THE FOUR LAST THINGS ---- DEATH, JUDGMENT, HELL and HEAVEN IV. Some Other Torments of Hell.

I don't have much time tonight to comment, but when you really look at the scriptures describing Hell or the Lake of Fire (which I never said don't exist) it says that the FIRES are eternal it doesn't say that sinners will be kept alive, being burned for ever and ever and ever....

What the verses say or imply is that the consequence of Hell fire is eternal. That to me, now clearly means that once a person is destroyed in Hell fire their existence is gone forever. They are essentially eternally separated from God.

I'm not a new Christian. I have debated this topic (being on the side that says Hell/LoF is eternal torment) with many people, including some SDA. But after restudying the Scriptures, annihilation makes more sense with what is actually written in the Bible. (BTW, I'm not a Catholic, so posts on what “church fathers” or “Tradition” holds, has little value to me when compared to the Scripture.)

I'm definitely not saying “Believe me, because I say.” I'm saying study the Scriptures yourself. The link I provided does provide some excellent points based on Scripture.

(BTW, I'm not a Catholic, so posts on what “church fathers” or “Tradition” holds, has little value to me when compared to the Scripture.)

They do have historical value in understanding what the Church believed early on, that has nothing to do with your being a Catholic or not. You could just as well say that your German so you hold little value in any history book that claims there was a civil war in the US. in the 19th century, and details the policies of the US. government at that time.

The word destroy does not mean annihilate in this context, what is taught at that link cannot be reconciled with Scripture:

Lk:16:24: And he cried and said: Father Abraham, have mercy on me and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water to cool my tongue: for I am tormented in this flame.

A parable if you will, it still relates to the after life and the existence of the soul there and punishment.

I realize that you probably wont read the link, so let's look at the parable and it's context.

It is the fifth parable in a series of parables starting in Luke 15. These parables are in response to the Pharisees and scribes talking about how Jesus receives sinners and tax collectors.

The first parable is about the lost sheep and how a shepherd will leave the safe 99 to find the one lost sheep. The second parable is about the woman and the ten pieces of silver, and how she cleans house to find the one missing piece. The third parable is about the prodigal son who once was lost but now is found. The fourth parable is about the rich man and his steward who settles his debts for less then what was owed. The fifth parable is about the rich man and Lazarus.

A few interesting things to note:

When Jesus spoke to the groups he spoke ONLY in parables.

Matthew 13:34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

The parables all deal with money on some level.

The parables are about the value of the “least of these” over the money value.

Before starting the parable of Lazarus, Jesus states that the “Law and Prophets UNTIL John”.

The Pharisees are not happy with Jesus’s teachings.

After the Lazarus story, you read in Luke 17 about how Jesus heals 10 lepers but only ONE comes back and thanks Jesus. That one was a Samaritan, not a Jew.

The main reason people say that this isn’t a parable is because Jesus uses a name, so let’s look at that name. Lazarus is the Greek word for the Hebrew name Eliezer. What is interesting about that name is Abraham was going to give his inheritance to Eliezer of Damascus (Gen. 15:2-4), but God provided Abraham with his own lineage.

This raises the question as to why Jesus didn’t name the rich man. He does describe the rich man though, so we can analyze what those things tells us. The rich man was dressed in purple and fine linen (cambric). Purple was known as a royal color worn by kings and royalty. Cambric or fine linen was clothing worn by priests (Ex. 28:5, 25:4) and it decorated the Tabernacle (Ex. 26:1). Judah was given the position of ruler of the Jews (Gen. 49:10). Judah also had five brothers from his Leah (Reuben, Simeon, Levi, Issachar, Zebulun). Because Judah was the leader of the nation of Israel, Israelites were known as followers of Judah or what we now call Jews.

From this breakdown, we can see that the rich man symbolizes the nation of Israel, including their priests and kings. Lazarus symbolizes those outside of Abraham’s inheritance or Gentiles. This makes sense when you consider who Jesus was talking with and who was upset by it in Luke 15. It also fits in with the other parables dealing with who was lost and what real value is.

One other aspect to look at is, does this story make sense if it reveals an actual event?

Is being wealthy and well dressed a sin deserving Hell?
Is being thrown into the street, being poor, and begging a virtue worthy of Heaven?
If Lazarus ascended into heaven, then doesn’t that contradict Jesus saying that no man has ascended in to heaven in John 3:13?
How many people could actually fit in Abraham’s bosom?
Is the torments the rich man is feeling, physical? If so, how does he see through the flames? People on fire close their eyes. How does the rich man talk coherently about saving his brothers or being tormented, or wanting water from Lazarus’s finger tip? If you are burning up, what good is moisture on the tip of a finger? Why not cry to have your skin or eyes drenched?
Why does the rich man go to hell without a day in court?
How does the rich man recognize Abraham? If the rich man recognizes Abraham how would he have “heard” Moses (who lived hundreds of years after Abraham)?

When you look at the totality of actual events would be like and the context of the story, it becomes clear that it is a parable telling of value and the fallen state of Abraham’s descendants.

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