Posted on 12/16/2009 3:23:30 AM PST by Zakeet
Listen, if you want to support heretics and charlatans that is your business. If you really believe these men and women are committed to doing “God’s work”, you are horribly deceived.
Please see also my post #14, above.
The thing is, charatans like Roberts are not seeking to put off sin and live holy lives, they actively embrace covetousness and heresy, and line their own pockets with huge amounts of money by deceiving Christians.
There is a million miles worth of difference between these transparent charlatans, and a good, sincere, godly, pastor or evangelist, who does his best to serve God, but occasionally gets something wrong.
Where does stuff like this come from?
##########
Easy: from hell.
Easy: from hell.
Because satan knows that “Christianity” neutered of Holy Spirit’s active and dramatic working is not that much of a threat to satan’s kingdom.
So satan spends a LOT of time and resources attacking and polluting Pentecostal/Charismatic expressions of Christianity.
Not deceived at all.
I’ve exhorted Assembly of God Presbyters of their outrages . . . and seen the Lord take them out of this life within a year as I warned.
I’ve exhorted internationally known Pentecostal/Charismatic leaders of various ranks and types very sternly for decades. The Lord has frequently backed my warnings and exhortations up.
I’ve likely seen more junk in such circles than you have.
I’VE ALSO SEEN THE FAR GREATER FRUIT FOR THE KINGDOM OF GOD.
God will likely be asking you about your rock throwing and judgments in such matters.
I applaud you for standing up against heresies.
That said, the Bible clearly states that we are to reject heretics after the second admonition. Our duty is to follow God’s word, not engage in moral relativism and pragmatism. Again, God might sometimes use these evil “ministries” for good, but that does not mean we are to violate His word by supporting them.
The Apostle Paul commands us not to even eat with a covetous person, who claims to be a Christian.
“11 But now I have written to you not to keep company with anyone named a brother, who is sexually immoral, or covetous, or an idolater, or a reviler, or a drunkard, or an extortioner—not even to eat with such a person.
12 For what have I to do with judging those also who are outside? Do you not judge those who are inside? 13 But those who are outside God judges. Therefore “put away from yourselves the evil person.” - 1 Corinthians 5:11-13
Notice, he lists “covetous” right after “sexually immoral”. If a Christian is going to support a “Prosperity Gospel” charlatans, he might as well support Gene Robinson or other openly homosexual “bishops” and “pastors”. Doing either is forbidden by Scripture.
You would do well to remember that.
Swaggart was told by the AoG to get out of the ministry totally for 3? years and be in therapy for that time.
He refused.
He was kicked out.
I doubt seriously that Pentecostals/Charismatics are THAT much more immoral etc. than the rest of the denominations.
IF they are any percentage points it would be because satan knows that Holy Spirit’s actively manifested doings and power does his kingdom more damage so he attacks such ministries and ministers more heavily.
All are human. All sin. All are in error to some degree.
All.
“you are horribly deceived”
You don’t know how right you are. He follows a false prophet that posts ignorant nonsense here on a regular basis, and quite obviously, has been deceived by a false gospel.
I don't know about Hayford, but many others have. Unfortunately they aren't/weren't "popular" enough so their comments don't get much play. I've personally heard leaders in the Assemblies of God and Church of God (TN) denominations denounce the lunacy in televangelism that's masked as Pentecostal Christianity.
What I find ironic about the "prosperity gospel" movement is that Pentecostalism in the U.S. actually began among the poor and lower-middle class - folks who didn't have these notions that God would make them rich.
I agree that Pentecostals are not worse than other denominations. In fact, in many ways, traditional, Bible centered, Pentecostals offer some of the best of modern Christianity.
That said, I believe Pentecostal leadership, has, in general, not done nearly enough to expose and oppose these gross heretics within the movement, and in many cases has supported them. The same is true of those promoting bizarre “manifestations of the Spirit”, like barking like dogs, clukcing like chickens, gyrating uncontrollably, “holy laughter”, etc.
Quite true: the Pentecostal church in America is dwarfed by the size of the Pentecostal church in South America, Africa and Asia.
I do believe that the biggest church in the world, in Seoul, South Korea, with a congregation around 50,000, is Pentecostal.
If memory serves, Oral Roberts started out in the Pentacostal Holiness denomination but was asked to leave once he became “too controversial.” At that point he joined the Methodists who were pretty open about having him.
I am a Baptist who has spent most of his life in Georgia and central Florida and I can attest that snake handling churches do exist in the Appalachian region. I recall a couple of churches near Cartersville, GA where some serious bites ocurred a few years ago. There was also a church not far from here in Florida - I believe it was in Lakeland - where a revival took place in the ‘80’s where people who said they were touched by the Spirit would engage in what they called “divine laughter.” They claimed that it helped to heal them, body and soul.
Dog barking? I don’t know of any actual incidences of that. It is one of those things that non-Pentacostals like to talk about. Maybe there is truth behind it, maybe not.
I come at this from a different perspective based on personal experience.
I got saved back in 1987 at a street ministry. The guy who ran it went to a full-on Charismatic church. The pastor of that church and his wife were both graduates of Pop Hagin’s ‘Rhema Bible College’. I spent the first 5 years of my Christian life at that church, and I heard the constant drumbeat of “health and wealth”. Praying in tongues was commonplace and presented as the ONLY evidence of baptism of the Holy Spirit. Because I never got wealthy, I began to wonder if my salvation was genuine. I was assured that things would get better and they encouraged me to “pray hard” for God’s blessings.
(As a side note, after I left the place, I found out more than I wanted to about that church. The associate pastor’s wife died of a brain tumor about a year after I left. Inside 4 months, he’d married a woman who used to play flute on the worship team who had left the church not long before. There was suspicion that he’d been seeing her on the side as his wife got worse and worse. Not long after that, the youth pastor up and left his wife of 14 years, leaving her with 2 kids, and took up with a younger woman. He then left the church and started his own church. Meh.)
During the last year of my time there, I felt more and more like I didn’t belong there. In May or June of 1991, God showed me where He wanted me to go through a series of unmistakable “signposts” (for lack of a better term). Basically, He made certain things happen that opened my eyes as to where He wanted me, which was a large Foursquare church in the same city. They were more “Charismatic Lite”...they believed in the baptism of the Holy Spirit, but never, ever said that speaking in tongues was the only evidence of it. They never, ever preached a “health and wealth” gospel, but always gave a very balanced view of the Bible. I learned more about God and His Word in 2 years there than I did my entire time at the Charismatic church. I stayed at that church for 7 years until they grew so large that they ‘calved off’ a fully-sanctioned ‘daughter church’ in the south part of town. I was led to join that church and stayed with them through their first year and a half. They’re still going strong.
At this point in time, I am technically a Southern Baptist. When my wife and I moved over to western Washington (for economic reasons), we went to the Southern Baptist church her parents went to. Even after they moved, we stuck around, and have been there since 1999. Because my wife and I met at the Foursquare church, neither one of us is freaked out by speaking in tongues or any of the beliefs of charismatic people. I happen to believe that God has so many different denominations out there because He created everyone different. Some people are quiet in their faith, so He made “quiet” denominations where they could hear from Him best. And for the more “lively”, He has places for them to worship as well. I also believe He has us in different churches for different times and situations in our lives. God is so big and so magnificent, He can work in a myriad of ways, using a whole lot of different people and styles to get His Word across.
As for the question of Mr. Roberts...did I agree with everything he said? No. Did he get the word out that Jesus Christ is the Way, the Truth, and the Life? Yes, he did. I also believe he is in the arms of his Savior right now, who is telling him “Well done, thou good and faithful servant. Enter into the the joy of your Lord”. Not everyone will agree with me, but that’s their belief.
In my opinion, this represents the vast majority of Pentecostal congregations. Unfortunately they don't get much attention because they're not doing outlandish, nutty things...They're just busy doing what every other Bible-believing church is doing - preaching, teaching, evangelizing, ministering to the needy, etc.
Thanks for your personal attack.
Thanks.
Used to be an assumption that Pentecostalism was only a religion of the poor, low IQ, and uneducated etc.
My dissertation research literature review documented research which proved that was quite untrue on all counts.
I wouldn’t want to speak for all strange bewhaviors.
However, the laughter, is, to me, obviously from The Lord.
We have laughter routinely in our congregation. Usually, the more the
MANIFEST PRESENCE OF THE LORD IS THERE, the more likely it is . . . depending. SOME types of the MANIFEST PRESENCE OF THE LORD LEAVE EVERYONE FEELING AWED AND
WOE IS ME A MAN OF UNCLEAN LIPS . . . WITH UTTER SILENCE BEING THE NORM.
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