Posted on 07/11/2009 6:11:46 AM PDT by GonzoII
Wasn't Mary a descendant of the illegitimate offspring of David and Bathsheba?
How does that mean that Mary must have sinned and do you believe that God has no power to remove the sin in one’s blood in order for Christ to enter the world through a sinless Mary?
If Mary had sin in her it means that sin has power over the incarnation because God has not the power to give such Grace to remove sin from the Mary who He joined with Christ in her womb.
I'm done posting tonight
A) Doesn't it say somewhere in The Bible that ALL have sinned and fallen short of The Glory of God?
B)I don't know how much power your god has, but my God has enough power to do whatever He wants.
Mary was not sinless, just a virgin. I don’t try to put God in a box.
Great stuff!
Do not use potty language - or references to potty language - on the Religion Forum.
Then he committed suicide. Last time I checked, he died of wounds inflicted on him, perhaps at the hour of his choosing, but nonetheless his death was bodily real. Surely you are not suggesting he faked it?
If you want a theological take on it, he died in his human nature a real death, just like any one of us. Having assumed the sins of the whole world, he suffered corruption and death, even if he personally did not commit those sins.
His resurrection proves that death has been defeated.
In the context of him offering himself as ransom for us, yes. As +John Chrysostom says "Death expected a body and received God." Our sins have been "paid for" and death couldn't hold him, so death lost. It's a nice story, but it all boils down to hope that this is what happened. There is no proof of anything.
Mary's bodily assumption proves that a creature of God in perfect union with God's will defeated the OT Eve's disobedience,thus making her the New Eve that overcame fallen nature by being “full of Grace”(Kecharitomene)
But the "New Eve" according to the Latin Church never had a fallen nature to overcome. Yet it doesn't explain why would she die if she was not fallen and never sinned. Obviously the Church in the East believed all along that she did die and even celebrated her feast of Dormition. If the West did not believe that, why wasn't that brought up?
What you're saying is that mortality has to have precedence over perfection,even in the case of Jesus and Mary.This would make Adam and Eve's sin have power over God.
No, bother, it is not I but the Orthodox Church that teaches that our sin resulted in a fallen (mortal) nature and that from then on it is in our nature to die. If death did not have precedence then why did Christ have to die to render death powerless? Obviously no one could be saved before Christ, so it seems to me that death had quite a precedence on earth.
If Mary was incorrupt she would not have died. The Church (Eastern) believes she died, ergo she was not without corruption even if she was sinless because it was in her (mortal, fallen) nature to die. And when Jesus took the sins of the world, he died.
Mary is also the “Immaculate ark” of the New Covenant joined together with Christ in her womb.(not just some vessel as some protestants think)
Not in the early Church, certainly not before +Irenaeus. But +Ignatius at the turn of the first century called her a "suitable vessel." Surely he is not counted as a "Protestant" in the Latin Church. And +Justin Martyr, just 50 years later called her an "obedient virgin" and then proceeded to suggest that virgin Eve conceived the word of the serpent, while virign Mary conceived the Word of God! I can't begin to tell you how heretical this is!
+Irenaeus, forty years later (but in a Latin copy dating to the late 4th century; the Greek original id nonextant) called her advocata, suggesting intercession, an unfortunate term because in Greek it translates as Paraclete (the title of the Holy Spirit!). Origen (250 AD) is the first to call her Theotokos, but no one yet calls her immaculate.
It is only in the third century, mostly under Origen's influence, that Mary begins to be exalted (as in the Sub Tuum Praesidium, a 250 A.D prayer) and capable of "delivering [sic] us from dangers." The ever-growing eexaltation of Mary obviously grew only to be incorporated into the dogmatic deposit of the Church through the Ecumenical Councils, but not before that.
“”If you want a theological take on it, he died in his human nature a real death, just like any one of us. Having assumed the sins of the whole world, he suffered corruption and death, even if he personally did not commit those sins.””
I agree with this
The point I’m trying to make here is that sin had no power over Christ because death was defeated in His Resurrection
“”But the “New Eve” according to the Latin Church never had a fallen nature to overcome.””
It’s explained by God granting Mary a singular act of Grace not given to any other creature other than Adam and Eve,thus, Mary’s obedience overturned the disobedience of eve and thus become the New Eve to become universal mother of all that have been redeemed.
God is not limited in granting Mary this special Grace,dear brother
Here is more from Fulton Sheen....
“Our Blessed Mother: not only did she beget a Son, but the Son also begot her. This is the connection between Bethlehem and Calvary. She gave Him Sonship, but He also gave her Motherhood. At the crib ... His Mother; at the Cross she was called the “Woman.” No Son in the world but Christ could ever make His Mother the mother of all men, because the flesh is possessive and exclusive. Making her the Woman or the Universal Mother was like a new creative word. He made her twice: once for Himself, and once for us in His Mystical Body. She made Him as the new Adam; He now installs her as the new Eve, the Mother of mankind.
This transfer of His Mother to men was, appropriately, at the moment He redeemed them. That word “Woman” from the Cross was the second Annunciation, and John was the second Nativity. What joy went with her mothering Him! What anguish went with His Mothering her! Mary’s mind was filled with the thought of Divinity in the stable; but at Golgotha it is sinners that are uppermost in her mind, and she now begins their mothering. The curse of Eve hangs heavily on Mary: “Thou shalt bring forth children in sorrow.” When we contrast the great difference between her Divine Son and us, her sorrow, from our point of view, must have been not only “How can I live without Him?” but also “How can I live with them?” This was the miracle of substitution, for how can one be satisfied with straggling rays when one has been with the sun? The humility of which she sang at the Magnificat was not only a confession of unworthiness to be the Mother of God, but also the admission now of her readiness to be the Mother of man. It was a grief not to die with Him; it was a greater grief to live on with us.”
Taken from THE WORLD’S FIRST LOVE by Bishop Fulton Sheen 1952http://www.catholictradition.org/Mary/mary-sword1.htm
I’m off to enjoy the day.
I wish you a blessed day!
Because, Christ being God, death could not keep him. It's really no special effort on his part, is there? His resurrection (as per the Creed) is proof of his own divinity, yet Paul insists that he was raised by God and not on his own.
thus, Mary’s obedience overturned the disobedience of eve and thus become the New Eve to become universal mother of all that have been redeemed.
I am not disputing that. I asked why did she die if she was created as a pre-fall human and never sinned.
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