How Calvinist are you?

Anglicans in Melbourne & Geelong ^ | 6 May 2009 | Andreas Havinga

[Marysecretary]

Ah, I’m only 56% Calvinist.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

The better half. 8~)

[PAR35]

I only hit 81 - but one that I missed was because I misread the small type. (I thought they were asking about vaccinations, not vacations).

[Texas Songwriter]

Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, iii, xxiii, sec. 7, 1063.....”God not only forsaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.”

[PetroniusMaximus]

(please forgive the delay in responding.)

 

"... it was what you said - “I fail to see the rational behind evangelizing people to Calvinist anyway....  I do have a problem with Arminians who distort and twist Calvinism for their own purposes."

 

Help me out here. What is it about that comment that has you so worked up?

 

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"What does “predestined” mean to you? What does “chosen” and “elect” mean to you? These are clearly Biblical concepts so you can’t just ignore them?"

 

Israel was elect, they were chosen by God... but for what purpose? They were chosen so that God might show Himself strong on their behalf and (if they were obedient) bless them for the purpose of stirring up the nations around them to desire to come and worship the God of Israel.

 

God chooses people. He elects people. But He does so not so they can simply sit around and bask in the glory of their election! No, He does so in order to REACH OTHER PEOPLE THROUGH THEM!

 

We see the same theme in the NT. Look at calling of Paul when God Himself said:

 

"But the Lord said to him, “Go, for he is a chosen vessel of Mine to bear My name before Gentiles, kings, and the children of Israel." - Acts 9

 

Paul was chosen... chosen to bring God's name to others.

 

But just because someone is chosen or elect does not mean that they will live up to or fulfill their election. We know that Paul was conscious of being chosen from his mother's womb....

 

"But when he who had set me apart before I was born, and who called me by his grace, was pleased to reveal his Son to me, in order that I might preach him among the Gentiles, "

 

But he was also conscious that he could fail to live up to that calling...

 

"For if I preach the gospel, that gives me no ground for boasting. For necessity is laid upon me. Woe to me if I do not preach the gospel!"

 

 

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"IIn Romans 11, Paul is speaking of groups of people, notice the names used there (Israel & Gentiles). Trying to blend the two will not work."

 

That is preposteroious. In Calvinist theology the elect are ALWAYS the elect! Their status cannot CHANGE. Paul is clearly speaking of a change in status, i.e. being "cut off". The ELECT can't be "cut off" and the UNELECT can't possibly be grafted in. Yet, to Calvinism's dismay, that is exactly what the Bible teaches.

 

 

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There are really only three possibilities here.

 

No, there are four. You missed one.

 

4) God is not willing that any man, woman, or child on the planet should perish - He takes no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but He has created the universe in such a manner that people are able to participate in their eternal destination. God is not "powerless to stop them" but has sovereignty decreed that they should be given a choice and that they should invariably reap the results of their choices.

 

 

 

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What is it about the sovereignty of God that so offends you?

 

Nothing about sovereignty offends me. What offends me is lopsided Calvinist theology that is willfully blind to those passages which undercut it's cherished tenets.

[PetroniusMaximus]

Most Calvinists went to Arminian churches for decades.

 

And many Mormons went to protestant churches for decades. Do you see my point?

 

 

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"Let your conversation be without covetousness; and be content with such things as ye have: for he hath said, I will never leave thee, nor forsake thee." -- Hebrews 13:5

 

Balance, Dr E. balance...

 

"It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him:

If we suffer, we shall also reign with him: if we deny him, he also will deny us:

If we believe not, yet he abideth faithful: he cannot deny himself."  -  2 Tim 2

 

Did you ever see that passage in your Bible? 

 

Dr E., you can't just choose to believe only those things that "bring comfort to you".

 

You gotta believe the other stuff also.

[Dr. Eckleburg]

I believe all of the Bible. Wasn't it you who asked me earlier on this tread if I believed everything Paul wrote, implying you didn't? (Dr. E, let me first ask you this - do you believe all of Paul's writing, or only the ones you choose to believe?)

You never explained what part of Paul you don't believe.

[PetroniusMaximus]

"That question is regularly asked by the Roman Catholics to an assortment of Christians. Toplady was right. Arminianism is the road back to Rome."

 

Dr. E, Do you ever use the word "Salvation" - it is a latin based word and is regularly used by Roman Catholics!!!! Do you see, Calvinism is also the road back to Rome!!!!

 

Such silliness! Dr. E, you're better than that!

 

 

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" Either we save ourselves by being clever and insightful and prudent enough to choose to believe in Jesus Christ, or faith is first and completely the regenerative work of the Holy Spirit, ordained by God from before the foundation of the world."

 

False dichotomy. The Bible is clear that God come to man with the offer of the free gift of salvation and that man can either accept of refuse that gift.

 

 

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"If the former is true, your salvation depends on your own fortitude and wisdom. If the latter is true, our salvation rests on the strength and purpose of Christ alone."

 

Wrong again. Consider this, did Christ wander the earth healing strangers at random with no discernable method - like some divine lottery?

 

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"Christ told us the only thing necessary for salvation is faith in Him as Lord, King and Savior."

 

He ALSO told people to "repent or perish". Is repentance, turning from evil deeds, a "work" in your book?

 

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"And yes. I believe all things Paul wrote were inspired by the Holy Spirit."

 

So does this verse apply to you also?

 

"But if some of the branches were broken off, and you, although a wild olive shoot, were grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing root of the olive tree,  do not be arrogant toward the branches. If you are, remember it is not you who support the root, but the root that supports you.  Then you will say, "Branches were broken off so that I might be grafted in."  That is true. They were broken off because of their unbelief, but you stand fast through faith. So do not become proud, but fear.  For if God did not spare the natural branches, neither will he spare you.  Note then the kindness and the severity of God: severity toward those who have fallen, but God’s kindness to you, provided you continue in his kindness. Otherwise you too will be cut off.  And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. "

 

Dr. E, was Paul warning YOU that you also could be "cut off" unless "you continue in his kindness"???

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You never answer the questions posed to you by the Scripture provided. You simply turn away from them, ignore them or make light of them. You never answer them. Very telling.

False dichotomy. The Bible is clear that God come to man with the offer of the free gift of salvation and that man can either accept of refuse that gift.

I assume you've read John. Christ came to gather His own.

"But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you.

My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me:

And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand." -- John 10:26-28

Read Ephesians 1. If you believe in Christ as your Lord and Savior it is not because you're an intelligent, prescient, pious man, but because God wrote your name in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world.

I find it fascinating that Christians deny themselves this blessed understanding. To deny God's election plays right into the hands of the unbelieving world which tells Christians their faith rests on their own fortitude. Resist the lie. Your faith rests on God's predestining love which led you to Him.

[PetroniusMaximus]

You never answer the questions posed to you by the Scripture provided. You simply turn away from them, ignore them or make light of them. You never answer them. Very telling.

 

Dr. E, you are doing the same thing you accuse me of. You are refusing to address the passage I post to you! Do you not see the hypocrisy in that??? I will gladly address any Scripture you wish to look at, but it must be in the context of the overall book. You, in turn, must agree to respond to the passages I post to you.

 

You think you are contending for the truth of the Bible, but you are, in reality, only using select passages to defend Calvinist theology.

 

 

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And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand."

 

What else does John report of Jesus?

 

"I am the vine; you are the branches. Whoever abides in me and I in him, he it is that bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in me he is thrown away like a branch and withers; and the branches are gathered, thrown into the fire, and burned."

 

Does that sound slightly familiar? Does it remind you of Romans 11 and the warning to believers of branches being "cut off'?

 

 

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"but because God wrote your name in the Book of Life from before the foundation of the world."

 

You are aware that names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

 

 

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I find it fascinating that Christians deny themselves this blessed understanding.

 

And I am astounded at Christians who want to cling to "All the Blessings of the Bible" without showing the least interest in "All the Warnings of the Bible".

 

 

[Dr. Eckleburg]

You think you are contending for the truth of the Bible, but you are, in reality, only using select passages to defend Calvinist theology.

Calvinists ask you to consider the whole of Scripture in your understanding. You take a verse and insist on its meaning without context or reference.

You are aware that names can be blotted out of the Book of Life.

Christ and Paul tell us otherwise. I'll choose Christ and Paul, by the grace of God. Additionally, you misread Rev. 3:5.

[paulist]

Why are you dodging the question? You attributed the following quote to John Calvin.
“God is, in Himself, the cause and author of sin.”

I challenged you to document it or retract it. Rather than admit your mistake, you post a different (legitimate) quote, which does not make the same blasphemous charge against God. Saying that God ordained the fall of man should be obvious to anyone who believes in the omniscience of God.

The quote you originally attributed to John Calvin is a lie, and you are perpetuating the lie by refusing to retract it. John Calvin never accused God of being the cause of sin, nor the author of sin.

You really should be ashamed of yourself, and because you have demonstrated your lack of integrity, I am finished responding to you.

[PetroniusMaximus]

“You never explained what part of Paul you don’t believe.”

That would be because I believe them all.

[Texas Songwriter]

Calvin, Institutes of the Christian Religion, iii, xxiii, sec. 7, 1063.....”God not only forsaw the fall of the first man, and in him the ruin of his posterity; but also at his own pleasure arranged it.”

[HarleyD]

You are a genuine Calvinist. You have been tried and tested in Calvinism. Your attitude in live is straight and strict. You are a hard working person, who pays attention to others. However, you never show off these qualities. After all, in the eyes of God, everyone is a sinner. You know how to control your emotions, and no one can say you have an easy and luxurious way of life.

Work-100% You sure have a Calvinistic working ethos. You never work hard enough; work for you is your bounden duty. You are the type of employee any company desires, but the balance between your work and private life may get disturbed.

Strictness-100% You are rather strict and straight, as are more Calvinists. The advantage is that people can count on you, but your disadvantage is you find it difficult to have fun. Relax a little. Things without purpose make life more enjoyable.

Sobriety-67% You sure seem to be a Calvinist. You live life moderately, restrainedly and systematically. But don't forget that Calvin himself knew well how to enjoy life!

Relationships-100% You are a reliable partner, though you could be more enchanted. Don't be afraid of emotions!

Beliefs-100% You are not necessarily sombre, although Calvin's religious convictions are in your genes.

I apologize to my Calvinist brothers and sisters for my sobriety failings. With the grace of God, may He empower me to do better.

[HarleyD]

Hmmmm....I haven't followed all this conversation but this post surely could not go unchallenged. I believe your point is,

Calvinism is disgusting in that it puts a lie to the very words of Jesus that he came to seek that which was lost.

In fact our Lord Jesus did come to seek what is lost and His sheep HEAR HIS VOICE. Please consider:

Jhn 10:26-27 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me

Now, based upon our Lord Jesus' own words, they do not believe BECAUSE THEY WERE NOT HIS SHEEP. Had our Lord Jesus said, "You are not my sheep because you do not believe..." you may have had a point.

So, who exactly did our Lord Jesus came to seek and save? Who are the lost? It is clearly His sheep who are the lost. And we know that we are His sheep because we believe. Those who do not believe are simply not His sheep. Our goal is to find those who are His sheep, who will believe. Our goal is NOT to try to convince people to believe.

I would suggest you read John 10 very careful.

BTW-This is a very important piece of scripture in which shows the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit reveals the Son to us and through His working we come to Christ. Had our Lord Jesus simply said, "You are not my sheep because you do not believe...", our Lord would have been like every other religious figure, telling people to believe in Him so they can go to heaven. Instead He states that the reason we believe in Him is because God puts it in us, a very distinct difference that separates Christianity from every other religion in the world. What seems to be the problem is that the Arminian cannot fathom why He does not reveal the Son to everyone. He simply doesn't. That is His prerogative.

If you think I'm cherry picking verses there are plenty more. However, I would ask that you give a plausible interpretation to John 10.

[Lord_Calvinus]

I scored low. Evidently I’m not much of a Calvinist. Sigh! And, you don’t want to know what my views of the perfect wife are. ;^)

BTW, how are u doing?

[Dr. Eckleburg]

Lol. You must be partial to thick steaks and fancy duds, too.

We're all fine. How's you?