Posted on 04/20/2009 5:26:00 PM PDT by DouglasKC
And to you..
I invite you to look at Isa 1:4, 9:2, 26:2, and 49:7 and realize that in all of them the author(s) used the word gowy, meaning a nation, a tribe. In context of the usage of the Old Testament (re: Genesis 12:2, 35:11, as well as Psalms 33:12) it is always in reference to Israel. In plural, goyim, such as in Neh 5:8, and numerous Psalms (2:1, 2:8, 2:9, 9:16, 9:20, 9:21, 10:16, 59:6...etc) it is understood to mean nations besides Israel, and specifically inimical to Israel.
To interpret Isa 42:6, or Luke 2:32 for that matter, which you also provide, as meaning Gentiles is in direct contradiction of the OT understanding of the word, as well as of the explicit statements found in Mat 15:24 ("I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel").
Jesus tells us unambiguously why he was sent, and he leaves no doubt where his disciples should go: only to the "lost sheep of Israel." He even given as very clear definition of who does not constitute the "lost sheep of Israel," re Mat 10:5-6 ("These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel"). In other words, not even Samaritans.
In addition to that, Luke in Acts 13:46 states unambiguously ""We had to speak the word of God to you [i.e. the Jews] first. Since you reject it and do not consider yourselves worthy of eternal life, we now turn to the Gentiles." He doesn't say the Lord instructed us because the Lord instructed them to go only to the "lost sheep of Israel." But since Israel turned against the Church, the quest for Gentiles was an afterthought the Lord never mentioned, preached or instructed.
As for Ephesians, that is not Jesus speaking, but Paul selling the Church to the Greeks (and doing a good job!). Of course, beginning with Acts and the rest fo the NT, the whole focus is on the universality of Christ's ministry, a completely new, post-Jesuite choreogrfaphy.
Drawing a parallel between me and Satan? How charitable of you. Why would Satan appear without a disguise so that everyone can see the enemy? No, Satan is more likely to disguise as an angel of light (cf 2 Cor 11:14). Perhaps you should beware those who preach what you like to hear.
Well, I am quite certain that the “religion” forum IS not reserved that way, but this thread was specifically about the Commandments of Moses and, I repeat, I do not know why you are posting on this thread
I am posting on it because I find something worth commenting on. As for the the thread being specifically about something, the Religion Forum rules provide for restricted threads, and this one is not restricted. One is under no obligation to stick to the title of the thread in order to post comments on collateral statements of various posters.
As for the “heat in the kitchen,” you went running to the “mama” moderator, what can I say?
You could say "thank you" because I was doing you a favor. Unbridled personal salvos will get you banned. Personally, I don't get offended by other people's offensive remarks, or unsubstantiated personal accusations, but the Moderator actually reads all posts and is very consistent and principled when it comes to such issues.
You do not believe the Trinity, sir, and really should be more forthright
Here you go again, reading my mind, actually telling me what I believe. That is also an ad hominem. Perhaps you'd be better off reading Religion Moderator rules, as he suggested.
I guess the correct answer is "so?" Gentiles join themselves to Israel by their acceptance of the new covenant with Christ. This has always been so:
Isa 56:6 Also the sons of the stranger, that join themselves to the LORD, to serve him, and to love the name of the LORD, to be his servants, every one that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and taketh hold of my covenant;
It's not goy or goyim, but nekar. Compare also:
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Exo 12:49 One law shall be to him that is homeborn, and unto the stranger that sojourneth among you.
A different word is used here, geyr, but the meaning is still clear. Gentiles, strangers, those not of Israel, have always been invited to worship the one true God along with Israel.
Jesus tells us unambiguously why he was sent, and he leaves no doubt where his disciples should go: only to the "lost sheep of Israel." He even given as very clear definition of who does not constitute the "lost sheep of Israel," re Mat 10:5-6 ("These twelve Jesus sent out with the following instructions: "Do not go among the Gentiles or enter any town of the Samaritans. Go rather to the lost sheep of Israel"). In other words, not even Samaritans.
But later:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
"Nations" is "ethnos". It's the same word here translated gentiles:
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles, and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
So I guess I don't see your point.
Well, the last part of the chapter ID instructions for making the Tabernacle. However, the plain meaning of the text is “ALL the congregation” and “ANY of your dwellings.
Exodus 35
1Then Moses assembled all the congregation of the sons of Israel, and said to them, "(A)These are the things that the LORD has commanded you to do:
2"(B)For six days work may be done, but on the seventh day you shall have a holy day, (C)a sabbath of complete rest to the LORD; (D)whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.
3"(E)You shall not kindle a fire in any of your dwellings on the sabbath day."Considering that the rest of the chapter was about what “the whole congregation” was asked to do, and what the “whole congregation” actually DID; it is reasonable to conclude that “in any of your dwellings” meant “all the congregation."
DG
If I understand your theological position correctly (and I may not) you hold that:
Some activities are exempt from (apparent) Sabbath law:
Doing good
healing
saving a life
harvesting grain(maybe)
Some people are exempt from Sabbath law:
Priests
David and his soldiers
desciples of Yeshua
If I am misstating your position, please let me know.
DG
Read my profile. Now go away. Please.
Gal 3:17 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.If the Law came first, would it supercede the promise?
Rom 5:13-14 (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law. Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.Why did the people from Adam to Moses die when no sin was imputed?
That explains everything. Sorry I overestomated you.
Christians are not Israel; that is something Paul invented. Strangers who lived by the Law (Noahites) were privileged by the Jews, but they were not considered Jews. They were also not considered the goyim, the pagan infidels.
Mat 28:19...
There is no reason to believe that ethnos means anything other than tribes and that in the context of the OT and the Jesus' own mission statement (to the lost sheep of Israel) the ethnos was intended for the 12 tribes and not the whole world. The word ethnos is certianly used in LXX to mean Jews as well as non-Jews and must be understood in the context.
BTW, Christian references (Esebius, Syrian sources, etc.) to Mat 28:19 prior to the First Ecumenical Council (321 AD) do not contain any reference to the Father, Son or the Holy Ghost. They just say "in my name." In fact, Eusebius quotes it no less than 17 times. The NT also verifies that baptisms were made in Jesus' name and not in the name of the Trinity.
The Trinitarian reference followong the Nicene Council is obviously a latter-day redaction, or corruption if you will, of the original text.
So I guess I don't see your point
The point is: (1) Anyone who wanted to become Jewish could convert. (2) Anyone who wnated to live by the Law was no longer considered a "Gentile". (3) In the context ot the OT and Jesus' mission statement, ethnos means tribes and refers specifically to the 12 tribes of Israel (remember, Jesus picked 12 apostles to judge the 12 tribes of Israel!). (4) Christians are not Israel, even though they want to be, the way the LDS are not Christians even though they call themsleves Christinas.
God may have finally realized that he had to etch them in stone to keep his willful creation (man) from making creative corrections, mistakes, and omissions as the laws were transcribed forward...
Not from apparent sabbath law, but from the Jewish interpretation of sabbath law.
Some people are exempt from Sabbath law: 1.Priests2. David and his soldiers 3. desciples of Yeshua
Nobody is exempt, but the point Jesus made was that priests on the sabbath did a lot of "work" and were blameless...i.e. God didn't consider them to be sabbath violators...because it was in service to God.
So the principle is that serving God or serving others isn't the kind of work that God intended to be ceased on his sabbath. When Jesus healed on the sabbath it was a service.
When I became a sabbath keeper the hardest thing to do was to shake the idea that the Jewish religions definitions were THE definition. When scripture is examined in the light of what Jesus taught and what the ot actually says, it becomes clear that the Jewish religion had wandered away from the teachings at some point.
It’s a good point. I also think it’s why early Christians developed the creed as well since so many groups were evolving into what was NOT the truth.
Are you certain, I found many references to that passage
Tertullian, c. 200 AD (On Baptism, Chapter XIII): "For the law of baptizing has been imposed, and the formula prescribed: "Go," He saith, "teach the nations, baptizing them into the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit." and in Against Praxeas, chapter 2 says, "After His resurrection ..He commands them to baptize into the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost".
Hippolytus (170-236 AD)(Fragments: Part II.-Dogmatical and Historical.--Against the Heresy of One Noetus,) "gave this charge to the disciples after He rose from the dead: Go ye and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."
Cyprian (200-258AD) in The Seventh Council of Carthage Under Cyprian says,' And again, after His resurrection, sending His apostles, He gave them charge, saying, "All power is given unto me, in heaven and in earth. Go and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost."'
Gregory Thaumaturgus (205-265 AD) in A Sectional Confession of Faith, XIII "....the Lord sends forth His disciples to baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit?"
The Epistle of Ignatius to the Philippians (considered to be spurrious-but dates from the later half of second century), in Chapter 2 says, Wherefore also the Lord, when He sent forth the apostles to make disciples of all nations, commanded them to "baptize in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost....".
Not sure the purpose of your claim, but it seems light on the research.
The verses I posted explicitly stated that the Sabbath LAW was direct from God, not their “interpretation.”
A further, instructive example:
Numbers 15
15'As for the assembly, there shall be (I)one statute for you and for the alien who sojourns with you, a perpetual statute throughout your generations; as you are, so shall the alien be before the LORD.
...
32Now while the sons of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man (X)gathering wood on the sabbath day.
33Those who found him gathering wood brought him to Moses and Aaron and to all the congregation;
34and they put him in custody (Y)because it had not been declared what should be done to him.
35Then the LORD said to Moses, "The man shall surely be put to death; (Z)all the congregation shall stone him with stones outside the camp."
36So all the congregation brought him outside the camp and stoned him to death with stones, just as the LORD had commanded Moses.
DG
***I have no idea what you are talking about (i.e. True Christianity (r) store).***
That is apparent. Look, reading your posts, I’d say that you are preaching from a package that you bought lock stock and barrel from some tent preacher dude or some slick televangelist or some mallfront mouthpiece that caught your ear.
***Snicker all you want. It is quite apparent that you do not want to communicate where there is a sender and receiver.***
Communication is two way; it also requires context and understanding. Just because a one horse town has one preacher doesn’t mean that that preacher is even really Christian.
Think and project all you want but don’t post me anymore.
***Read my profile
That explains everything. Sorry I overestomated you.***
I can’t hear you, la, la, la, la.
***Think and project all you want but don’t post me anymore.***
Hardly a Christian statement. But then again, if one doesn’t have the Number 3247 package of Christian Beliefs (tm) with the teriyaki sauce and side of moo shu pork, then one obviously does not have the secret of True Salvation (tm).
How much is your Number 3247 package costing you on a monthly basis if you don’t mind me asking?
Well this subject has played out already. I don't think Paul made things up. I think he was taught by Christ.
Strangers who lived by the Law (Noahites) were privileged by the Jews, but they were not considered Jews. They were also not considered the goyim, the pagan infidels.
What time frame are you referring to?
When God brought Israel out of Egypt he had this to say:
Exo 12:48 And when a stranger shall sojourn with thee, and will keep the passover to the LORD, let all his males be circumcised, and then let him come near and keep it; and he shall be as one that is born in the land: for no uncircumcised person shall eat thereof.
Lev 19:33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him.
Lev 19:34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.
God didn't want there to be a difference between those who joined themselves to Israelites and native born Israelites.
Mat 28:19... There is no reason to believe that ethnos means anything other than tribes and that in the context of the OT and the Jesus' own mission statement (to the lost sheep of Israel) the ethnos was intended for the 12 tribes and not the whole world. The word ethnos is certianly used in LXX to mean Jews as well as non-Jews and must be understood in the context.
Well that's not fair. You can't use this verse to support your argument that Jesus never commanded to preach to the gentiles:
Mat 10:5 These twelve Jesus sent forth, and commanded them, saying, Go not into the way of the Gentiles(ethnos), and into any city of the Samaritans enter ye not:
And then deny this quote which uses the exact same word, ethnos:
Mat 28:19 Go ye therefore, and teach all nations (ethnos), baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:
The Trinitarian reference followong the Nicene Council is obviously a latter-day redaction, or corruption if you will, of the original text.
It could be, but even if not the statement is a statement about baptism, not the Godhead. It's a baptismal formula.
The point is: (1) Anyone who wanted to become Jewish could convert.
The Jews made this process much harder than God originally intended.
(2) Anyone who wnated to live by the Law was no longer considered a "Gentile".
True, they were considered native born.
(3) In the context ot the OT and Jesus' mission statement, ethnos means tribes and refers specifically to the 12 tribes of Israel (remember, Jesus picked 12 apostles to judge the 12 tribes of Israel!).
We are not going to agree on this.
(4) Christians are not Israel, even though they want to be, the way the LDS are not Christians even though they call themsleves Christinas.
We aren't going to agree on this either. I believe Paul in scripture when he says that anyone can partake of the promises made to Israel through Jesus Christ.
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