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Locked on 07/22/2009 7:38:29 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior. |
Posted on 07/20/2009 9:32:05 PM PDT by bdeaner
Both passages have to do with forgiveness, since one who remains angry has not forgiven.
In these parables, there is no discussion of the Master FORGIVING the unrepentant wrongdoer, since in neither case does he repent until he has no choice - as we both agree, you cannot repent after death.
Here’s the point - ALL of us get angry, and that is the same evil that murder is. ALL of us have held grudges, and been angry. I’ve had folks that it took me YEARS to forgive, in spite of my best efforts to do so - yet any reminder of what they had done would tie my stomach in knots.
ALL of us are sinners! ALL of us need forgiveness! NONE of us can master the evil within us, no matter how hard we try - not even the Pharisees, who tried very hard.
We all need a saviour. We all need to be born again.
And once we are, we are forgiven. For man judges actions, but God knows and judges the heart.
And where do you get the idea that this is happening in heaven? The unrepentant will go to hell, not heaven.
But Jesus FULFILLED the Law, and we have DIED to it.
Romans 7: "1 Or do you not know, brothers—for I am speaking to those who know the law—that the law is binding on a person only as long as he lives? 2 For a married woman is bound by law to her husband while he lives, but if her husband dies she is released from the law of marriage. 3 Accordingly, she will be called an adulteress if she lives with another man while her husband is alive. But if her husband dies, she is free from that law, and if she marries another man she is not an adulteress.
4 Likewise, my brothers, you also have died to the law through the body of Christ, so that you may belong to another, to him who has been raised from the dead, in order that we may bear fruit for God. 5 For while we were living in the flesh, our sinful passions, aroused by the law, were at work in our members to bear fruit for death. 6 But now we are released from the law, having died to that which held us captive, so that we serve in the new way of the Spirit and not in the old way of the written code."
BTW - Paul didn't hate the Law, he rejoiced that it showed him his need for forgiveness.
“Then Pharisees and scribes came to Jesus from Jerusalem and said, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? For they do not wash their hands when they eat.”
He answered them, “And why do you break the commandment of God for the sake of your tradition? For God commanded, ‘Honor your father and your mother,’ and, ‘Whoever reviles father or mother must surely die.’ But you say, ‘If anyone tells his father or his mother, “What you would have gained from me is given to God,” he need not honor his father.’ So for the sake of your tradition you have made void the word of God.
You hypocrites! Well did Isaiah prophesy of you, when he said:
“’This people honors me with their lips,
but their heart is far from me;
in vain do they worship me,
teaching as doctrines the commandments of men.’”
And he called the people to him and said to them, “Hear and understand: it is not what goes into the mouth that defiles a person, but what comes out of the mouth; this defiles a person.”
Then the disciples came and said to him, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this saying?” He answered, “Every plant that my heavenly Father has not planted will be rooted up. Let them alone; they are blind guides. And if the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.”
But Peter said to him, “Explain the parable to us.” And he said, “Are you also still without understanding? Do you not see that whatever goes into the mouth passes into the stomach and is expelled? But what comes out of the mouth proceeds from the heart, and this defiles a person. For out of the heart come evil thoughts, murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false witness, slander. These are what defile a person. But to eat with unwashed hands does not defile anyone.”
Matthew 15
Rashi 's commentary on this is:
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
And I will bring the third in fire: And I will bring the third in straits in the smelting-pot
of fire (Jonathan), so that some of the proselytes should bear the birth pang of the
Messiah and the war of Gog and Magog with Israel. From there they shall be tested [as
to] whether [or not] they are true proselytes. Then, many of those who previously
converted to Judaism shall return to their pre-conversion customs and join Gog.
We find [this idea] in the Aggadah (Avodah Zarah 3b; Midrash Psalms 2:5, footnote 29).
and he shall say, “The Lord…”: When he prays, he will pray to the Lord and not to his
previous deity.
Actually it was a parable:
Mat 15:15 Then answered Peter and said unto him, Declare unto us this parable.
Mat 15:16 And Jesus said, Are ye also yet without understanding?
Mat 15:17 Do not ye yet understand, that whatsoever entereth in at the mouth goeth into the belly, and is cast out into the draught?
Mat 15:18 But those things which proceed out of the mouth come forth from the heart; and they defile the man.
Mat 15:19 For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Could not be clearer. Jesus tells us what makes a man unclean, and it isn’t not washing one’s hands.
There are two categories, koinos and akathartos. Koinos are othwise clean items that have become unclean ritually. Akathartos are those that are impure by nature. For example, God designated certain meats as akathartos to people presumably because they weren’t designed as food for the human body to ingest.
If anyone at the time had understood it as you understand that verse they would have strung Jesus up, right then and there because it clearly and unquestionably goes against the only scripture they had. They could have just opened up Leviticus and said “You’re a lying sack Jesus.” But they couldn’t open up Levicitcus and find anything that said you have to wash in this prescribed, hyper technical manner every time you eat.
Mat 15:2 Why do thy disciples transgress the tradition of the elders? for they wash not their hands when they eat bread.
They were concerned not with anything that God had said, but their own traditions (hand washing).
See 284
They eventually DID ‘string him up’, although it took place later, and after another attempt to kill him.
As you’ve noted, many early converts from Judaism continued to follow the Law - even Paul. And yet, with time, Paul’s own logic became irrefutable: “For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose.”
And even in Acts 15, no one put this burden on the Gentiles:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Acts%2015;&version=47;
There is nothing wrong with the Law. But its purpose is to bring us to God by bringing us to repentance.
Rashi is chopped liver?shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
It was about the tradition of hand washing. PERIOD
No, it doesn’t.
Unless you believe that believers in Heaven will behave thus:
“But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, ‘Pay what you owe.’ So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, ‘Have patience with me, and I will pay you.’ He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt.”
then we must conclude this is about our behavior here on earth - where the Kingdom of God has begun. And if we, who have been forgiven so much, refuse to forgive others and die unrepentant, then we face hell. For we won’t pay that debt ever.
But then, if we are born again, our new nature will fight to achieve forgiveness. And God judges our nature, not our failings: “Whoever believes in him is not condemned”.
Ummmm no, just pointing out other Jewish writings on the topic.
Guess we disagree. May the Holy Spirit bring us both to the truth.
Mat 15:20 These are [the things] which defile a man: but to eat with unwashen hands defileth not a man.
Pretty straight forward.
As were Peter’s experiences in Acts, and Paul’s writing.
If you agree the New Testament is scripture, we can discuss the issue. If not, then we would both be spinning our wheels and going no where.
I think its been adequately covered.
19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God: 20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
They still had laws to adhere to, they just didn't need to be circumcised.
28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.
Romans 10
5For Moses writes about the righteousness that is based on the law, that the person who does the commandments shall live by them. 6But the righteousness based on faith says, “Do not say in your heart, ‘Who will ascend into heaven?’” (that is, to bring Christ down) 7or “’Who will descend into the abyss?’” (that is, to bring Christ up from the dead). 8But what does it say? “The word is near you, in your mouth and in your heart” (that is, the word of faith that we proclaim); 9because, if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. 11For the Scripture says, “Everyone who believes in him will not be put to shame.” 12 For there is no distinction between Jew and Greek; for the same Lord is Lord of all, bestowing his riches on all who call on him. 13For “everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
And 11 is worth reading as well:
http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?book_id=52&chapter=11&version=47
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