| This thread has been locked, it will not receive new replies. |
|
Locked on 07/22/2009 7:38:29 PM PDT by Admin Moderator, reason:
Childish behavior. |
Posted on 07/20/2009 9:32:05 PM PDT by bdeaner
JESUS was the Rock, not Peter. He was a pebble, a shepherd for the flock. There IS no indication in Scripture that Peter was Pope.
Why would God send people to suffer in Purgatory? NO. He sends tribulation for us to purge out our sins here on earth before we die, not after. Such nonsense.
Thou shalt not commit murder.
I. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
Matt. 5:26,18:34; Luke 12:58-59 – Jesus teaches us, “Come to terms with your opponent or you will be handed over to the judge and thrown into prison. You will not get out until you have paid the last penny.” The word “opponent” (antidiko) is likely a reference to the devil (see the same word for devil in 1 Pet. 5:8) who is an accuser against man (c.f. Job 1.6-12; Zech. 3.1; Rev. 12.10), and God is the judge. If we have not adequately dealt with satan and sin in this life, we will be held in a temporary state called a prison, and we won’t get out until we have satisfied our entire debt to God. This “prison” is purgatory where we will not get out until the last penny is paid.
Actually, the passage in Matthew 5 reads:
" 21 "You have heard that it was said to those of old, 'You shall not murder; and whoever murders will be liable to judgment.' 22But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother will be liable to judgment; whoever insults his brother will be liable to the council; and whoever says, 'You fool!' will be liable to the hell of fire. 23 So if you are offering your gift at the altar and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24leave your gift there before the altar and go. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift. 25 Come to terms quickly with your accuser while you are going with him to court, lest your accuser hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the guard, and you be put in prison. 26Truly, I say to you, you will never get out until you have paid the last penny."
I've commented on this earlier. The idea that we need to “Come to terms with” Satan so we can get out of Hell or Purgatory is a bit obscene. In the context of Matthew 5, this means we need, under our own power, to forgive others perfectly, or be damned to Hell forever – because this is what the law against murder REALLY means.
Matthew 18:
" 21Then Peter came up and said to him, "Lord, how often will my brother sin against me, and I forgive him? As many as seven times?" 22Jesus said to him, "I do not say to you seven times, but seventy times seven.
23"Therefore the kingdom of heaven may be compared to a king who wished to settle accounts with his servants. 24When he began to settle, one was brought to him who owed him ten thousand talents. 25 And since he could not pay, his master ordered him to be sold, with his wife and children and all that he had, and payment to be made. 26So the servant fell on his knees, imploring him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you everything.' 27And out of pity for him, the master of that servant released him and forgave him the debt. 28But when that same servant went out, he found one of his fellow servants who owed him a hundred denarii, and seizing him, he began to choke him, saying, 'Pay what you owe.' 29So his fellow servant fell down and pleaded with him, 'Have patience with me, and I will pay you.' 30He refused and went and put him in prison until he should pay the debt. 31When his fellow servants saw what had taken place, they were greatly distressed, and they went and reported to their master all that had taken place. 32Then his master summoned him and said to him, 'You wicked servant! I forgave you all that debt because you pleaded with me. 33 And should not you have had mercy on your fellow servant, as I had mercy on you?' 34 And in anger his master delivered him to the jailers, until he should pay all his debt. 35 So also my heavenly Father will do to every one of you, if you do not forgive your brother from your heart."
Matthew 18 is about forgiving others. If we refuse to forgive others as God has forgiven us, then we are not new creatures. I'm not saying it is always easy or automatic, but God knows our hearts. He knows if we are new creatures, and if we are striving to please him – not to gain salvation, but because of it.
Matt. 5:48 - Jesus says, "be perfect, even as your heavenly Father is perfect." We are only made perfect through purification, and in Catholic teaching, this purification, if not completed on earth, is continued in a transitional state we call purgatory.
In context:
17 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. 18For truly, I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20For I tell you, unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven.
21 "You have heard that it was said
27 "You have heard that it was said,
31 "It was also said,
33"Again you have heard that it was said to those of old
38 "You have heard that it was said
43 "You have heard that it was said, 'You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, Love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven. For he makes his sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.
I take all this because it sets the context, without which Matthew 5 cannot be understood.
Jesus starts with saying that he did not come to abolish the Law - "I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished."
He then says that the paragons of virtue in Jewish society, the Pharisees, fail to meet God's standard - " unless your righteousness exceeds that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will never enter the kingdom of heaven."
He then shows, in a series of statements, that what 'you were told' is just the surface, but the Law applies to the heart. This is crucial to the long post I made quoting Luther - that the Law isn't about the actions, but about our heart's desires.
He then concludes, "You therefore must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."
This is incredibly damning for anyone who listens, since it is obvious that NO MAN - not even Mary - abides by this standard. If anyone wants to know why they must be "born again", let them read Matthew 5.
Remember, later on Jesus teaches that the dietary laws do NOT have to be obeyed, and Paul teaches that circumcision is of no value either. So either Jesus lied when he said, " I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not an iota, not a dot, will pass from the Law until all is accomplished", OR the Law has accomplished what it needed to do.
Romans 3: " 19Now we know that whatever the law says it speaks to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be stopped, and the whole world may be held accountable to God. 20For by works of the law no human being will be justified in his sight, since through the law comes knowledge of sin."
Romans 8: " 1There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2For the law of the Spirit of life has set you free in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death. 3For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, 4in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."
Folks, the Law has finished its purpose. It has been accomplished. It has brought us to Christ, crucified, that we might be born again. All of Matthew 5 needs to be understood in this - we cannot ACT good enough, we must be BORN AGAIN.
Matt. 12:32 – Jesus says, “And anyone who says a word against the Son of man will be forgiven; but no one who speaks against the Holy Spirit will be forgiven either in this world or in the next.” Jesus thus clearly provides that there is forgiveness after death. The phrase “in the next” (from the Greek “en to mellonti”) generally refers to the afterlife (see, for example, Mark 10.30; Luke 18.30; 20.34-35; Eph. 1.21 for similar language). Forgiveness is not necessary in heaven, and there is no forgiveness in hell. This proves that there is another state after death, and the Church for 2,000 years has called this state purgatory.
Actually, all this says is that it won't be forgiven now, and it won't be forgiven after death - we will be judged for denying the Holy Spirit's testimony of Jesus Christ. You will not find forgiveness for rejecting Jesus on Judgment Day.
Luke 12:47-48 - when the Master comes (at the end of time), some will receive light or heavy beatings but will live. This state is not heaven or hell, because in heaven there are no beatings, and in hell we will no longer live with the Master.
Here is the full passage:
35 "Stay dressed for action and keep your lamps burning, 36and be like men who are waiting for their master to come home from the wedding feast, so that they may open the door to him at once when he comes and knocks. 37 Blessed are those servants whom the master finds awake when he comes. Truly, I say to you, he will dress himself for service and have them recline at table, and he will come and serve them. 38If he comes in the second watch, or in the third, and finds them awake, blessed are those servants! 39 But know this, that if the master of the house had known at what hour the thief was coming, he would not have left his house to be broken into. 40You also must be ready, for the Son of Man is coming at an hour you do not expect."
41Peter said, "Lord, are you telling this parable for us or for all?" 42And the Lord said, "Who then is the faithful and wise manager, whom his master will set over his household, to give them their portion of food at the proper time? 43 Blessed is that servant whom his master will find so doing when he comes. 44Truly, I say to you, he will set him over all his possessions. 45But if that servant says to himself, 'My master is delayed in coming,' and begins to beat the male and female servants, and to eat and drink and get drunk, 46the master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he does not know, and will cut him in pieces and put him with the unfaithful. 47 And that servant who knew his master’s will but did not get ready or act according to his will, will receive a severe beating. 48 But the one who did not know, and did what deserved a beating, will receive a light beating. Everyone to whom much was given, of him much will be required, and from him to whom they entrusted much, they will demand the more.
This merely states that man will be punished in accordance with what he knows - ie, God is just. We know that 'servant' doesn't mean 'believer', since at least one servant will be cut in pieces.
Fuller commentary here: Barnes
or Gill 47
and Gill 48
Luke 16:19-31 - in this story, we see that the dead rich man is suffering but still feels compassion for his brothers and wants to warn them of his place of suffering. But there is no suffering in heaven or compassion in hell because compassion is a grace from God and those in hell are deprived from God's graces for all eternity. So where is the rich man? He is in purgatory.
This is a rabbinical story - Jesus WAS a Rabbi, and taught as one - and not supposed to be taken with a literalness outside its purpose. There will be at least regret at the beginning of heaven, for it is written, "3And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling place of God is with man. He will dwell with them, and they will be his people, and God himself will be with them as their God. 4 He will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning, nor crying, nor pain anymore, for the former things have passed away." Without regrets, there would be no tears to wipe away. Yet we will come to understand the justice of God, and have no more regrets - which is the attitude of Lazarus in the tale. And the part of telling his brothers merely sets up the finale, where the rich man is told they already have all the warning they need - which was the main point of Jesus.
1 Cor. 15:29-30 - Paul mentions people being baptized on behalf of the dead, in the context of atoning for their sins (people are baptized on the dead’s behalf so the dead can be raised). These people cannot be in heaven because they are still with sin, but they also cannot be in hell because their sins can no longer be atoned for. They are in purgatory. These verses directly correspond to 2 Macc. 12:44-45 which also shows specific prayers for the dead, so that they may be forgiven of their sin.
Baptism for the dead...in 1 Corinthians, Paul writes, " 29Otherwise, what do people mean by being baptized on behalf of the dead? If the dead are not raised at all, why are people baptized on their behalf? 30Why are we in danger every hour?..." Please notice the transition, from 'people' to 'we'. He does NOT write, "Why are WE baptized for the dead?"
However, it is my understanding - from you, friend - that Catholic teaching on the Eucharist is that it becomes a sacrifice of truly Christ, yet not a REPEAT sacrifice of Christ - this being possible because God exits outside of time. I don't know if I agree on the latter, but IF God exists outside of time, then neither prayers for the dead nor baptism for the dead would be without avail, since from God's perspective we are always living and always dead.
As I said, I'm not sure I believe God is outside of time, or of this interpretation, but I think you as a Catholic can understand it. I don't mind offering prayer for someone who is dead, since how do I know what happened just before the person died? Why would it be wrong to pray, even after the fact, that the person knew repentance just before it was too late?
Phil. 2:10 - every knee bends to Jesus, in heaven, on earth, and "under the earth" which is the realm of the righteous dead, or purgatory.
Umm...in Jewish thought, I've read, 'under the earth' designated the place where rebellious angels were cast.
2 Tim. 1:16-18 - Onesiphorus is dead but Paul asks for mercy on him “on that day.” Paul’s use of “that day” demonstrates its eschatological usage (see, for example, Rom. 2.5,16; 1 Cor. 1.8; 3.13; 5.5; 2 Cor. 1.14; Phil. 1.6,10; 2.16; 1 Thess. 5.2,4,5,8; 2 Thess. 2.2,3; 2 Tim. 4.8). Of course, there is no need for mercy in heaven, and there is no mercy given in hell. Where is Onesiphorus? He is in purgatory.
Where is Onesiphorus? Perhaps on his way home. There is no indication anywhere that Onesiphorus is dead. And Paul was ministered to by him, and we know this letter is destined to go to where Onesiphorus's family lives. Also, I pray for mercy for my Mother's soul. She had a lot of bitterness to God, but it seemed to ease off as she became older. Then she started losing her ability to think. I don't know where she was spiritually when she died, but I have no problem with praying for her now, knowing God knew of those prayers before she died.
Heb. 12:14 - without holiness no one will see the Lord. We need final sanctification to attain true holiness before God, and this process occurs during our lives and, if not completed during our lives, in the transitional state of purgatory.
"14 Strive for peace with everyone, and for the holiness without which no one will see the Lord."
In this life, we strive (AFTER THE NEW BIRTH) to obey, while our flesh fights against us. However, we shall be presented PERFECT on Judgment Day, for Hebrews also says (Ch 10) that Jesus has made us perfect forever. But while we live on this world, it is a battle against the flesh. That will cease when our flesh dies, our spirits go to God, and then we receive our new bodies on that Day.
Heb. 12:23 - the spirits of just men who died in godliness are "made" perfect. They do not necessarily arrive perfect. They are made perfect after their death. But those in heaven are already perfect, and those in hell can no longer be made perfect. These spirits are in purgatory.
"to the spirits of the righteous made perfect" - which has already happened: Hebrews 10: "14For by a single offering he has perfected for all time those who are being sanctified."
HAS PERFECTED FOR ALL TIME!
I'll work on the rest later...it takes a while to respond to all the stuff in post 30.
The Catholic Church teaches that purgatory is a state of purgation, or purification, for those who are in a state of grace and friendship with God (cf. Rom. 11:22). These side effects, or temporal effects of sin operate in either this life or the next, and can result from inordinate attachment to creatures, or as a result of possessing a will that is not fully united with God's will.
or as a result of possessing a will that is not fully united with God's will.
Is that a sin or the result of a temporal effect from sin?
However, it is VERY clear that Jesus set up Peter as the head of his Church, and it is also logical to assume that Peter would set up a successor.
Apostolic Succession is a concept accepted by the vast majority of Christians. The only difference, on that point, with Orthodox and Anglican would be the Papal authority.
Make no mistake, even the Orthodox recognize the Pope as the Bishop of Rome, and authoritative as a Bishop.
What do you think Jesus meant by telling Peter that he could bind and loose things on Earth and in Heaven?
What ELSE could those words possibly mean?
Tradition is as important a tool, for the Faith, as Scripture.
The Early Christians had to meld Jewish tradition with Early Christian tradition. We can only guess, sometimes, at how this was done. There is scripture, to be sure, to help in some areas. However, when the various parts of the New Testament were written, not a single document really acknowledges all of the other documents, or Books.
It is more than likely that many of the Sacred works of the Apostles, many of their notes and writings, have been lost forever.
Scripture is helpful, but not all inclusive of what comprises faith. Historical facts, such as the fact that Jesus did not object to prayers for the Dead, the fact that Jesus prayed for Lazarus, the fact that Jesus never objected to Maccabees as part of Sacred Scripture, in the Temples where Jesus prayed to His Father -— these things speak louder than words.
Then, we have the ACTUAL words of Jesus, words like “Build” -—
What country elects a leader without a successor?
What company can survive without a successor?
God gave us brains.
God expects us to read between the lines.
(Of course, in your case, you have to read the lines themselves, first!)
I don’t read between the lines. I expect God to show me the truth, not false precepts.
“Why does God allow the saved to suffer in this life? How do you explain that?”
Traditionally, it is thought of as an example to others, and a way to focus us on the eternal instead of the temporary world we find ourselves in.
Neither is appropriate after death. Once dead, we will have no trouble in focusing on the eternal...
If they don’t repent of any sin, and turn away from it, I would think they would not make it to heaven.
Pride is a sin.
It is not my place to judge, but it is my place to warn.
God also has a sense of humor, and God will laugh at many who thought, vainly, that they had all of the answers.
Oh, I KNOW the purging goes on here on earth. We suffer so we can have things burned out of us that cause us to sin or stand in the way of our relationship to Jesus Christ. Suffering has shown me many things I wouldn’t have learned without it.
“Peter you are rock and upon this rock I will build my Church” “Whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, whatsoever you loose on Earth will be loosed in Heaven.”
Jesus would not use these words for any other reason than to make Peter head of the Church.
It is logical to assume that Peter would set up a process for his successor, which he did.
Jesus gave Peter this power, by his very words.
And please don’t get into the Greek translation stuff. Jesus spoke in Aramaic, and there is no gender difference, for “rock” in that language.
“But, that there are in the Scriptures some things abstruse, and that all things are not quite plain, is a report spread abroad by the impious Sophists by whose mouth you speak here, Erasmus. But they never have produced, nor ever can produce, one article whereby to prove this their madness. And it is with such scare-crows that Satan has frightened away men from reading the Sacred Writings, and has rendered the Holy Scripture contemptible, that he might cause his poisons of philosophy to prevail in the church. This indeed I confess, that there are many places in the Scriptures obscure and abstruse; not from the majesty of the thing, but from our ignorance of certain terms and grammatical particulars; but which do not prevent a knowledge of all the things in the Scriptures. For what thing of more importance can remain hidden in the Scriptures, now that the seals are broken, the stone rolled from the door of the sepulcher, and that greatest of all mysteries brought to light, Christ made man: that God is Trinity and Unity: that Christ suffered for us, and will reign to all eternity? Are not these things known and proclaimed even in our streets? Take Christ out of the Scriptures, and what will you find remaining in them?
All the things, therefore, contained in the Scriptures; are made manifest, although some places, from the words not being understood, are yet obscure. But to know that all things in the Scriptures are set in the clearest light, and then, because a few words are obscure, to report that the things are obscure, is absurd and impious. And, if the words are obscure in one place, yet they are clear in another. But, however, the same thing, which has been most openly declared to the whole world, is both spoken of in the Scriptures in plain words, and also still lies hidden in obscure words. Now, therefore, it matters not if the thing be in the light, whether any certain representations of it be in obscurity or not, if, in the mean while, many other representations of the same thing be in the light. For who would say that the public fountain is not in the light, because those who are in some dark narrow lane do not see it, when all those who are in the Open market place can see it plainly?”
The Bondage of Will, by Martin Luther to Erasmus
Yes, and this was available to us in the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament), which I posted about with examples in post #103
That would help explain why Luther stripped the Deuterocannonical Books, books which Jesus honored, from Luther's corrupted Bible.
Make no mistake, I do believe that Luther had some very valid points, but his solution, his “fix” for the problems he saw, were anti-scriptural in the extreme.
That would help explain why Luther stripped the Deuterocannonical Books, books which Jesus honored, from Luther's corrupted Bible.
Make no mistake, I do believe that Luther had some very valid points, but his solution, his “fix” for the problems he saw, were anti-scriptural in the extreme.
Perhaps more to the point, none of his disciples listening that day, in any language, understood it, since they debated a short time later who was the greatest.
And when they did, Jesus didn’t reply, “Peter”. Instead, he made it plain the entire argument was wrong.
And since all the disciples were granted the power to bind and loose a couple of chapters later, I find it hard to believe that Peter was made Vicar of Christ. If Jesus did, he sure hid it well.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.