The Doctrine of Purgatory [Ecumenical]

Catholic Culture ^ | 12/01 | Fr. John A. Hardon, S.J.

[Kansas58]

And, by the way, I did not say that Scripture was confusing, I said that Luther altered or edited out the parts of Scripture that he did not like.
I also said that Luther completely ignores some of the Scripture that remains, in his own reworking of the Bible.

There is CLEARLY a designation, by Jesus, to make Peter the head of the Church.

Peter CLEARLY had the authority to navigate and establish a system for his own replacement.

[bdeaner]

Is that a sin or the result of a temporal effect from sin?

Good question! I take it that a will not perfectly aligned with the Lord is not yet sin, but it strongly inclines one to sin, as a result of past sin. So, I would say the latter--a perverted will is the result of the temporal effects of sin.

[Kansas58]

Well, the fact you bring up, that the disciples did argue, makes MY point, not yours!
Though all of Scripture is Sacred, we must understand that even the first 12 did not agree, and that Paul did not always agree with the remaining 11.

So, Scripture is the work of man, inspired by God, but even Scripture shows us differences of opinion, among good, solid, Saintly Christians.

Also, Peter was head of the Church, on Earth, AFTER Crucifixion and Resurrection.

Jesus appointed his Successor on Earth, before Jesus left this Earth.

Peter did the same thing.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Folks, the Law has finished its purpose.

What exactly do you take this to mean? Jesus told us that he did NOT come to abolish the Law and that NOT one jot or tittle (terms use in Hebriac writing) would fade from the Law until the heavens and earth passed away. The heavens and the earth are STILL here, so is the Law. It didn't go anywhere and hasn't been abolished.

[bdeaner]

He sends tribulation for us to purge out our sins here on earth before we die, not after.

So you agree we experience "tribulation" as a way to purge us of our sins. That's what Catholics mean by purgatory! Same concept. Why can't it also happen after death, prior to our entering heaven? Plenty of Scripture supports this, as have been cited already.

[Mr Rogers]

“Luther also had some rather hateful things to say about the Jews. It is entirely possible that Luther’s antisemitism, and his “goal oriented” approach to Scripture, led Luther to get rid of any trace of Jewish tradition at the actual time of Christ, or just before Jesus was here on Earth.”

One of the nice things about being a Protestant is that I don’t hold anyone up as perfect...nor do Catholics about the Pope. I see no sign Luther was trying to scrub Jewish traditions from Christianity, except for where they were already dealt with by Jesus and Paul.

“That would help explain why Luther stripped the Deuterocannonical Books, books which Jesus honored, from Luther’s corrupted Bible.”

Ummm...no. For one thing, Luther wrote in his Bible translation in 1534: “APOCRYPHA, that is, Books which are not to be esteemed like the Holy Scriptures, and yet which are useful and good to read.”

Also, this from wikipedia: “Martin Luther translated the Bible into German during the early part of the 16th century, first releasing a complete Bible in 1534. His Bible was the first major edition to have a separate section called Apocrypha. Books and portions of books not found in the Hebrew Tanakh were moved out of the body of the Old Testament to this section. Luther placed these books between the Old and New Testaments. For this reason, these works are sometimes known as inter-testamental books. The books 1 and 2 Esdras were omitted entirely. Many twentieth century editions of the Luther Bible omit the Apocrypha section.”

If Luther took his actions because he was anti-Semitic, then why did he follow the Jews in not accepting those books not found in the Tanakh? If anything, you should accuse him of giving too much weight to Jewish opinion...

[Mr Rogers]

"Jesus told us that he did NOT come to abolish the Law and that NOT one jot or tittle (terms use in Hebriac writing) would fade from the Law until the heavens and earth passed away."

No, what Jesus said was, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

[Mr Rogers]

“Luther altered or edited out the parts of Scripture that he did not like.”

Simply untrue.

“Luther completely ignores some of the Scripture that remains, in his own reworking of the Bible.”

Odd. I’ve read passages of Luther speaking very highly of James, and James’ emphasis on works.

“There is CLEARLY a designation, by Jesus, to make Peter the head of the Church.”

Odd, then, that the Apostles didn’t understand it, and Jesus didn’t clarify it for them. And, BTW, JESUS is the Head of the Church. Period. Dot.

[bdeaner]

If they don’t repent of any sin, and turn away from it, I would think they would not make it to heaven.

Ok, but if a person repents of their sin after having broken a commandment, is there still any consequences, in this life or the next, of having broken the commandment? You suggested in another post that tribulation would be the consequence. Tribulations is defined as "great affliction, trial, or distress; suffering." This suffering, in the context you are using it, implies that suffering serves a cleansing function -- it serves in the process of sanctification of the saved. For Catholics, that's exactly what "purgatory" means -- a cleansing of the soul through suffering that results from the temporal effects of sin. However, whereas you see this kind of "tribulation" as restricted to this life only, Catholics believe that such "tribulation" can also happen in the afterlife as a preparation of (some of) the saved for heaven.

[Scythian]

Here are the only versus I have read that remind me of purgatory.

Luke 12:54-59

He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

"Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled to him on the way, or he may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

Restated in Matthew 5:23-26

"Therefore, if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, leave your gift there in front of the altar. First go and be reconciled to your brother; then come and offer your gift.

Settle matters quickly with your adversary who is taking you to court. Do it while you are still with him on the way, or he may hand you over to the judge, and the judge may hand you over to the officer, and you may be thrown into prison. I tell you the truth, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny.

[bdeaner]

Mr Rogers, note I did respond to your previous criticism of using Matt 5 and Luke 12 to support the doctrine of Purgatory. I addressed that issue HERE just in case you missed it.

In your exegesis here -- and I will have more to say about it later -- it seems you have ignored the clear parallel between the teaching in Matt 5 and Luke 12 with the parable in Matthew 18. This parallel suggests they should not be read in isolation, but together -- that they are mutually illuminating, not only for their obvious implications for how to behave in this life -- obvious, when taken on face value--, but also for what they reveal about Our Father in Heaven, and the process of salvation.

Yes, the parable is about forgiveness, just as Matt 5 is about settling with one's adversary--but both teachings are also saying something about the way justice is fulfilled in the order of things, by Our Father. "And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt," suggests that justice for sin requires sin to have consequences -- a debt that requires payment AND a payment that is finite rather than infinite, which suggests purgation of sin, not eternal damnation, in this context. And note, Christ tells us that this is occuring in the kingdom of heaven! So, the suffering is not happening in Hell. So where is it happening? In the portal to heaven, where the soul is purified for the beatific vision -- "purgatory."

[Marysecretary]

If Jesus didn’t die for those sins, why should he have bothered at all?

[Marysecretary]

I don’t do Greek translations. I KNOW what Jesus spoke. He said upon THIS ROCK, himself, I will build my Church.

[Marysecretary]

I don’t do Greek translations. I KNOW what Jesus spoke. He said upon THIS ROCK, himself, I will build my Church.

[Marysecretary]

Won’t he though? And you folks thought Peter was the Rock. I’m sure He’ll get a big kick out of that one.

[Marysecretary]

And what’s prideful about expecting God to show me the truth? You must have a problem with His ability, through the Holy Spirit, to tell me what HE wants me to know.

[ET(end tyranny)]

Also, Peter was head of the Church, on Earth, AFTER Crucifixion and Resurrection.

That is NOT what is shown in Acts. It is JAMES that gave the final directive. And Eusebius gives two accounts in his Ecclesiastical History.

In Galatians 2:1-10,  Paul gives more information about the pre-eminence of James in the confrontation in Antioch that follows his discussion of what transpired in Jerusalem in regard to 'the Gospel as he proclaimed it among the Gentiles.'
This event is also called the Jerusalem Council, and its parrallel is in Acts 15.

Acts15
¹³   And after they had held their peace, James answered, saying, Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
¹⁴   Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles, to take out of them a people for his name.
¹⁵   And to this agree the words of the prophets; as it is written,
¹⁶   After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
¹⁷   That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
¹⁸   Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
¹⁹   Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
²⁰   But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
²¹   For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him, being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;

 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

Galatians 2:6,9
⁶   But of these who seemed to be somewhat, (whatsoever they were, it maketh no matter to me: God accepteth no man's person:) for they who seemed to be somewhat in conference added nothing to me:

⁹   And when James, Cephas, and John, who seemed to be pillars, perceived the grace that was given unto me, they gave to me and Barnabas the right hands of fellowship; that we should go unto the heathen, and they unto the circumcision.
¹⁰   Only they would that we should remember the poor; the same which I also was forward to do.

Paul must have forgotten about this part:
²⁰   But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.

James was the successor of Jesus.  James was the Leader of the Jerusalem Community (Assembly) and of the Church as a whole.  James was the Head of Christianity of his day, whatever this may have been said to be.  Bishop of Jerusalem is not simply one among equals, but the leader.  This is why Paul resented James so much, and it is why James sent others to spy on Paul.  And this is why Peter left the table at Antioch.  If Peter had been 'in charge', why feel guilty about breaking table fellowship with gentiles?  Answer, because James was in charge and Head of the Church

Galatians 2
¹¹   But when Peter was come to Antioch, I withstood him to the face, because he was to be blamed.
¹²   For before that certain came from James, he did eat with the Gentiles: but when they were come, he withdrew and separated himself, fearing them which were of the circumcision.
¹³   And the other Jews dissembled likewise with him; insomuch that Barnabas also was carried away with their dissimulation.

They left because James who was in authority sent people to check up on things in Antioch, and they got caught with their hands in the cookie jar so to speak.

Eusebius:  Ecclesiastical History
http://biblefacts.org/ecf/cvol1/euseb_b2.html

Book  II

CHAPTER I. The Course pursued by the Apostles after the Ascension of Christ. First, then, in the place of Judas, the betrayer, Matthias, who, as has been shown was also one of the Seventy, was chosen to the apostolate. And there were appointed to the diaconate, for the service of the congregation, by prayer and the laying on of the hands of the apostles, approved men, seven in number, of whom Stephen was one. He first, after the Lord, was stoned to death at the time of his ordination by the slayers of the Lord, as if he had been promoted for this very purpose. And thus he was the first to receive the crown, corresponding to his name, which belongs to the martyrs of Christ. Then James, whom the ancients surnamed the Just on account of the excellence of his virtue, is recorded to have been the first to be made bishop of the church of Jerusalem. This James was called the brother of the Lord because he was known as a son of Joseph, and Joseph was supposed to be the father of Christ, because the Virgin, being betrothed to him, "was found with child by the Holy Ghost before they came together," as the account of the holy Gospels shows. But Clement in the sixth book of his Hypotyposes writes thus: "For they say that Peter and James and John after the ascension of our Savior, as if also preferred by our Lord, strove not after honor, but chose James the Just bishop of Jerusalem."

[Marysecretary]

Jesus had an agenda. He KNEW He was going to raise Lazarus from the dead. He wouldn’t have prayed for Lazarus if He thought He couldn’t do what He intended. Go ahead and pray for the dead if it makes you feel better, but it will do absolutely nothing for you OR them.

[ET(end tyranny)]

No, what Jesus said was, "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."

Heaven and earth are STILL here, so ALL has NOT been accomplished. The Law is STILL HERE.

[ET(end tyranny)]

I see no sign Luther was trying to scrub Jewish traditions from Christianity, except for where they were already dealt with by Jesus and Paul.

What Jewish traditions do you think Jesus scrubbed?