Posted on 03/12/2010 7:02:37 AM PST by Colofornian
That’s it?
Ok...
Thanks.
No, the NT clearly describes the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost as “God” but it avoids using the formulas used to define the threeness of the Godhead that originated from Greek Philosophy which resulted in the Traditional “Trinity.”
Biblical Triad yes, Trinitarian no.
Baloney.
Equating polygamy with a perceived inferiority of women is an unwarranted assumption.
I find it amusing that you would know more about what *I* believe than me.
My wife stays at home while I run my business. I don’t think she is inferior. Are you now claiming anyone who agrees with McConkie thinks homemakers are inferior? Furthermore, since when has McConkie’s writings been Scripture to the LDS? Another strawman.
Why do LDS women in Utah have a higher than average use of anti-depressants? What exactly is the cause? Your constant psychoanalysis of the negative self-image of LDS women is highly dubious since the most likely cause is stress relief. Since Utah is predominantly LDS, its alcohol consumption is dead last in the US. Why? Because the church expressly prohibits alcohol whereas anti-depressants have no explicit prohibition. So, to an LDS wishing to relieve stress while abiding by the church’s teachings; what others normally take to relieve stress, namely alcohol, is a non-starter but anti-depressants work just as well and carries no explicit ban. Get a prescription and viola! Stress relief via Zoloft.
Are you honest enough to admit I’m right?
It is stressful raising large number of children (friends of ours who are Evangelicals have five children - the wife is a homemaker, a registered nurse, but is taking psychotropic medication - she told us why and it has nothing to do with feeling inferior - it’s for stress). LDS women have limited time for relaxation, shoulder a greater burden of raising the children due to the father’s constant absence from the home, lack time to hang out with friends.
Heck, I was supposed to hang out with a buddy last night but had to cancel since my wife wanted to spend time with me. When we go on family vacations and I want to go to the East Coast and she wants to go to California we compromise; we go to California.
As one who has lived within the LDS faith for my entire adult life, I can’t think of any LDS women who think they are inferior to men. I know my wife will just laugh in my face if I ever suggested it (pssst, don’t tell her).
Polytheistic Monotheism...
(Or is it simply polymonotheism?)
How can anyone question LDS doctrine when it is so simple...
First of all, throwing the label “polytheism” is just name-calling and intellectually shallow. To Jews and Muslims, faiths with strict monotheism, the Christian Trinity is polytheistic.
Thus the term is relative with no fixed definition.
Secondly, if we’re polytheistic so is the Bible since it clearly describes the existence of entities called gods who are ruled by Eloheim or YHWH. This is why scholars describe the earliest Hebrew thought as using the Divine Council model.
The evidences that the Divine Council is authentic early biblical thought is so overwhelming that most legitimate religious scholars freely admit it. Here’s a representative sample. None of these sources are LDS btw.
The Anchor Bible Dictionary. (6 Volumes). Editor-in-Chief: David Noel Freedman. (Doubleday, New York). Copyright © 1992 by Doubleday. 1:249-252; 835; 2:214-217; 3:238,302; 4:43,922,1004-1010; 5:986; 6:129,156-157,510-511;
The Triumph of Elohim. From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Ed. Diana Vikander Edelman. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). © 1995 Kok Pharos Publishing House, Kampen, the Netherlands. This edition published 1996 through special arrangement with Kok Pharos by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. pp.28 f.2, 30-31,36-38,40-43,60-63,65,71,80,91;
The Early History of God. Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel. Mark S. Smith. (Harper and Row Publishers, San Francisco). Copyright © 1990 Mark S. Smith. pp. 9-10,26,101,114 e#138,165;
The New Interpreter’s Bible. (In 12 Volumes). (Abingdon Press, Nashville). Vol 1 © 1994. Vol 4 © 1996. Both by Abingdon Press. 1:272-274; 4:347,792,1006-1007,1035, 1093;
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary. In three parts. (Inter-Varsity Press. Tyndale House Publishers. Hodder and Stoughton. Sydney and Auckland). © The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, 1980. p. 1474;
The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible. Including the Apocrypha, with General Articles. Ed. Charles M. Layman. (Abingdon Press, Nashville.) Copyright © 1971 by Abingdon Press. 14th Printing, 1992. pp. 285,263,279;
Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. (15 Volumes). Editors: G. Johannes Botterweck, Helmer Ringgren & Heinz Josef Fabry. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyrights © 1974-1997 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 1:254,258,282; 5:519-520;
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. (10 Volumes). Eds: Gerhard Kittle & Gerhard Friedrich. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1964-1976 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 8:347-349;
The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary. Gen. Ed. J. Achtemeier. (Harper, San Francisco). Copyright © 1985,1996 by The Society of Biblical Literature. pp. 276,1054;
The Jerome Biblical Commentary. Edited by Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer and Roland E. Murphy. Two volumes in one. (Prentice-Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey). © 1968 by Prentice-Hall, Inc. 2:20 (1); 6:74 (8); 16:17 (8); 22:9 (A); 35:26 (6), 46 (1), 74 (Pref-2), 98 (Pref-2,6-7);
Dictionary of the Bible. Ed. James Hastings. Rev. Edition by Frederick C. Grant and H. H. Rowley. (Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York). Copyright © 1963 T&T Clark and Charles Scribner’s Sons. pp. 32,134,334;
A History of God. The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Karen Armstrong. (Alfred A. Knopf, New York. 1994). Copyright © 1993 by Karen Armstrong. pp. 50-51;
Mercer Dictionary of the Bible. Gen. Ed. Watson E. Mills. (Mercer University Press. Macon, Georgia). Copyright © 1990 Mercer University Press, Macon, Georgia. Second and Corrected Printing, July 1991. pp. 176-177, 581,845;
New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis. Gen. Ed. William A. VanGemeren. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1997 by William A. VanGemeren. 1:375-376;
The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. (12 Volumes) With the NIV. Gen. Ed. Frank E. Gæbelein. The Zondervan NIV Bible Library. 2.5.1. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1989-1997 The Zondervan Corporation. Job. Intro 8; 1:6-12,20; 34:1; Ps 82:1;
Dictionary of the Bible. John L. MacKenzie. S.J. (Collier Books, MacMillan Publishing Company, New York). Copyright © 1965 by MacMillan Publishing Company. pp. 30, 316, 830;
A New Standard Bible Dictionary. Edited by Melancthon W. Jacobus, Elbert C. Lane & Andrew C. Zenos. (Funk and Wagnalls Company, New York). Third Revised Edition. Copyright 1936 by Funk & Wagnalls Company. pp. 46-47;
The Religious Background of the Bible. J. N. Schofield. (Thomas Nelson and Sons Ltd, London: 1944). p. 181;
The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Rev. Ed. Allen C. Myers. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1987 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 55;
The New Layman’s Bible Commentary. In One Volume. Ed: G. C. D. Howley; F. F. Bruce & H. L. Ellison. (Regency Reference Library. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Copyright © 1979 by Pickering & Inglis LTD, Glasgow Scotland under the title Bible Commentary for Today. pp. 308, 618, 659;
The New Bible Dictionary. Organizing Editor: J.D. Douglas. (William. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). © The Inter-Varsity Fellowship, 1962. p. 1206;
Judaism and Christian Beginnings. Samuel Sandmel (Oxford University Press, New York: 1978). Copyright © 1978 by Samuel Sandmel. pp. 169, 171, 173.
You’re welcome.
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/polytheism
Polytheism: belief in OR worship of more than one god.
One of the things that always fascinates me about those trying to disprove the truth is how deep they have to go to try and redefine things.
You give a long list of citations to show that something without a “fixed definition”, which of course it does.
There is either one entity with the power and title of god, or more than one, and if you believe (not just worship which is a LDS loophole that is often played) that there are more than one then you are, by definition, polytheistic. Any arguments otherwise are intellectually dishonest and an attempt to hide a fact that in essence I cannot see why it needs to be hidden. If it is part of ones beliefs why not stand up for it.
Unless of course these are reasons to do otherwise, which I find odd since the LDS very clearly believe that there is more than one entity with the power of a god. If there weren't then what is it with the arguments about achieving godhood yourselves?
Anyways, in as much as you post a number of citations, a few I have even read, that discuss the older traditions of many gods and god by committee that was a part of the Jewish tradition in its early history recorded in the Bible all of that was superseded and dismissed by the words of God himself to his people as time moved on and are not current beliefs, nor have they been for a few thousand years. Modern Judaism and by relationship Chritianinty are distinctly Monotheistic systems. God told us who he was and that he was it, there were none other. Toss your false gods and idols aside whom ever they maybe, there is only one God and he is all we need.
Isaiah 44:6-8 (King James Version)
6Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God.
7And who, as I, shall call, and shall declare it, and set it in order for me, since I appointed the ancient people? and the things that are coming, and shall come, let them shew unto them.
8Fear ye not, neither be afraid: have not I told thee from that time, and have declared it? ye are even my witnesses. Is there a God beside me? yea, there is no God; I know not any.
Hard to argue with God when he is that clear about things, though I am sure you will try...
Bawahahaha, the 'eternal principle' established shortly after the mormonite movement began. The treatment of those women paraded the low status of women.
Are you now claiming anyone who agrees with McConkie thinks homemakers are inferior?
Homemakers are not inferior - molly mormons who are not allowed to inspire above that is making women inferior.
Furthermore, since when has McConkie’s writings been Scripture to the LDS? Another strawman.
The APOSTLE McConkie (as well as all the other apostles) speak to doctrine all the time - why else would there be the GC with everyone on the edge of their seats for the next word).
So, to an LDS wishing to relieve stress while abiding by the church’s teachings; what others normally take to relieve stress, namely alcohol, is a non-starter but anti-depressants work just as well and carries no explicit ban. Get a prescription and viola! Stress relief via Zoloft.
Thank you for confirming this. So mormon women have to resort to prescription drug abuse to enable them to put up with their secondary status.
shoulder a greater burden of raising the children due to the father’s constant absence from the home, lack time to hang out with friends.
Because the MAN is more important, has to handle church business, little wifie stay home, don't get out because I the mormon MAN is the only one allowed to - thanks eddie for making my point.
Nonsense. I find it intriguing a military intelligence guy confuses authority with supremacy.
So, when you were in the military, your superiors were ONTOLOGICALLY superior to you?
Is your joke of a president ONTOLOGICALLY SUPERIOR to you just because he has authority over you?
If this is how you do analysis, no wonder you’re no longer in the military.
Dishonorable discharge, eh?
I provided you with around 50 references from the best biblical scholars in the world who ALL AGREE the earliest portions of the Bible taught the Divine Council, where Eloheim (and later YHWH) ruled the council of the gods.
Here they are again - if you can’t be bothered checking up just one of these references; that then tells me your competency and your honesty.
The Anchor Bible Dictionary. (6 Volumes). Editor-in-Chief: David Noel Freedman. (Doubleday, New York). Copyright © 1992 by Doubleday. 1:249-252; 835; 2:214-217; 3:238,302; 4:43,922,1004-1010; 5:986; 6:129,156-157,510-511;
The Triumph of Elohim. From Yahwisms to Judaisms. Ed. Diana Vikander Edelman. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). © 1995 Kok Pharos Publishing House, Kampen, the Netherlands. This edition published 1996 through special arrangement with Kok Pharos by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. pp.28 f.2, 30-31,36-38,40-43,60-63,65,71,80,91;
The Early History of God. Yahweh and Other Deities in Ancient Israel. Mark S. Smith. (Harper and Row Publishers, San Francisco). Copyright © 1990 Mark S. Smith. pp. 9-10,26,101,114 e#138,165;
The New Interpreter’s Bible. (In 12 Volumes). (Abingdon Press, Nashville). Vol 1 © 1994. Vol 4 © 1996. Both by Abingdon Press. 1:272-274; 4:347,792,1006-1007,1035, 1093;
The Illustrated Bible Dictionary. In three parts. (Inter-Varsity Press. Tyndale House Publishers. Hodder and Stoughton. Sydney and Auckland). © The Universities and Colleges Christian Fellowship, 1980. p. 1474;
The Interpreter’s One-Volume Commentary on the Bible. Including the Apocrypha, with General Articles. Ed. Charles M. Layman. (Abingdon Press, Nashville.) Copyright © 1971 by Abingdon Press. 14th Printing, 1992. pp. 285,263,279;
Theological Dictionary of the Old Testament. (15 Volumes). Editors: G. Johannes Botterweck, Helmer Ringgren & Heinz Josef Fabry. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyrights © 1974-1997 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 1:254,258,282; 5:519-520;
Theological Dictionary of the New Testament. (10 Volumes). Eds: Gerhard Kittle & Gerhard Friedrich. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1964-1976 by William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. 8:347-349;
The HarperCollins Bible Dictionary. Gen. Ed. J. Achtemeier. (Harper, San Francisco). Copyright © 1985,1996 by The Society of Biblical Literature. pp. 276,1054;
The Jerome Biblical Commentary. Edited by Raymond E. Brown, Joseph A. Fitzmyer and Roland E. Murphy. Two volumes in one. (Prentice-Hall, Inc. Englewood Cliffs, New Jersey). © 1968 by Prentice-Hall, Inc. 2:20 (1); 6:74 (8); 16:17 (8); 22:9 (A); 35:26 (6), 46 (1), 74 (Pref-2), 98 (Pref-2,6-7);
Dictionary of the Bible. Ed. James Hastings. Rev. Edition by Frederick C. Grant and H. H. Rowley. (Charles Scribner’s Sons, New York). Copyright © 1963 T&T Clark and Charles Scribner’s Sons. pp. 32,134,334;
A History of God. The 4000-Year Quest of Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Karen Armstrong. (Alfred A. Knopf, New York. 1994). Copyright © 1993 by Karen Armstrong. pp. 50-51;
Mercer Dictionary of the Bible. Gen. Ed. Watson E. Mills. (Mercer University Press. Macon, Georgia). Copyright © 1990 Mercer University Press, Macon, Georgia. Second and Corrected Printing, July 1991. pp. 176-177, 581,845;
New International Dictionary of Old Testament Theology and Exegesis. Gen. Ed. William A. VanGemeren. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1997 by William A. VanGemeren. 1:375-376;
The Expositor’s Bible Commentary. (12 Volumes) With the NIV. Gen. Ed. Frank E. Gæbelein. The Zondervan NIV Bible Library. 2.5.1. (Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1989-1997 The Zondervan Corporation. Job. Intro 8; 1:6-12,20; 34:1; Ps 82:1;
Dictionary of the Bible. John L. MacKenzie. S.J. (Collier Books, MacMillan Publishing Company, New York). Copyright © 1965 by MacMillan Publishing Company. pp. 30, 316, 830;
A New Standard Bible Dictionary. Edited by Melancthon W. Jacobus, Elbert C. Lane & Andrew C. Zenos. (Funk and Wagnalls Company, New York). Third Revised Edition. Copyright 1936 by Funk & Wagnalls Company. pp. 46-47;
The Religious Background of the Bible. J. N. Schofield. (Thomas Nelson and Sons Ltd, London: 1944). p. 181;
The Eerdmans Bible Dictionary. Rev. Ed. Allen C. Myers. (William B. Eerdmans Publishing Company, Grand Rapids, Michigan). Copyright © 1987 by Wm. B. Eerdmans Publishing Co. p. 55;
The New Layman’s Bible Commentary. In One Volume. Ed: G. C. D. Howley; F. F. Bruce & H. L. Ellison. (Regency Reference Library. Zondervan Publishing House, Grand Rapids, Michigan. Copyright © 1979 by Pickering & Inglis LTD, Glasgow Scotland under the title Bible Commentary for Today. pp. 308, 618, 659;
The New Bible Dictionary. Organizing Editor: J.D. Douglas. (William. B. Eerdmans Publishing Company. Grand Rapids, Michigan). © The Inter-Varsity Fellowship, 1962. p. 1206;
Judaism and Christian Beginnings. Samuel Sandmel (Oxford University Press, New York: 1978). Copyright © 1978 by Samuel Sandmel. pp. 169, 171, 173.
I agree with it as well.
Where is the problem?
Now that right there, coming form an LDS member, is about the funniest most ironic thing I have seen in a long time...
Whew doggies, I got to go catch my breath...
There's no "perhaps" about it EW. The passage clearly states that men become gods because of their works, eternal marriage and compliance with the doctrines espoused in the D&C. It has nothing to do with supporting the LdS belief that Christ is God.
Matthew clearly states the fallacy of eternal marriage here;
Matt. 22:24 Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
25 Now there were with us seven brethren: and the first, when he had married a wife, deceased, and, having no issue, left his wife unto his brother:
26 Likewise the second also, and the third, unto the seventh.
27 And last of all the woman died also.
28 Therefore in the resurrection whose wife shall she be of the seven? for they all had her.
29 Jesus answered and said unto them, Ye do err, not knowing the scriptures, nor the power of God.
30 For in the resurrection they neither marry, nor are given in marriage, but are as the angels of God in heaven.
Is this one of those "mistranslated" portions of the Bible?
According to the doctrines of mormonism, man can become a god because of the temple ordinances(eternal marriage) which are not found in any LdS scripture, only the admonition to do so under penalty of not attaining godhood if one does not do so.
I served 10 years as an officer and left when my knees would no longer permited me to run with the troops. I served additional time in the IRR as was promoted there to the rank of Major. My discharges were honorable.
You can take your spite against my service back to canada where it belongs. Your bile towards any one who willing served their country doesn't deserve to be on this board.
Watson is still pissed at the outcome of WWII. lol
I couldn't say, but his comments toward a veteran in that fashion are completely overboard for FR standards.
3 points. Which biblical reference(s) are you referring to in those books? Easier to verify context.
Second, you mistake the ‘divine council’ equaling the 3 separate gods united (only) in purpose, when in fact most non-LDS, non Jewish scholars see it as a reflection of the Trinity. 3 personages in one essence.
Third, some of the scholars are reputable, some are not, and none would be considered conservative Christian.
One more point, only a few would be considered recent (or scholarly) enough to be used as citations in an academic paper.
The rule in Biblical Studies and Ancient History tends to be don’t use anything over 20 years old.
And K. Armstrong’s bias makes her a questionable source for many.
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