer what I mean, ‘hell’ means. If one read Jonah you see first of all he did not die; he lived through what is translated there in the KJV as “hell” which is to live separated from God: “under the foundations of the mountains” e.g.. It is FIGURATIVE language for his very REAL experience. But his was, 1) not willingly like Jesus’ was; but by force; and 2) Jonah’s was not FULLY like Jesus’ was in that Jesus ACTUALLY DIED DEATH, “the second death” which is the REAL “wages of / for sin”. THIS was Jesus’ TRUE LIVING THROUGH OF HELL: Jesus’ experience of and on Crucifixion day from its inception until He “gave the spirit”. This is what true Christians CONFESS when they on every day the worship together, before the Congregation, before the world and before God, CONFESS for the SAVING FAITH OF CHRIST.
Where did you get your degree/degrees in theology and/or Biblical studies?
Here are some 33 points regarding the timeline of the Cross and resurrection, which help remove many a conflict amongst some half understood doctrines, and this is not to criticize your post. They are from my notes and I share them as I wish others had shared them with myself years earlier.
I am still going back through them for further elucidation, but there is significant value in their present state.
Resurrection and the Omnipotence of God.
1. Christ died twice on the cross that we might be born twice. He died spiritually to provide salvation. He died physically because His work was finished.
a. Our first birth is natural generation, in which God the Father creates human life and imputes it to the soul at birth.
b. The second birth is regeneration, by which God the Holy Spirit creates from His omnipotence a human spirit for the imputation of eternal life by God the Father.
c. In both the first and second births, the omnipotence of God is involved.
2. This anticipates the principle: the power that sustained the humanity of Christ on the cross and gave Him the enablement, the endurance to bear our sins, is the same power made available to us for the fulfillment of the protocol plan of God. The power that resurrected Christ from the dead is the same power delegated and made available to every Church Age believer for the fulfillment of the protocol plan of God.
a. The omnipotence of God is delegated, distributed, made available to every Church Age believer for the utilization of the tactical victory of the angelic conflict, which is the fulfillment of the protocol plan of God, the function of the unique life and the lifestyle of wisdom, resulting in spiritual maturity and glorification of God in this intensified stage of the angelic conflict.
b. The royal family of God is designed and empowered to glorify God. This becomes the highest destiny ever given to any group of believers in any dispensation!
3. In physical death, our Lord Jesus Christ had a trichotomous separation. His body went into the grave. His human spirit went into the presence of God the Father in the third heaven. His human soul went into the first compartment of Hades, Paradise, where all the Old Testament believers resided until the resurrection of Christ.
4. When we die, our soul and spirit go into the presence of the Lord in heaven, accompanied by Christ who indwelt us. For we are said to be “absent from the body and face to face with the Lord.” So there is no splitting up of the soul and the spirit in the death of the believer. But our Lord’s physical death was unique. Being face to face implies that we have a recognizable interim body in heaven until the Rapture.
5. In the meantime, our Lord’s body was in the grave for three days and three nights. Lk 23:53 documents this clearly. (quite a few other verses in totality confirm the 3 day period, so before too quickly criticizing this one note, I encourage the reader to study the topic through faith in Christ with patience.)
6. When the work of salvation was finished, our Lord said to the Father, “Father, into Thy hands I dismiss My spirit,” Lk 23:46, and His human spirit went into the presence of the Father.
7. He said to the dying thief in Lk 23:43, “Today shalt thou be with Me in Paradise.” His soul went into Paradise, a compartment of hades.
a. Ps 16:10 prophesied, “You will not leave my soul in hades.”
b. Acts 2:27, “His soul came out of hades.” Cf Eph 4:9.
c. While He was there, according to 1 Pet 3:18-21, the Holy Spirit guarded the soul of our Lord in hades. And by means of the Spirit, the soul of our Lord went down to Tartarus, where He made the victorious proclamation to certain fallen angels.
8. Just as our Lord’s spiritual death was unique—He was judged for all of our sins, so His physical death was unique—He had a trichotomous separation.
9. God the Father is said to be the agent of the resurrection, Eph 1:20. Col 2:12, 1 Thes 1:10, Rom 6:4, and 1 Pet 1:21 all say that God the Father raised Him from the dead.
10. But Scripture also says the Holy Spirit raised Him from the dead, as in Acts 2:24, Rom 1:4, Rom 8:11, and 1 Pet 3:18. So God the Holy Spirit is also the agent of the resurrection.
11. The omnipotence of the Father sent our Lord’s human spirit through billions and billions of light years of space to His body in the tomb. Simultaneously, the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit returned His human soul from Hades to His body. Now rejoined in the resurrection body, our Lord walked through the stone. Later on, an angel rolled away the stone so that the world could see and verify the resurrection. The power that resurrected Christ was made possible to a human being from the omnipotence of God the Father and the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit.
12. Scripture.
a. Eph 1:20, “which power He put into operation by means of Christ when He [God the Father] raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand.”
b. In Acts 2:31 Peter said, “He [David] looking ahead spoke of the resurrection of Christ, that He was neither abandoned in Hades nor did His flesh see decay.”
c. Rom 6:4, “Therefore, we have been buried with Him [Christ] through baptism into death [baptism of the Spirit] in order that, as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life.”
d. 2 Cor 13:4, “For indeed He was crucified because of weakness [ours], yet He lives because of the power of God.”
e. That is why Paul said in Phil 3:10, “that I may come to know Him and the power of His resurrection.”
13. Hence, the importance of epistemological rehabilitation after salvation. Cognition of the resurrection includes understanding divine omnipotence as the mechanics. The same divine omnipotence becomes the mechanics for the two great events of history: the execution of the protocol plan of God, and the Rapture of the Church.
14. Christ did not use His own divine power in His resurrection. During the incarnation, our Lord voluntarily restricted the independent use of His own divine attributes, including His omnipotence, in compliance with the Father’s plan for the incarnation and the strategic victory of the angelic conflict.
15. Christ could have used His own omnipotence at the cross; He could have delivered Himself and raised His own body from the dead. But instead, He depended upon the omnipotence of God the Father and the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit. This is taught in Jn 10:17-18: “For this reason, the Father loves Me, because I lay down My soul that I might receive it again. No one has taken it [My life] from Me; but I lay it down from the source of Myself. I have the power to lay it down [i.e., the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit sustaining Him in prototype divine dynasphere]; I have the power to receive it again. This mandate I have received from the Father.”
a. Jesus Christ surrendered His human spirit to the Father in heaven and His soul to the Holy Spirit in Hades that He might receive His soul and spirit again.
b. “I have the power to lay it down.” The humanity of Christ had the power to surrender His own life by means of the sustaining omnipotence of the Holy Spirit inside the prototype divine dynasphere.
16. However, during the incarnation, the deity of Christ was still holding the universe together.
a. Col 1:16, “By Him were all things held together.”
b. Heb 1:3, “Upholding all things by the word of His power.”
17. The great power experiment of the Hypostatic Union emphasizes all three members of the Trinity, but only the omnipotence of God the Father and the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit pertain to modus operandi of the humanity of Christ, and then the modus operandi of every Church Age believer.
18. The power of resurrection.
a. Our Lord had the power and authority to receive His life again. This authority or power came from the omnipotence of God the Father, who restored our Lord’s human spirit to His body, and from the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit, who restored our Lord’s human soul to His body.
b. At that moment, the human spirit and soul of our Lord rejoined His body in the grave through the agency of the omnipotence of God, and the humanity of Christ was resurrected.
c. In His resurrection body, He walked through the solid stone of His tomb. The resurrection body is designed so that it can walk between the space of molecules!
19. So although Jesus Christ Himself had the power to bring Himself back from the dead, in obedience to the mandate of the Father, and in reliance upon the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit; our Lord in Hypostatic Union voluntarily restricted the independent use of His omnipotence and established the pattern for the successful fulfillment of the protocol plan of God in this Church Age.
20. Therefore, during the period of His physical death, Jesus Christ did not exercise His omnipotence to benefit Himself, to provide for Himself, to raise Himself from the dead, or to glorify Himself in any way.
21. The identical omnipotence of God the Father and omnipotence of the Holy Spirit that raised Christ from the dead is the same power that has been provided for us in grace to execute the protocol plan of God. The great power experiment of the Hypostatic Union turned history around, for now in the Church Age the same omnipotence of God the Father and omnipotence of the Holy Spirit is available to you in the mechanics of the protocol plan of God and in the promises and guarantees in our portfolio of invisible assets.
a. The omnipotence of God the Father is available to you related to your portfolio of invisible assets.
b. The omnipotence of Jesus Christ is available to you, for He not only holds the universe together but at the same time perpetuates human history a day at the time.
c. The omnipotence of the Holy Spirit is available to you related to residence, function, and momentum inside your very own palace, the operational-type divine dynasphere.
22. Never before in history has so much divine omnipotence been available to so many believers for the glorification of God through the execution of His will, His plan, and His purpose. You have available to you the greatest power!
23. The omnipotence that raised Jesus Christ from the dead will also raise you as believers at the Rapture of the Church.
a. The omnipotence of God the Father will provide the resurrection body for all the dead in Christ.
b. The omnipotence of the Holy Spirit will provide a resurrection body for all who are alive on the earth at that time.
24. Phil 3:20-21, “For our politeuma is in heaven, from which we eagerly await for our Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, who will transform this body of our humiliation so that it will be like the body of His glory on the basis of the power that enabled Him to bring into subjection all creatures to Himself.”
25. Therefore, the victory of resurrection is given to every believer in Jesus Christ regardless of his spiritual status in time, whether he is a winner or a loser.
a. The carnal Christian is a loser living in the cosmic system, steeped in reversionism, under organized arrogance. He is often much worse than the unbeliever, yet he will receive a resurrection body at the Rapture of the Church.
b. The mature believer is a winner, an invisible hero. He has executed the protocol plan of God. He has maximum invisible impact in life. He will receive a resurrection body also at the Rapture, but he too is still a part of the grace system.
c. Neither winner nor loser deserves the right to have a resurrection body and to live in the presence of God forever.
d. The difference between winners and losers in the eternal state is a matter of escrow blessings and rewards; it is not a matter of the resurrection body.
26. Since resurrection is the Lord’s victory, both winners and losers will spend eternity in the presence of God in resurrection bodies. That is grace based upon 1 Jn 5:11-12. “In fact, this is the deposition: that God has given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son. He who has the Son has this eternal life. He who does not have the Son does not have eternal life.”
27. God’s grace and God’s victory begins at salvation through faith in Jesus Christ, continues in time under the protocol plan of God where we do have some control as to what kind of believers we are, and it concludes in the eternal state where we have no control at all.
28. The same power, the omnipotence of God the Father and the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit, that raised Christ from the dead is the same power by which the Church Age believer fulfills the protocol plan of God. If we’re going to use this power, we have to know that exists, we have to know that it’s available, and we have to know the mechanics of utilization.
29. 1 Pet 1:3-8, “Blessed be the God even the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His great mercy has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead; to obtain an inheritance [the resurrection body] which is incorruptible and undefiled, and does not fade away, reserved in heaven for you who are guarded by the power of God through faith, for a deliverance ready to be revealed at the last time. In this you greatly rejoice, even though now for a little while, if necessary, you have been distressed by various categories of suffering; that the proof of your faith [doctrine], being much more precious than gold which is perishable, even though tested by fire, may be found to result in the praise, the honor, the glory at the revelation of Jesus Christ. And though you have not seen Him you love Him, and though you do not see Him now but believe in Him, you greatly rejoice with joy inexpressible and full of glory.”
a. What is this “living hope?” It is the fact that your power, abilities, & strengths will contribute nothing to Christianity. God has provided the power, the ability, and the strength through regeneration, made available in the protocol plan of God.
b. An inheritance which is imperishable and undefiled is an inheritance based on divine power rather than human power, on God’s grace rather than human accomplishment. It will not fade away because God’s power cannot fade.
c. The power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead is the same power that provides eternal security for every believer, winner or loser.
d. The “deliverance” refers to the resurrection of the Church, effected by the omnipotence of God the Father and the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit. The power that raised Christ from the dead is the same power by which Church Age believers have eternal security and the means of fulfilling the protocol plan of God.
e. This passage explains the death of the believer in terms of God’s grace, and the future of the believer in terms of resurrection. For resurrection belongs to every believer in the Lord Jesus Christ.
30. Rom 1:4, “Who was demonstrated the Son of God by means of power belonging to the Holy Spirit, by means of the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord.”
31. Rom 8:11, “Now if the Spirit from Him [God the Father] who raised Jesus from the dead indwells you [and He does], He [God the Father] who raised Jesus Christ from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through His Spirit who indwells you.” There is no spiritual life apart from the omnipotence of the Holy Spirit.
a. God the Holy Spirit returned the human soul of Jesus Christ to His body in the tomb. God the Father returned our Lord’s soul to His body in the tomb. Therefore, it is not surprising that both God the Holy Spirit and God the Father play a part in the resurrection of the Church.
b. God the Father provides the resurrection bodies for those who are in interim bodies in heaven when the rapture of the Church occurs. God the Holy Spirit, who is indwelling believers who are alive on earth when the rapture of the Church occurs, provides the resurrection bodies for living believers.
c. Compare Eph 1:19-20, “and what is the surpassing greatness of His power to us who have believed for the working of His superior power, which power He put into operation by means of Christ, when He raised Him from the dead and seated Him at His right hand in the heavenly places.” The power that raised Jesus Christ from the dead is the same power that gives you a resurrection body in the future. That same power has been given to us for the execution of the unique spiritual life of the Church Age.
32. 1 Pet 3:18, “Because Christ also once died with reference to sins, the righteous on behalf of the unrighteous, in order that He might bring us to God; on the one hand, having died physically, but on the other hand, having been made alive by means of the Holy Spirit.” We were brought to God by grace. It was the work of the Father who judged our sins from His omnipotence. It was the work of the Son who endured the cross; it was the work of the Holy Spirit who sustained the humanity of Christ for the most intense and awful suffering the world has ever known.
33. Phil 3:10, “that I may come to know Him and the power of His resurrection. . .”
Obj:
“You should read the rest of the passage you took the words of Jesus from (Mt. 12:41-42). You try to insinuate that Jesus was not buried in a grave, but in “hell”. Jesus died and was buried, and three days and nights later He rose from the dead. He did not go to what many think is a “hell” today, but to the grave “in the heart of the earth” - i.e., buried in the earth.
Whether he was figuratively or literally in hell, what does it matter. For three days he was estranged from his Father because he voluntarily took the responsibility of sins of the whole world, past, present, and future.
Just that action, in and of itself was hell.
The seperation from his Holy Father, in and of itself, was Hell, physical location or not.
It will be the same for those who turn down the atonement of Jesus Christ and refuse to surrender their will to God.
The worst part of that Hell they will reside in for the rest of eternity, will be the final and complete seperation from God the Father, Jesus his Son, and the Holy Spirit.
Once again, it would seem we are arguing over non-important details, and missing the big picture.”
Ans:
No; it’s not me who didn’t Read Matthew properly; it’s you who didn’t read me, properly. I did NOT say or “insinuate”, “that Jesus was not buried in a grave, but in “hell”.” Where do you find that? not in my posts, I’ll tell you straight! I said Jesus was BURIED in the earth in the grave by Joseph and Nicodemus -— in the end joined by the women -— on ‘Friday’ which happened to be in that year the Sixth Day of the week -— and in ALL the Scriptures would have been and indeed “WAS, great day sabbath” of passover: day APPOINTED for to return to the earth “THAT WHICH REMAINED” (the body) of the Passover Sacrifice, the LIFE of Jesus. The second day of the “three days” of “three days and three nights” OF THE PASSOVER -— no arbitrary three days, but the “three days” “on the third day” of which the Passover Lamb of God Jesus Christ would RISE : “from THE DEAD again”, “ACCORDING TO THE SCRIPTURES”. There you have your definition of what ‘hell’ as far as Jesus’ having been in the grave and in the earth means as well: “THE DEAD” : the REALM of the dead: DEATH. But this is NOT ALL of what ‘hell meant’ in Jesus’ case. This was only the part on and of the second day of the passover (and part on and of the third day of passover) UNTIL He resurrected “the third day”.
Therefore, instead of saying: “Jesus died and was buried, and three days and nights later He rose from the dead”, say: ‘Jesus DIED, and three days and nights later He rose from the dead’ because He wasn’t killed AND buried on the same day like popular opinion would have it. Which popular and traditional opinion was formed by analogy of PAGAN gods’ death and resurrections. You can check up, their getting buried is their killing virtually. But the Saviour of the Scriptures had to be killed on the day that the essence of his Life had to be drained (leaven removed) Mk14:12 Mt26:17 Lk22:7 Jn13:1 and on the FOLLOWING day “that which remained” had to be interred; the two days being absolutely SEPARATED by the goings-out of Israel from Egypt — death itself FIRST — before they could burn the remains of the passover sacrifice in the DESERT -— symbolic of the place of desolation and forgottenness, the grave.
You said, “Once again, it would seem we are arguing over non-important details, and missing the big picture.” I don’t think so; How Jesus fulfilled ‘hell’ in our place is more important than our fallible and weak and sinful discovery of that experience in and by ourselves. That’s why it’s so important what Paul expressed as our crucifixion and resurrection “IN CHRIST” and “WITH Him” -— HIS fulfilling the plan and purpose of God “for us” even ours: “in Him”. We have not missed the IMPORTANT thing. Jesus is more important thatn us; and his fulfilling God’s promises and Law far outweighs ours.
Obj:
“Well, maybe you aren’t understanding me or I’m not understanding you. You just believe what you want then and that’s ok. Jesus didn’t come to change the Law, He came to fulfill it. In your mind, murder would be OK because God has forgiven your sins. Fine, but I don’t think so. I got the impression you were fine with the change of the Sabbath to Sunday. I don’t know. I’ll have to go back and re read your posts, but I don’t really have the time.”
Ans:
I don’t think you paid attention to one sentence I wrote, with apologies, dear friend.
Please write in English, if you don’t mind ....
For my own sake and selves, let me say here I am a ‘Dopper’, that is, a Boer (Afrikaner) of Reformed Protestant Christian Faith and persuasion. I dissociate me from ANY who do not believe and confess the eternal and full Divinity (and or ‘Deity’) and Godhead of Jesus Christ with the Father and the Holy Spirit.
Obj:
“The Sabbath was the Jewish Sabbath and Christ was rushed into burial before the sun went down and the Sabbath began.”
Ans:
All ‘sabbaths’ were ‘Jewish’ not because they were Jewish but because they were Scriptural. It’s an irrelevant to our subject now, fact.
In the context of the ‘sabbath’ referred to in Jn19:31 the ‘Jewish sabbath’ was not “the Seventh Day Sabbath of the LORD your God”, but “the sabbath” referred to in PASSOVER-CONTEXT in Lv23:11,15 also called “That Day” in Ex 12-15 and “great day” etc. in other places: STRICTLY, “The Feast” of passover; STRICTLY: the fifteenth day of the First Month. IT WAS THIS ‘sabbath’ which in Mk15:42 Mt27:57 Jn19:31,38 Lk23:50 BEGAN. IT WAS THIS ‘sabbath’ which in Lk23:54 Jn19:42 BEGAN TO END. In between lay “That Day of great day sabbath’s” passover-significance in its God-given and therefore eschatologically imperative wholeness, the second of the “three days” of “three days and three nights” each.
There simply EXISTS NOTHING of or like “rushed into burial before the sun went down and the Sabbath [Seventh Day] began.”
I am of far too inferior intellect to grasp one word’s meaning
Are you worried about your salvation? I’m not worried about mine ....
Are you worried about the salvation of others? Why worry if God worried about their salvation already?
No, dear brother in Jesus Christ (which I doubt no second; but perhaps you may regret that I am) “He is our Peace” says the Word by every word of, said Jesus, man shall live. If we like to have something to worry about — which we all do like very much to have — let us worry then about ‘every word’ in the Scriptures the Word of God. Or do you think by paying utmost attention to the least of these words of God will do me — or you — harm? Again, God knows who are his; why must I be panicky? I enjoy His Word so much I do not find the time to worry about ‘salvation’. In any case, I enjoy so utterly what GIANTS OF THE FAITH already have thought and said about ‘salvation’ I cannot contribute anything in comparison, I feel. I’m too insignificant for the greater stuff; so I leave it in God’s own hands.
Besides, too many hypocrites noise over salvation, love, charity, and all that jazz, I am uncomfortable and discomforted completely in their presence or conversation. You know, deep in my soul, I hate hypocrisy and hypocrites. For me, to deny that I do, will be hypocrisy of my own. In any case, I have nothing to drop in the chest-of-gold; and afterwards would trust none of its treasurers whose greedy fingers reach deep and cleverly anyway.
I have not read further than your 2nd ‘point’. I am elated!
Expect a LONG absence form me on this forum, for I see forward to STUDY your 33 points, Thank you very much, wish I was confronted with something like this yers before ....!
And here I am back, a few minutes later ..... only to have seen you don’t address the issues I raised when I introduced this topic. They say I use a lot of philosophy ..... man; they should read you .....
However, I’m concerned with the “time-line” of Jesus’ death, burial and resurrection here; with nothing else except maybe where ‘theological’ or ‘philosophical’ elements can positively be READ into it from the Scriptures with direct and clear BEARING and RELEVANCY.
I’ll continue later; first want to take a rest ..... after my disappointment.
Read points 3-11.
Right on target my friend!!!!
Jedidah, I agree with our conclusions.
Further, in addition to John’s mention of special Sabbath, Matthew 28:1 states “Sabbaths”, not “Sabbath”.
It appears there were at two Sabbaths.
Also, even if, as bobjam suggested, the counting begins as Friday being the first day counted with his monopoly example, this still cannot account for both 3 DAYS and 3 NIGHTS, even in Jewish reconing of days beginning and ending at sunset. Simpply not at all possible.
In order for Jesus’s promise of 3 days and 3 nights to have been fulfilled accurately, the crucifixion must have occurred on Thursday.
His peace to all who seek His truth.
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