Posted on 06/13/2009 7:20:36 PM PDT by cmj328
“Doesn’t that tell us that this practice is out of the bounds of natural procreation?”
Obviously. It is pretty far out there, until the point of successful implantation. After that, it’s pretty much SOP, and that should be comforting as the “weirdness” is over at that point. The kids that come out of the process are just kids so there seems to be nothing unconventional there. They gurgle, they smile, they sleep a lot, and you change lots of diapers. They’re just kids. Comforting.
It’s everything leading up to the point of implantation that’s confusing, and society seems to be stumbling around as it usually does with avant garde reproductive technology. The Pill was the same way.
What’s bothersome lately is all of the “snowflake children”. Frozen embryos that donors won’t release to others. All those little embryos chillin’ out is downright spooky. You know, deep down, that you need to do something with them, but what? There seem to be a lot of them. Many think they should be afforded the same protections as first, second and third trimester fetuses, but I would hope we could do far more than that. It’s not like you’re a person at that stage, so you’ve really no protections available.
Snowflake Children, it’s a term that’s growing on me.
“Doesn’t that tell us that this practice is out of the bounds of natural procreation?”
I was on the way to bed, and it occurred to me that there isn’t much natural procreation these days. No snowflakes at this house, but both of my children wouldn’t be here without some fairly leading edge prenatal care and monitoring that, in my son’s case, allowed him to survive with about 48 hours to spare. I mean, the possibility of the problem being discovered was insanely long odds, and the possibility of surviving it with no lasting problems, way beyond that. He has God, luck and leading edge medical technology to thank for his survival and we’ve never let him forget it (and the gratifying thing is that he gets it). Nice.
So with birth control, artificial insemination, in-vitro fertilization and implantation, advanced prenatal care and intervention procedures, it’s getting hard to spot a case of natural procreation. I think it may be becoming something of a rarity, and that’s not necesarilly a bad thing. I’m certain my son and daughter would support that position, as would my niece and nephew (twins) who just turned three (both snowflakes). I doubt anyone of them will have a problem with being the beneficiaries of an unnatural process.
It must have been nice when we didn’t have these choices. But I didn’t start worrying about until well after the process was underway.
this should have been a predicted outcome of IVF, don't you think? if that's a fact, then the technology which made this possible should have been examined from beginning to end.
the U.S. was founded on moral principals, as you know, but often those ethics are ignored.
while some married couples, maybe many, have succeeded in having their own child due to IVF, how do we justify the existence of frozen embryos? something's very wrong here, imo.
please excuse my lower case typing; i've injured my right hand.
please, what sources do you have to support your words? i can't imagine most, if any, people agreeing with you.
again, what facts do you have to say this?
“this should have been a predicted outcome of IVF, don’t you think?”
Mmm. I dunno’ if it was really predictable (the fellow that started this posting might have a better feel for the historical aspects of the technology and how it’s related to the “snowflake” problem. Personally, I think it’s more along the line of an unintended consequence (a bad consequence certainly), that was created from a line of research that was well intended (maybe even noble). Couple that with parents wanting to have children by childbirth, but still retain ownership/guardianship of the fertilized egg.
What do you do with them when you have enough kids. I can tell you of a case in which it was a wrenching problem for the family. I think they had enough children by implant, and then started thinking about the ethical problems with having an embryo on ice. Whataya’ do with them. If you’re a fundamentalist Christian, they’re kids (cool kids, but kids no less). Well, the mom couldn’t stand it anymore, so she got on the meds and had the implant attempted. They didn’t take, so things were resolved, sort of. She tried to do the right thing, but I imagine there were a lot of “what ifs” going through her mind. Peculiar situations, where there are no easy answers (or acceptable ethical solutions) leave one in that sort of mode. She did right by the embryos in the end, even though the implant wasn’t successful. I don’t think that there was a general realization on the part of the practitioners that there was going to be such a demand for the procedure, or that there was going to be such a population of unused snowflakes.
Maybe the original poster that started this thread would like to chime in on how he viewed this problem developing historically. I’ll bet it would be interesting.
“please excuse my lower case typing; i’ve injured my right hand.”
No problem. I know the feeling, as I’m typing this on my netbook in the dark, and the keyboard is so tiny, I might as well be typing with one hand.
i can understand how you feel, but you made a decision to make this innocent baby your own and you would be wise and righteous to stop dwelling, even kind of forgetting, about how your baby was conceived.
factually, it's all history now. your obligation from today on is to enjoy your little one, take good care of him/her, and be thankful to God for being blessed with this child.
excuse my lack of uppercase type. i've injured my right hand.
If they were, they might turn into “zombryos”.
So while libs are aborting we will be multiplying.
Yes, I do realize this is a serious subject I just wanted to lighten it up a bit.
Ok, this should be fun. Let's get our terms straight first. If it's acceptable to you, I shall assume that “natural procreation” is not just the sex act, fertilization and endometrial implantation. I would view it as all the way from the “start”, to a normal vaginal childbirth. If you're willing to accept a definition that is that wide, I'll proceed. Let me assume that it's acceptable for the sake of moving the discussion along (you can yank my chain after you read this posting).
Now compare the fertilization-implantation-gestation-birth process that we have today, that which would be par for the course for humanity oh, say six hundred years ago (and I'm talking about a US health environment for the current conditions). First of all, effective birth control (BC) is new. It affects the age of the mother (they now tend to be moms at an older age). You can do the research on that particular bit of info, I'm not going to dig it out, but please indulge me if you disagree (I'll assume you would agree with me, again to move the discussion along expeditiously). So, as the average mom-age for first childbirth increases, there are additional problems introduced for the healthcare community. Older moms, mean different problems, more monitoring, more amniocentesis (it didn't even exist six centuries ago). As the average age for first mom-ification increases, the fertility rate decreases. Having kids is a young woman's game. It doesn't get easier as you get older (like lots of things).
As the fertility drops, it increases demand for various therapies to get the pregnancy started. This is where methodologies like in vivo/in vitro fertilization, and fertility medications come in with more on the way. None of this was available 600 years ago. You pretty much had kids....or you didn't. There weren't any real enhancement techniques (well, very few that made a lot of difference like they do today).
Embryo's now implanted. Old mom's are still more of a problem so you watch ‘em, monitor ‘em. Check out the kid as it develops. Old moms have more Down’s kids. Amniocentesis is now a relatively standard test, if the mom wants it (and lots do). If the results come back that it's a Down’s kid, well it's “open season” on those kids...maybe. Selective abortion of Down’s kids is common now. Very “unnatural”. In some societies, fetal girls are treated the same way. Admittedly horrific, but still unnatural, and regionally common. Even kids with detectable spina bifida are “removed from the process”. Don't believe it's common in the US? Ask an Obstetrician. Things can and are being done, regarding “natural procreation” that couldn't have been done 600 years ago, and quite frankly shouldn't be now.
Now, assuming the fetal “Little Dickens” has successfully run the detection gauntlet, he/she's still swimming towards the goal of a full term birth. Good luck. The inspections aren't over yet (and this part isn't bad, but it does have a bearing on whether the birth will be a “natural birth” or something......different that wasn't available 600 years ago.
Here's where personal experience comes in. My wife was scheduled for a normal ultrasound (old mom - OOPS!). Big blizzard blowing through. What to do? Cancel, or start the snowblower and blow out 400 hundred feet of driveway down to the highway in fifty mph winds.
Ok, blow it. All done.
“You wanna’ go along and see him?”. “NNNOOO. I think I'll just w-w-w-warm up”. “OK”.
Two hours later I get a call that the wife won't be home.
“Looks like Danny's gonna’ show up early”.
“Do we get a choice?”
“Nope”
Turns out he had a rapidly degenerating placenta and umbilical cord. Odds were he might have had a week,...maybe. It wouldn't have been detected, but for the ultrasound inspection. The OB had never seen one, outside of the autopsy table. So the advice was to get him outta’ there after 48 hours of IV steroids to harden up his lungs since he was on the mandatory preemie track. This was definitely turning into an “unnatural procreation”, that wasn't even available 20 years ago, let along 600.
Don't worry, he made it, but the umbilical cord “blew out” during the “un-natural” C-section. The doc was fast so he caught it, but I missed filming the blood spraying around the OR. Danny tells me he was sad I didn't get it filmed. He said it would have been “cool”. Yeah, right. >:-(
C-sections weren't common six centuries ago either. But they sure are now. Lucky thing for Danny too.
Well, you get the idea, if you've gotten’ this far with me, that the process of procreation is far less “natural” than it used to be. The result is lotsa’ good, and frankly lotsa’ bad. The trick is not choosing the bad (free will is a beautiful thing), and then things become lots better (especially for Dan).
I'm guessing you thought, when I mentioned “natural procreation”, that I was talking about all of that stuff on the fertilization side of the process.
Get your mind out of the gutter!!!
Procreation covers the whole process, right up to the time the Little Bugger pops out of wherever. And it's way different, and frankly very, very unnatural compared to what the process was like even in recent human history. Six hundred years ago was “yesterday” on the human time scale, yet the changes in the procreative process are massive, and continuing to accelerate.
Hold on, it's gonna’ get bumpier.
i, for one, thank you for lightening it up.
IOW, their salaries and what they could buy with them trumped their desire for children. That can wait til later and, in the meantime the pill will take care of it.
While that's not the complete answer to every difficulty involving pregnancy, do you recognize any truth in what I've said? Or, have I missed the mark. (With that I give you an opening to disagree.)
All the more reason to develop, at least, some ethical paradigms to handle the potential problems. Now whether folks adopt the paradigm(s), is another question.
“i, for one, thank you for lightening it up.”
FR has more than enough “sturm und drang” to supply even the federal government. There’s no reason that a disciplined (and courteous) discussion can’t take place on a serious. subject. Nice when it happens.
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