Posted on 07/23/2009 6:03:11 AM PDT by stfassisi
I can, you are right, and I should. But, beyond that, if I ask you to pray for me, it doesn’t mean I can’t pray myself. But there may be times I really should ask you to pray for me, too.
By the way, in Matthew 17 / Mark 9 / Luke 9, were Moses and Elijah dead, or living?
Do not make friends with a hot-tempered man
do not associate with one easily angered
or you may learn his ways
and get yourself ensnared.-- Proverbs 22:24-25
James 1: “19 Know this, my beloved brothers: let every person be quick to hear, slow to speak, slow to anger; 20for the anger of man does not produce the righteousness of God.”
Is the link you posted your blogspot,dear friend?
If so,this is the problem when someone reads the Bible through the lens of one’s own opinion and thinks the Holy Spirit is guiding them,yet there is very little unity between you and the thousands of protestant communities who all claim led by the Holy Spirit.
The following is from Martin Luther once he realized the mess caused by solo scripture...
“This one will not hear of Baptism, and that one denies the sacrament, another puts a world between this and the last day: some teach that Christ is not God, some say this, some say that: there are as many sects and creeds as there are heads. No yokel is so rude but when he has dreams and fancies, he thinks himself inspired by the Holy Ghost and must be a prophet” De Wette III, 61. quoted in O’Hare, THE FACTS ABOUT LUTHER, 208.
“Noblemen, townsmen, peasants, all classes understand the Evangelium better than I or St. Paul; they are now wise and think themselves more learned than all the ministers.” Walch XIV, 1360. quoted in O’Hare, Ibid, 209.
“We concede — as we must — that so much of what they [the Catholic Church] say is true: that the papacy has God’s word and the office of the apostles, and that we have received Holy Scriptures, Baptism, the Sacrament, and the pulpit from them. What would we know of these if it were not for them?” Sermon on the gospel of St. John, chaps. 14 - 16 (1537), in vol. 24 of LUTHER’S WORKS, St. Louis, Mo.: Concordia, 1961, 304.
Luther ended up realizing that through no concrete teaching without any regard to historical Christianity would end up dividing Christianity into many heresies like never seen before. Unfortunately he was powerless to stop it because the monster John calvin was luther on steroids,thus paving the way for all personal beliefs to divide themselves over and over from each other in a never ending abyss of protestantism that resembles Buddhism that claims many truths even though they disagree with each other,but it’s OK because of the warm fuzzy enlightened feeling they have in their belly that they think is the Holy Spirit.
The other problem you have is not reading Scripture through typology of the Old Testament being fulfilled in the New Testament and matching it with historical Christian teaching and writings.
Here is an example on Christ’s Divinity that you will probably agree with(from scripturecatholic)
Old and New Testament Parallels of God the Father and God the Son
odus 3:14 - God says “I AM who I AM” - John 8:58 - Jesus says “Before Abraham was, I AM” in reference to Himself.
Deut. 4:2; 12:32 - the Lord God commands that we not add or take away from His word - Rev. 22:18-19 - Jesus so commands us not to add or take away from His word.
Deut. 32:39; 1 Sam. 2:6 - the Lord kills and makes alive again and raises up - John 5:21 - the Son raises and gives life.
Deut. 32:39 - neither is there any that can deliver out of God’s hand - John 10:28 - nor shall any pluck out of Jesus’ hand.
Deut. 32:43 - rejoice, ye heavens, with Him, and let all the angels of God worship Him - Heb. 1:6 - the “Him” is Jesus the Son.
2 Sam. 22:3 - God is the horn of salvation - Luke 1:68-69 - Jesus is the horn of salvation.
Psalm 19:7 - the law of the Lord is perfect - Gal. 6:2 - fulfill the law of Christ.
Psalm 24:10 - the Lord is the King of glory - 1 Cor. 2:8 - Jesus is the Lord of glory.
Psalm 45:7 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. God calls someone else God. This someone else is His eternally begotten Son - Heb. 1:9 - Therefore God, your God, has anointed you. cf. Heb. 1:8, 10.
Psalm 62:12 - the Lord God renders to each according to his work - Matt. 16:27; Rev. 22:12 - Jesus so renders to each according to his work.
Psalm 71:5 - the Lord God is our hope - 1 Tim. 1:1 - the Lord Jesus Christ who is our hope.
Psalm 89:27 – I will make him the first-born, the highest (“elyon” which refers to God) of the kings of the earth - John 18:36-27 – Jesus is this first-born king.
Psalm 97:9 - the Lord God is above all - John 3:31 - Jesus is above all.
Psalms 110:1 - the Lord (Yahweh) said to my Lord - Jesus = Yhwh - Acts 2:34-36 - God has made Jesus both Lord and Christ.
Psalm 148:1-2 - the angels worship the Lord God - Heb. 1:6 - the angels worship Jesus. Only God is worshiped.
Prov. 3:12 - who the Lord loves He corrects - Rev. 3:19 - who Jesus loves He corrects.
Isaiah 7:14 - a virgin will bear a Son named Emmanuel which means “God is with us” - Matt. 1:23 - this Son is Jesus Christ, God in the flesh.
Isaiah 9:6 - the child to be born shall be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Isaiah 25:8 - God swallows up death in victory - 2 Tim. 1:10 - Jesus abolishes death and brings life and immortality.
Isaiah 40:8 - the Word of God shall stand forever - Matt. 24:35 - the Words of Jesus shall not pass away.
Isaiah 42:8 - God gives His glory to no other - John 17:5; Heb. 1:3 - yet Jesus has the same glory as the Father.
Isaiah 43:14 - the Lord God is redeemer - Titus 2:14 - Jesus is the redeemer.
Isaiah 44:6 - the Lord God is the first and the last - Rev. 1:17; 2:8; 22:13 - Jesus is the first and the last.
Isaiah 45:19 - I, the Lord God, did not speak in secret - John 18:20 - Jesus said “I have said nothing secretly.”
Isaiah 45:23 - to God, every knee shall bow and every tongue swear. Phil. 2:10-11 - at Jesus’ name every knee should bow and tongue confess.
Isaiah 48:17 - God is the Holy One - Acts 3:14 - Jesus is the Holy One.
Isaiah 60:19 - God is everlasting light - Revelation 21:23 - Jesus the Lamb is eternal light.
Jer. 17:10 - the Lord searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds - Rev. 2:23 - Jesus searches the hearts and repays us according to our deeds.
Ezek. 1:26-28; Daniel 7:9 - God’s glorious appearance - Rev. 1:13-16 - Jesus’ glorious appearance.
Ezek. 34:11-31 - God the Father is the shepherd of the flock - John 10:7-29 - Jesus is the shepherd of the flock.
Ezek. 34:16 - God seeks to save that which was lost - Luke 19:10 - Jesus seeks to save that which was lost.
Ezek. 34:17 - God judges between cattle, rams and goats - Matt. 25:32 - Jesus judges and separates the goats from the sheep.
Ezek. 43:2 - God’s voice was like a noise of many waters - Rev. 1:15 - Jesus’ voice was like the sound of many waters.
Dan. 2:47 - the Lord is the God of gods and the Lord of Lords - Rev. 17:14 - Jesus the Lamb is the Lord of Lords.
Next we can look at the writings of the Early Church Fathers to realize just how concrete the early Church believed in Christ’s Divinity
Here are some writings...
Our teacher of these things is Jesus Christ, who also was born for this purpose, and was crucified under Pontius Pilate, procurator of Judea, in the times of Tiberius Caesar; and that we reasonably worship Him, having learned that He is the Son of the true God Himself, and holding Him in the second place, and the prophetic Spirit in the third, we will prove.” Justin Martyr, First Apology, 13 (A.D. 155).
“[T]he ever-truthful God, hast fore-ordained, hast revealed beforehand to me, and now hast fulfilled. Wherefore also I praise Thee for all things, I bless Thee, I glorify Thee, along with the everlasting and heavenly Jesus Christ, Thy beloved Son, with whom, to Thee, and the Holy Ghost, be glory both now and to all coming ages. Amen.” Martyrdom of Polycarp 14 (A.D. 157).
“For God did not stand in need of these [beings], in order to the accomplishing of what He had Himself determined with Himself beforehand should be done, as if He did not possess His own hands. For with Him were always present the Word and Wisdom, the Son and the Spirit, by whom and in whom, freely and spontaneously, He made all things, to whom also He speaks, saying, ‘Let Us make man after Our image and likeness;’ He taking from Himself the substance of the creatures [formed], and the pattern of things made, and the type of all the adornments in the world.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4,20:1 (A.D. 180).
“And first, they taught us with one consent that God made all things out of nothing; for nothing was coequal with God: but He being His own place, and wanting nothing, and existing before the ages, willed to make man by whom He might be known; for him, therefore, He prepared the world. For he that is created is also needy; but he that is uncreated stands in need of nothing. God, then, having His own Word internal within His own bowels, begat Him, emitting Him along with His own wisdom before all things. He had this Word as a helper in the things that were created by Him, and by Him He made all things. He is called governing principle’ (arche), because He rules, and is Lord of all things fashioned by Him. He, then, being Spirit of God, and governing principle, and wisdom, and power of the highest, came down upon the prophets, and through them spoke of the creation of the world and of all other things. For the prophets were not when the world came into existence, but the wisdom of God which was in Him, and His holy Word which was always present with Him. Wherefore He speaks thus by the prophet Solomon: When He prepared the heavens I was there, and when He appointed the foundations of the earth I was by Him as one brought up with Him.’ And Moses, who lived many years before Solomon, or, rather, the Word of God by him as by an instrument, says, In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.’” Theophilus of Antioch, To Autolycus, II:10 (c. A.D. 181).
Hopefully you get the picture and it makes sense that typology and the early writings along with Catholic Dogma makes perfect sense in united teachings that are dogmatic and can never change?
Now lets apply the same thing to Our Blessed Mother through typology and Early Christian writings...
From a previous post of mine...
Typology of Old Testament Ark “verses” New Testament Mary who is the “Immaculate” Ark of the NEW COVENANT
A cloud of glory covered the Tabernacle and Ark (Exodus 40:34-35; Numbers 9:15) = Type is
“And the angel said to her: “The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you’” (Luke 1:35)
Ark spent three months in the house of Obededom the Gittite (2 Samuel 6:11) = Type is
Mary spent three months in the house of Zechariah and Elizabeth (Luke 1:26, 40)
King David asked “How can the ark of the Lord come to me?” (2 Samuel 6:9) = Type is
Elizabeth asked Mary, “Why is this granted to me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?” (Luke 1:43)
David Leaped and danced before the Lord when the Ark arrived in Jerusalem (2 Samuel 6:14 - 16) = Type is
John the Baptist leaped for joy in Elizabeth’s womb when Mary arrived (Luke 1:44)
Even the Early Christians saw this.
Some examples....
Athanasius of Alexandria (c. 296–373) was the main defender of the deity of Christ against the second-century heretics. He wrote: “O noble Virgin, truly you are greater than any other greatness. For who is your equal in greatness, O dwelling place of God the Word? To whom among all creatures shall I compare you, O Virgin? You are greater than them all O [Ark of the] Covenant, clothed with purity instead of gold! You are the ark in which is found the golden vessel containing the true manna, that is, the flesh in which divinity resides” (Homily of the Papyrus of Turin).
Gregory the Wonder Worker (c. 213–c. 270) wrote: “Let us chant the melody that has been taught us by the inspired harp of David, and say, ‘Arise, O Lord, into thy rest; thou, and the ark of thy sanctuary.’ For the Holy Virgin is in truth an ark, wrought with gold both within and without, that has received the whole treasury of the sanctuary” (Homily on the Annunciation to the Holy Virgin Mary).
Mary is the Daughter of Zion .
The important thing point out is that in the OT (esp. Isiah, Zephaniah, Zechariah, etc..) there are Messianic prophecies known as the Daughter Zion prophecies which tend to have a similar form. They begin with something like, “rejoice, O Daughter of Zion, for the Lord your God is in your midst..” and continue on with Messianic prophecy. The form of Gabriel’s Annuniciation to Mary matches the form of the Daughter Zion prophecies. This indicates on the one hand that these prophesies are fulfilled with the words of Gabriel which announce the Messianic expectation as being fulfilled at that time.
The prophets words were a foreshadowing of the Annuniciation. Gabriel called Mary Kecharitomene, which I believe captures the essence of Daughter of Zion and points beyond it. Basically Mary is being presented in Luke I & II as representing not just the perfect embodiment of the virtues of what it means to be Israel, she is presented as a certain personification of Israel. She stands in as Israel proper, and the language used throughout the narrative suggests the concept of “corporate personality” which is part of Hebrew thought. There are allusions and types in Luke I & II which further support this (themes and structure in the Magnificat, allusions to Abraham to which this concept of corporate personality applies, Simeon, Judith, etc..). Also, this understanding of what Luke I & II presents about Our Lady is an interpretive key to understanding certain passages in a deeper way (for example Simeon’s prophecy).
It also ties in with themes in John’s writings and sheds light upon them. The thematic parallels between John-Rev & Luke-Acts are many so it’s no surprise that this aspect of Luke I & II would mesh well with John.
The Importance of Kecharitomene
Kecharitomene (Luke 1:28), is Mary,s purpose ,it is Her essence and being in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the “woman” of the Father. As the spouse of the Holy Spirit (Matthew 1:20), in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the “woman” of the Holy Spirit. As the mother of the Son (Luke 1:31), in the divine supernatural order, the virgin from Nazareth is the ‘woman’ of the Son. The virgin from Nazareth, clearly then, is “woman” to all the three divine Persons who is GOD. She is aptly the ‘blessed among women’ (Luke 1:42). The Blessed Virgin Mary is the “woman” of GOD. The Son of Man never called her “mother”, not even once while He interacted with humans, because it will not be in keeping with His divinity or with the Oneness and Indivisibility of the Holy Trinity. The virgin from Nazareth is not the mother of the Holy Spirit and she, obviously, is not the mother of the Father
Luke 1:28 Uses the word “Kecharitomene: to describe Mary,s function,essence and being
The original Greek was kecharitomene, the perfect passive participle of charis, grace. St. Jerome translated it into Latin as gratia plena, “full of grace.” In Greek the perfect stem denotes a completed action with a permanent result. Kecharitomene means completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace. The Protestant Revised Standard Version translates Lk 1:28 as “highly favored daughter.” This is no mere difference of opinion but a conscious effort to distort St. Luke’s original Greek text. Had Mary been no more than “highly favored,” she would have been indistinguishable from Sarah the wife of Abraham, Anna the mother of Samuel, or Elizabeth the mother of John the Baptist, all of whom were long childless and “highly favored” because God acceded to their pleas to bear children. But neither Sarah nor Anna is described as kecharitomene in the Septuagint, a translation by Jewish scholars of the Hebrew Scriptures for Greek-speaking Jews in Egypt. Nor does Luke use it to describe Elizabeth. Kecharitomene in this usage is reserved for Mary of Nazareth.
The word “kecharitomene” is a perfect passive participle of the verb “charitoo.”
Some have argued that this says nothing unique about Mary since Saint Stephen, just before he is martyred for the faith, is said to be full of grace in Acts 6:8. However a different word form is used to describe Saint Stephen. In the Greek the conjugated form of “charitoo” that is used to describe him is “charitos” not “kecharitomene” that is used in reference to Mary.
Saint Luke does not use Mary as her name in Luke 1:28 He Changes it to “Kecharitomene” this is a new name , and we all know that name changes in Scripture are significant - Abram (Hebrew “father”) to Abraham (”father of multitudes), Jacob to Israel, Saul to Paul, Simon to Peter, etc.
This describes her very essence and being.
Mary, is named “kecharitomene” - because she is full of grace-full of perfection
Mary was chosen to be the Mother of God, because she was perfect in obeying the will of God. She would not betray her divine husband for the sake of a man. The marriage between Joseph and Mary took place in the divine plan in order to protect the publicity of the holy virgin announced in the Holy Scriptures who would give birth to Emanuel, God with us (Isaiah 7:14)
Joseph was a chaste man, who respected Mary highly since he was given revelations about Mary and Jesus by the angel of God (Matthew 1:20), he accepted the special holy mission to help the promised Messiah and his mother.
Mary is the New Eve-More typology
Old Testament Eve- Verses New Testament Mary
Created without original sin, Gen 2:22-25 = Created without original sin, Luke 1:28,42
There was a virgin, Gen 2:22-25 = There is a virgin, Luke 1:27-34
There was a tree, Gen 2:16-17 = There was a cross made from a tree, Matt 27:31-35
There was a fallen angel, Gen 3:1-13 = There was a loyal angel, Luke 1:26-38
A satanic serpent tempted her, Gen 3:4-6 = A satanic dragon threatened her, Rev 12:4-6,13-17
There was pride, Gen 3:4-7 = There was humility, Luke 1:38
There was disobedience, Gen 3:4-7 = There was obedience, Luke 1:38
There was a fall, Gen 3:16-20 = There was redemption, John 19:34
Death came through Eve, Gen 3:17-19 = Life Himself came through Mary, John 10:28
She was mentioned in Genesis 3:2-22 = She was mentioned in Genesis 3:15
Could not approach the tree of life Gen 3:24 = Approached the “Tree of Life”, John 19:25
An angel kept her out of Eden, Gen 3:24 = An angel protected her, Rev 12:7-9
Prophecy of the coming of Christ, Gen 3:15 = The Incarnation of Christ, Luke 2:7
Firstborn was a man child, Gen 4:1 = Firstborn was a man child, Luke 2:7, Rev 12:5
Firstborn became a sinner, Gen 4:1-8 = Firstborn was the Savior, Luke 2:34
The mother of all the living, Gen 3:20 = The spiritual mother of all the living, John 19:27
The Early Christians saw this very clear...
“He became man by the Virgin, in order that the disobedience which proceeded from the serpent might receive its destruction in the same manner in which it derived its origin. For Eve, who was a virgin and undefiled, having conceived the word of the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy, when the angel Gabriel announced the good tidings to her that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her, and the power of the Highest would overshadow her: wherefore also the Holy Thing begotten of her is the Son of God; and she replied, ‘Be it unto me according to thy word.’ And by her has He been born, to whom we have proved so many Scriptures refer, and by whom God destroys both the serpent and those angels and men who are like him; but works deliverance from death to those who repent of their wickedness and believe upon Him.” Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 100 (A.D. 155)
“In accordance with this design, Mary the Virgin is found obedient, saying, ‘Behold the handmaid of the Lord; be it unto me according to thy word.’ But Eve was disobedient; for she did not obey when as yet she was a virgin. And even as she, having indeed a husband, Adam, but being nevertheless as yet a virgin (for in Paradise ‘they were both naked, and were not ashamed,’ inasmuch as they, having been created a short time previously, had no understanding of the procreation of children: for it was necessary that they should first come to adult age, and then multiply from that time onward), having become disobedient, was made the cause of death, both to herself and to the entire human race; so also did Mary, having a man betrothed [to her], and being nevertheless a virgin, by yielding obedience, become the cause of salvation, both to herself and the whole human race. And on this account does the law term a woman betrothed to a man, the wife of him who had betrothed her, although she was as yet a virgin; thus indicating the back-reference from Mary to Eve, because what is joined together could not otherwise be put asunder than by inversion of the process by which these bonds of union had arisen; s so that the former ties be cancelled by the latter, that the latter may set the former again at liberty Wherefore also Luke, commencing the genealogy with the Lord, carried it back to Adam, indicating that it was He who regenerated them into the Gospel of life, and not they Him. And thus also it was that the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. For what the virgin Eve had bound fast through unbelief, this did the virgin Mary set free through faith.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 3:22 (A.D. 180).
“For as Eve was seduced by the word of an angel to flee from God, having rebelled against His Word, so Mary by the word of an angel received the glad tidings that she would bear God by obeying his Word. The former was seduced to disobey God, but the latter was persuaded to obey God, so that the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. As the human race was subjected to death through [the act of] a virgin, so it was saved by a virgin.” Irenaeus, Against Heresies, V:19,1 (A.D. 180).
Mary was PRESERVED from all stain of original sin at her creation so that she would be a “New Creation”, the “New Eve”
Lastly,It is NOT fitting that the Mother of God should bring shame to Her divine son.Therefor.God preserved Mary from any personal sin,whether mortal or venial.Through the Grace of God,which was infused into her soul at the moment of her conception,at the very instant He created her soul and united it to her body. He did it in virtue of the merits of Christ.
No descendant of Adam receives the Grace of God except through the merits of Christ.The Mother of Christ was no exception to this law of Grace.Like every other human being who is descended of carnal generation from Adam,the blessed virgin Mary need to be redeemed by the blood of Christ,But wheras every other human being needs to be cleansed from the stain of original sin-which has contracted by way of carnal generation from Adam-the Virgin Mary did NOT need to be cleansed from original sin.Through the Grace of Christ she was preserved from the stain of sin.
Articles like this one sadden me because they demonstrate just how far the Church in the West has drifted from its patristic roots in the One Church. It is simply untrue that the post Great Schism innovation of the IC was in any fashion part of the consensus patrum or known to the early One Church. What apologists for the IC do is confuse, intentionally, the patristic doctrine of Panagia’s sinlessness and perpetual virginity with freedom from that other non-patristic notion, “Original Sin”. This piece is from a Roman Catholic source so I suppose we need to expect these arguments in support of Roman novelty. If the Pope ever does come back into communion with the other Patriarchs, an ecumenical council can deal it.
The discussion of the Assumption is a good one though this:
“Obviously, Our Lord considers this Dogma so important that, with the proclamation of the Bull Munificentissimus Deus in 1950, the members of His True Church are commanded to believe it.”
speaks volumes about the ecclesiological police state Rome runs. Othodoxy has believed in the Assumption of the Mosty Holy Theotokos for 1600 years at least...with no one threatening anathema if this otherwise pious belief is rejected. I know of no Orthodox Christian who doesn’t believe it, not one and we we do a hard fast for 15 days before the Feast of the Dormition of the Theotokos on August 15th.
Finally, I see the Co-Redemptrix evil has found its way into this piece. Its heresy, blatant heresy. There is only One Redeemer! There is no “Co-Redemptrix”. I am very, very pleased that this teaching will likely be discussed at the Pan Orthodox Council and it is anticipated that it will be condemned as a heresy and its proponents anathemized. As a practical matter, the anathemization will have no effect since there aren’t any Orthodox who teach this and obviously our hierarchs are in no position to effectively anathemize Rome’s. What it will do is show Rome clearly where the Patriarchates stand on this creeping cancer.
“”Finally, I see the Co-Redemptrix evil has found its way into this piece. Its heresy, blatant heresy.””
It’s obvious that you don’t understand this ,dear brother. Perhaps you should ask for forgiveness for calling this evil? I’m concerned for you for saying this and will pray a Rosary in your behalf.
From Fulton Sheen http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary-sword1.htm
It is very likely that this mystical darkness, which the Sword drove into Mary’s soul, gave rise to such heroic acts of love as to raise her to new Mount Tabors she never experienced before. Light can sometimes be so bright as to blind! Mary’s failure to understand the word that was spoken to her was caused less by the defect of light than by its excess. Human reason reaches a point where it cannot describe or explain what happens to the heart. Even human love in its most ecstatic moments is speechless. Reason can understand words, but it cannot understand the Word. The Gospel here tells us that what Mary did not understand was the Word that was spoken. How hard to understand the Word when it is broken into words! She did not understand, because the Word lifted her out of the one abyss of reason to the other unimaginable abyss of the Divine Mind. At such points, Divine Wisdom in its human expressions compels a confession of ignorance. It cannot tell its secret, as St. Paul would not tell his vision of the third Heaven. Words themselves were inadequate to express fully the meaning of the Word.
To prove that this darkness was unlike ignorance, the Gospel adds: “His Mother kept in her heart the memory of all this” (Lk 2:51). Her soul would keep the Word, her heart the words. He Who by His words seemed to disown her, now owns her, not only by keeping the honey of the message in the hive of her heart but also by going down to Nazareth to be subject to her. The Divine Sword is no longer using human instruments like Simeon and Herod to brandish it. Twelve years of age, He is old enough to use it Himself. In this dolor both His natures were fastening upon her to make her a co-Redemptrix under His causality: His human nature in the physical loss, His Divine nature in the Dark Night of her soul. In the Annunciation she asks a question of an Angel: “How shall this be, seeing I know not man?” Now she addresses the God-Man Himself, calling Him “Son” and asking Him to explain and to justify Himself for what He has done. Here was a supreme consciousness that she was the Mother of God. There is always a great familiarity with God whenever there is great sanctity, and that familiarity is greater in sorrow than in joy. Saints favored by revelation from Our Lord picture Him as saying that this dolor cost Him as much suffering as any other sorrow of His life: in this, as in all other cases, He ran the Sword into His Sacred Heart before thrusting it into her Immaculate Heart, that He Himself might know the sorrow first. The grief that Our Lord would feel on leaving His Mother after the three hours on the Cross was here felt in anticipation during the three days’ loss. Those who sin without having the faith never feel the anxiety of those who sin with the faith. To have God, then lose Him, was Mary’s edge of the sword; to be God, and hide from those who would never leave Him, was Our Lord’s edge of the sword. Both felt the effects of sin in different ways: she felt the darkness of losing God; He felt the darkness of being lost. If her sorrow was a hell, His was the agony of making it. The bitterness of death is in her soul; the sadness of inflicting it is in His!
As she became the Refuge of Sinners by knowing what it is to lose God and then find Him, so He became the Redeemer of sinners by knowing the deliberateness, the willfulness, the resoluteness of those who wound the ones they love! She felt the creature losing the Creator; He felt the Creator losing the creature. Mary lost Jesus only in mystical darkness of the soul, not in the moral blackness of an evil heart. Her loss was a veiling of His face, not a flight. But she does teach us that, when we lose God, we must not wait for Him to come back. We must go out in search of Him; and, to the joy of every sinner, she knows where He can be found!
“Perhaps you should ask for forgiveness for calling this evil?”
Oh not at all. In fact, I’m planning a party when the Council anathemizes the heresy.
“I’m concerned for you for saying this and will pray a Rosary in your behalf.”
Whatever your motivation, I never scorn the offer of a raosary said on my behalf and appreciate it. I just venerated the icon of the Most Holy Theotokos Glykophilousa hanging next to me in the icon corner and asked her to intercede with her Son that you might come to reject the heresy of the “Co-Redemptrix”.
And sfa, if you had the remotest understanding of Orthodoxy and where your own particular church’s basic Mariology came from, you wouldn’t have bothered posting the rest of the cant to an Orthodox Christian.
From St. John Chrysostom
A virgin [Eve] has cast us out from paradise; through a virgin [Mary] we have found eternal life.
{Expositio VII in Ps. XLIV (vol. 5, 171D; in Graef, ibid., p. 75}
In the Liturgy of the Catechumens, the people cry out:
By the intercession of the Theotokos, Saviour, save us.” Before distributing Holy Communion, the priest prays: “May Christ, our true God (who rose from the dead), as a good, loving and merciful God, have mercy upon us and save us, through the intercession of his most pure and holy Mother.
Blessed St. John Chrysostom is asking Christ to save us through Mary ,dear brother.
If He answers this it is because of Her intercession that you are redeemed. Mary is the Universal Mother of all that has been redeemed
More Fulton Sheen
Through the centuries the Church Fathers have said that Our Lord keeps for Himself half His regency, which is the Kingdom of Justice, but the other half He gives away to His Mother, and this is the Kingdom of Mercy. At the Marriage Feast of Cana, Our Lord said that the hour of His Passion was not yet at hand -— the hour when Justice would be fulfilled. But His Blessed Mother begged Him not to wait, but to be merciful to those who were in need, and to supply their wants by changing water into wine. Three years later, when not the water was changed into wine, but the wine into blood, He fulfilled all Justice, but surrendered half His Kingdom by giving to us that which no one else could give, namely, His Mother: “Behold thy Mother.” Whatever mothers do for sons, that His Mother would do, and more.
Throughout all history the Blessed Mother has been the link between two contraries: the eternal punishment of Hell for sinners and the universal unlimited Redemption of Her Divine Son. These extremes cannot be reconciled except by mercy. Not that Mary pardons -— for she cannot -— but she intercedes as a mother does in the face of the justice of the father. Without Justice, mercy would be indifference to wrong: without mercy, Justice would be vindictive. Mothers obtain pardon and forgiveness for their sons without ever giving them the feeling of “being let off.” Justice makes the wrongdoer see the injustice in the violation of a law; mercy makes him see it in the sufferings and misery he caused those who love him deeply.
An evil man who is let off will probably commit the same sin again, but there is no son saved from punishment by his mother's tears who did not resolve never to sin again. Thus, mercy in a mother is never separated from a sense of justice. The blow may not fall, but the effect is the same as if it had.
What mysterious power is it that a mother has over a son that, when he confesses his guilt, she strives to minimize it, even when it shocks her heart at the perversity of the revelation? The impure are rarely tolerant of the pure, but only the pure can understand the impure. The more saintly the soul of a confessor, the less he dwells on the gravity of the offense, and the more on the love of the offender. Goodness always lifts the burden of conscience, and it never throws a stone to add to its weight. There are many sheaves in the field which the priests and sisters and the faithful are unable to gather in. It is Mary's role to follow these reapers to gather the sinners in. As Nathaniel Hawthorne said: “I have always envied the Catholics that sweet, sacred, Virgin Mother who stands between them and the Diety, intercepting somewhat His awful splendor, but permitting His love to stream on the worshipper more intelligibly to human comprehension through the medium of a woman's tenderness.”
Mary will assist us if we but call upon her. There is not a single unhappy soul or sinner in the world who calls upon Mary who is left without mercy. Anyone who invokes her will have the wounds of his soul healed. Sin is a crime of lèse-majesté; but the Blessed Mother is the refuge. St. Anselm said that she “was made the Mother of God more for sinners than for the just” -— which could hardly be doubted, since Our Lord Himself said that He came not to save the just, but to call sinners to repent.
St. Ephrem calls the Blessed Mother the “charter of freedom from sin,” and even dubs her the protectress of those who are on their way to damnation: Patroncinatrix damnatorum. St. Augustine said of her: “What all the other Saints can do with your help, you alone can do without them.”
There are some sorrows in life which are peculiar to a woman and which a man cannot understand. That is why, as there was an Adam and an Eve in the fall, there had to be a new Adam and a new Eve in redemption. Fittingly, therefore, is a Woman summoned to stand at the foot of the Cross where Our Lord redeemed us from our sins. He also redeemed her. Our Lord could feel all agonies mentally, but the agonies and griefs that only woman can feel, Mary could suffer in union with Him. One of these is the shame of the unmarried mother. Not of course that Mary was that, for she was espoused to Joseph; but until the Angel told Joseph that she conceived by the Holy Spirit, Mary had to share the bleeding heart of all her sisters who bear within themselves a child born out of wedlock. Mothers whose sons are called to war call on Mary, who also had a Son summoned to the war -— against the principalities and powers of evil. She even went onto the battlefield with her Son and received a soul-wound.
Mothers who have children born with an affliction, crippled in body, broken in mind, mute in speech, or who have lengthening shadows of impending death or disaster hanging over them and their children, can take their worries to Mary who lived under an incoming tide of sorrow. She knows what it is to have a child who will be a daily cross. At His Birth, Magi brought myrrh for His burial signifying that He was destined for death. When He was forty days old, the aged Simeon told her that her Son would be a sign to be contradicted, which meant crucifixion, and that the lance that pierced His Heart would pierce her own soul!
There is now no excuse. There are some who say they would be “hypocrites” if they came to God. They would be hypocrites, if they said they were prepared to be clean when they intended to go on being dirty. But they would not be hypocrites if they admitted they were sinful, and really wanted to be children of God.
Those whose spirituality is harsh, whose Christianity is cold, who know Christ but who are severe in judgment, with a touch of bigotry and hatred of fellowman, should realize that their condition comes from a lack of Mary's Motherhood. As, in the physical order, a man who grows up without the loving attention of a mother misses something that makes for gentleness and sweetness of character, so in the spiritual order, those who grow up in Christianity without Mary lack a joy and happiness that come to those only who know no mother. Orphans of the Spirit! Your Mother lives!
Throughout the Christian centuries those who were burdened with guilt and afraid to approach God, or who had not come to the Divinity of Christ, or who, having come, were so stricken with shame that they fell back into sadness, have had recourse to the Blessed Mother to lift them out of the abyss. Typical of this spirit are two modern writers. W. T. Titterton, the poet and essayist, on the occasion of Shaw's death wrote: “Shaw was great friends with a Reverend Mother who prayed daily for his conversion. Once he confessed to her his difficulty: he could not believe in the Divinity of Christ. ‘But,’ he said, patting her shoulder, ‘I think His Mother will see me through.’ “ Shaw put his finger on the sublime truth that those who are not yet ready to accept Christ as the mediator between God and man will come to that truth through Mary, who will act as the mediatrix between widowed souls and Christ, until they finally come to His embrace.
Marcel Proust says that when he was a young man he went to his mother and recollected many of the evil things which he had done in his ignorance and passion, and which his own mother could not understand, but to which she listened without understanding. He said that somehow or other she lessened their importance with a gentleness and compassion and lifted the weight of his conscience. But how can Mary know what the un-Christed suffer, or sympathize with the bleeding soul-wounds of the sinners? As the pure lily rests immaculate on a foul pond, so Mary came to know what sin is in a moment which matched, in her love’s capacity as a creature, what Our Lord felt on the Cross.
What is sin? Sin is separation from God and an alienation from love. But Mary lost God, too! She lost him not morally but physically, during those seemingly endless three days when Her Divine Son was only twelve years of age. Searching, questioning, knocking from door to door, pleading and begging, Mary came to know something of the despairing emptiness of those who have not yet found Christ. This was the moment of her widowhood of the soul, when Mary came to know how every sinner feels -— not because she sinned, but because she felt the effect of sin, namely, the loss of God and the loneliness of the soul. To every soul who is lost, she can still truly address the same words: “Son, we have sought thee sorrowing.”
We have no record of it in the Gospels, but I have always believed that Judas, both on the way to betray Our Lord and after the betrayal, going with a halter over his arm to hang himself on an aspen tree, deliberately went out of his way to avoid contact with the Mother of Jesus. Probably no one in the history of the world would Our Blessed Mother more willingly have pardoned than Judas, though he did send her Son to the Cross. When Our Lord gave us half His Kingdom in His Mother, He made it almost impossible for any soul to go to Hell who ever pleads to her to intercede to her Divine Son. If Judas is in Hell, it is because he deliberately turned his back on Mary when he went out to hang himself. If he is not in Hell, it is because in that split second, as he looked from his hill to the Hill of Calvary, he saw there the Mother with her Divine Son and died with this prayer on his lips: “Mother of sinners, pray for me!”
Our Blessed Mother shows mercy to all souls because she has a right to do so. She accepted Motherhood not as a personal title, but as the representative of all humanity. Her consent is, to the new order of grace, what the consent of Eve was to the fallen humanity. Therefore, she had some claim on the redemptive merits of her Son. What is more, her Divine Son affirmed it, for the last act of Our Lord on earth to which He visibly demanded our adherence was his plea to take His Mother as our Mother: “Behold thy Mother.” A child may forget a mother,SMALL ICON but a mother never forgets a child. She is not only the Mother of Jesus, she is also the Mother of all whom He redeemed. “Shall a woman forget the child of her womb?” But beyond all sweet remembrance is the consoling human fact that a mother embraces and fondles that child who falls and hurts himself most often.
With St. Bernard the Church has repeated the prayer to Mary as the Queen of Mercy: “Remember, O Most Gracious Virgin Mary, that never anyone who had recourse to thy protection, implored thy help or sought thy intercession, was left unaided.” As Christ intercedes for us at the throne of His Father, so Mary intercedes for us to her Divine Son. But this role of mercy she cannot fulfill unless there are those who are miserable.
In her Revelations, St. Brigit quotes the Blessed Mother as saying: “The people of earth have need of a triple mercy: sorrow for their sins, penance to atone for them, and strength to do good.” And Mary promised these mercies to all who would call upon her. As the Son shows the Father the Wounds He received in saving man in the Battle of Calvary, so Mary shows the body pierced with seven swords in the same Siege against Sin. No sinner in the world is beyond the hope of redemption; no one is so cursed that he cannot obtain pardon if he but calls on Mary. It is necessary to be in the state of sanctifying grace to be saved, but it is not necessary to be in the state of grace to call on Mary. As she was the representative of sinful humanity who gave consent to the Redemption, so she is still the representative of those who are not yet in the state of friendship with God. It is easy for the brothers of Christ to call on the Father, but it is not easy for the strangers and the enemies. This role Mary plays. She is not only the Mother of those who are in the state of grace, but the Queen of those who are not. The true name of Satan is “Without Mercy” (Osee 1:6, 8), one whose nature cannot ask for pardon. He first tries to convince a soul that evil is not evil; then, when evil is done, he tries to convince it that there is no hope. ST. GEMMA SMALL GIFThus does presumption beget despair. Satan refuses the humiliation of pardon both for himself and for others, but Mary asks pardon even for those who, as agents of Satan, would recrucify Her Son. Her name is the antithesis of Satan: “One who has received Mercy” (Osee 2:1), and therefore one who dispenses it.
St. Gamma Galgani, of modem times, one day was interceding with Our Lord for the soul of a certain sinner. As Gamma pleaded for mercy, the Saviour recounted one by one his frightful and abnormal sins. After the Saviour had refused three times, St. Gamma Galgani said: “Then I shall ask your Mother.” Our Lord answered: “In that case, I cannot refuse.” An hour later the sinner in question came to the confessor of the Saint and made his full confession.
Sweet girlhood without guile,
The extreme of God's creative energy;
Sunshiny Peak of human personality;
The world's sad aspirations’ one Success;
Bright Blush, that sav’st our shame from shamelessness; Chief Stone of stumbling; Sign built in the way
To set the foolish everywhere a-bray;
Hem of God's robe, which all who touch are heard;
To which the outside Many honour yield
With a reward and grace
Unguess’d by the unwash’d boor that hails Him to His face,
Spurning the safe, ingratiant courtesy
Of suing Him by thee:
Ora pro me!
” A virgin [Eve] has cast us out from paradise; through a virgin [Mary] we have found eternal life.
{Expositio VII in Ps. XLIV (vol. 5, 171D; in Graef, ibid., p. 75}”
Odd cite for support for the Co-Redemptrix heresy, sfa. +John Chrysostomos taught that she was NOT Panagia but in fact had sinned....
“In the Liturgy of the Catechumens, the people cry out:
By the intercession of the Theotokos, Saviour, save us.” Before distributing Holy Communion, the priest prays: “May Christ, our true God (who rose from the dead), as a good, loving and merciful God, have mercy upon us and save us, through the intercession of his most pure and holy Mother.”
Now, where have I heard that before??????????? /s Oh, right, every Sunday at the Divine Liturgy.
“Blessed St. John Chrysostom is asking Christ to save us through Mary ,dear brother.”
+John Chrysostomos wrote that? No...really? /s
That is not what +John has the priest praying for, sfa. The prayer is asking Christ to listen to the intercessions of His mother on our behalf and save us, not that we are saved by her act of intercession. To believe that is heresy. Only Christ saves us. We also ask that Christ save us through the intercessions of any of hundreds of named saints too. Will you also claim that they too are “Co-Redeemers”?
“”The prayer is asking Christ to listen to the intercessions of His mother on our behalf and save us, not that we are saved by her act of intercession. To believe that is heresy. Only Christ saves us. We also ask that Christ save us through the intercessions of any of hundreds of named saints too. Will you also claim that they too are “Co-Redeemers”?””
I still don’t think you’re understanding this properly,Kolo
Fr Roderic Mary explains this well....
The prefix co- only sometimes has a connotation of equal in English. If I say there are two co-captains then I imply equality. But, if I say there is a Pilot and Co-pilot in the cockpit of a plane then I am implying a hierarchical structure where the Pilot is clearly superior in both rights and responsibility as to what happens on the plane, so too with Coredeemer. We are not saying that Mary and Jesus are two Coredeemers but Jesus is the Redeemer and Mary is the Coredeemer. So even in English it is clear who is the superior and that there is no equality. In the more Latin languages it is all the more clear due to the lack of the connotation of equality.
Pope Benedict XV wrote: “To such extent did she [Mary] suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man’s salvation, and immolated Him — insofar as she could — in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ” (Pope Benedict XV, Inter Sodalicia, 1918 A.D.).
And Vatican II, Lumen Gentium states: “Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, associated herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim which was born of her.”
Mary is the New Eve and many of the eastern Fathers wrote about it. She shared with His sacrifice in her Mother’s Heart although she had a secondary active role to play in our redemption from sin without the physical nails and crowning of thorns etc... associated with the Crucifixion,Mary’s pain was of a mothers heart for her Divine son
Here is what fr maximilian mary posted here awhile back that really make sense of this
“Creatures participate in God’s Being in various ways (”in Him all things continue in being” Col. 1), yet they are not God or a pantheistic part of God. Creatures also participate in God’s Goodness in various ways, yet they are not Goodness Himself. Priests participate in the priesthood of Jesus Christ (and faithful by way of the common, royal priesthood of all the baptized), yet they themselves are not Jesus the great and only High Priest of the new covenant. So too with the mediation of the God-Man—we all can participate in various ways (mediators of grace through prayer, sacrifice, etc.) yet none of us is the One Mediator between God and man, Christ Jesus (cf. 1 Tim. 2:5). But Mary alone can participate in the one mediation of Christ as Mother, Theotokos, Panagia! It seems to me that for both East and West a deeper knowledge of the essential role of Mary Theotokos in our supernatural life here and now as Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate would do us all a lot of good.
For those who believe it would renew and strengthen their love for their Immaculate Mother; for those who misunderstand or deny her role it would clarify what exactly the Church believes (and doesn’t believe).”
“But, if I say there is a Pilot and Co-pilot in the cockpit of a plane then I am implying a hierarchical structure where the Pilot is clearly superior in both rights and responsibility as to what happens on the plane, so too with Coredeemer.”
Co-pilots often fly the plane. Panagia never redeems us.
“To such extent did she [Mary] suffer and almost die with her suffering and dying Son; to such extent did she surrender her maternal rights over her Son for man’s salvation, and immolated Him — insofar as she could — in order to appease the justice of God, that we may rightly say she redeemed the human race together with Christ”
That’s heresy.
““Thus the Blessed Virgin advanced in her pilgrimage of faith, and faithfully persevered in union with her Son unto the cross, where she stood, in keeping with the divine plan, enduring with her only begotten Son the intensity of his suffering, associated herself with his sacrifice in her mother’s heart, and lovingly consenting to the immolation of this victim which was born of her.””
That’s not heresy.
“Mary is the New Eve and many of the eastern Fathers wrote about it.”
Indeed. Why not leave it there, sfa? Why push the envelope into heresy? The Fathers have left us a rich and complete tradition of devotion to Panagia. Its enough for all of us.
“Mary alone can participate in the one mediation of Christ as Mother, Theotokos, Panagia!”
Indeed she can.
“It seems to me that for both East and West a deeper knowledge of the essential role of Mary Theotokos in our supernatural life here and now as Mediatrix, Coredemptrix and Advocate would do us all a lot of good.”
“The poison of heresy is not too dangerous when it is preached only from outside the Church. Many times more perilous is that poison which is gradually introduced into the organism in larger and larger doses by those who, in virtue of their position, should not be poisoners but spiritual physicians.” Met. Philaret
"Co-redemptrix" ping for later.
Forgive my density, but what is the IC?
Thanks. As always, even though we disagree on many things, it's fascinating to read the Orthodox position. Thanks.
“Forgive my density, but what is the IC?”
Sorry; the IC is the Latin Church docrine of the Immaculate Conception dogmatized by Pope Pius IX in 1854. Orthodoxy rejects the doctrine.
Thanks!
She participates as the Mother of all who are redeemed,Christ is the redeemer,Mary is involved in redemption
From Pope Benedict XVI
http://www.vatican.va/holy_father/benedict_xvi/apost_exhortations/documents/hf_ben-xvi_exh_20070222_sacramentum-caritatis_en.html
“Her immaculate conception is revealed precisely in her unconditional docility to God's word. Obedient faith in response to God's work shapes her life at every moment. A virgin attentive to God's word, she lives in complete harmony with his will; she treasures in her heart the words that come to her from God and, piecing them together like a mosaic, she learns to understand them more deeply (cf. Lk 2:19, 51); Mary is the great Believer who places herself confidently in God's hands, abandoning herself to his will. (102) This mystery deepens as she becomes completely involved in the redemptive mission “
“” Why not leave it there, sfa? Why push the envelope into heresy?””
It's not dogma,kolo, it's only being discussed because of the misconceptions of using “CO” -that does not make it a heresy
From Saint John of Damascus
“This name contains the whole mystery of the Incarnation.” Once Christ is diminished, humanized, naturalized, there is no longer any use for the term “Mother of God.” It implies a twofold generation of the Divine Word: one eternal in the bosom of the Father, the other temporal in the womb of Mary. Mary therefore did not bear a “mere man” but the “true God.” No new person came into the world when Mary opened the portals of the flesh, but the Eternal Son of God was made man. All that came into being was a new nature, or a human nature to a Person Who existed from all eternity. It was the Word, the Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, Who became flesh and dwelt amongst us. Theanthropos, or God-Man, and Theotokos, or Mother of God, go together and fall together.
They can deny it all they want, but their own words reveal their true beliefs and thereby condemn them. A creature carrying out the redemptive work of the Creator. Absolute blasphemy.
If they didn't deify Mary, they wouldn't erect statues to her and bow down before her and pray to her and, in violation of God's word and instruction, regard her as "Mediatrix and Dispensatrix of all grace."
Christians should realize that there is something in all men that truly desires to worship and adore the creature. It is ego. It is false piety. It is self-gratifying. And it is corrupt. All honor, glory, worship and obedience belong to the Triune God alone.
"...for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin to Christ. But I fear, lest by any means, as the serpent beguiled Eve through his subtilty, so your minds should be corrupted from the simplicity that is in Christ... For such are false apostles, deceitful workers, transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ. And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light. Therefore it is no great thing if his ministers also be transformed as the ministers of righteousness; whose end shall be according to their works." -- 2 Corinthians 11:2-3,13-15 "And such as do wickedly against the covenant shall he corrupt by flatteries: but the people that do know their God shall be strong, and do exploits." Daniel 11:32
“This mystery deepens as she becomes completely involved in the redemptive mission “
sfa, I am completely involved in the judicial system and its “mission”, the rule of law, but I am not a “Co-judge”. +BXVI is hardly endorsing the “Co-Redemptix” notion by this comment, which is good because it wouldn’t be at all helpful for any reunion prospects for the Pope to be called a heretic when the Co-Redemptrix gets anathemized by the Pan Orthodox Council. Its fair to say that the Apostles also became “completely involved” in the “redemptive mission”, but no one suggests that they, even as they suffered martyrdom, became “Co-Redeemers”.
“It’s not dogma,kolo, it’s only being discussed because of the misconceptions of using “CO” -that does not make it a heresy.”
So far it seems it must be a “misunderstanding” of the whole concept. Is this something that simply can’t be explained in English? If so, what other language can you use that does explain it? Latin and French are fine by me and Greek and Russian or Arabic will work for a number of us.
” From Saint John of Damascus
“This name contains the whole mystery of the Incarnation.””
The name +John of Damascus is referring to is Theotokos, sfa, not “Co-Redemptrix”! The rest of what you have posted is from Bishop Sheen, not +John of Damascus and it is discussing the meaning and importance of the word Theotokos (which I assure you and all who are lurking does NOT mean Co-Redemptrix) in Christology and the battles against heretics in the 5th-6th centuries. It is disingenuous at best and mendacious at worst for you to imply that the Bishop was discussing and somehow endorsing the “Co-Redemptrix” heresy!
Thanks for pinging me to this. Heresy.
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