Old Calvinism is Now the New Calvinism

We do look at things very differently. The Tribulation period is the time God pours out His wrath upon the earth. The church is not subject to wrath. Scripture says that it will be like the days of Noah and Lot when the Lord comes. That’s a hint. What did He do with Noah and Lot? He did not protect them while they sat in the middle of wickedness. He removed them from the wickedness and then sent the judgment. There is a time where the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. You see it in Romans and in Luke. After that time, the Jews [used generically of all Israel] will be saved. The way they are saved is through His supernatural work in their lives during the great tribulation - a time that does not apply to the church, who is gone. Jews saved prior to that will be raptured with the church.

Over and over again, in Scripture, we see the promise that after many years God would bring His people back into their land. We saw that in 1948. That was a smack you in the face and open your eyes moment. That was fulfilled prophecy.

God is not done with national Israel (who has but one nation to leave in any real numbers - namely America). They will come to know Him, but they will go through a time of trouble like they have never seen. It will be horrible, but the remnant will prevail.

We do look at things very differently. The Tribulation period is the time God pours out His wrath upon the earth. The church is not subject to wrath. Scripture says that it will be like the days of Noah and Lot when the Lord comes. That’s a hint. What did He do with Noah and Lot? He did not protect them while they sat in the middle of wickedness. He removed them from the wickedness and then sent the judgment. There is a time where the fulness of the Gentiles comes in. You see it in Romans and in Luke. After that time, the Jews [used generically of all Israel] will be saved. The way they are saved is through His supernatural work in their lives during the great tribulation - a time that does not apply to the church, who is gone. Jews saved prior to that will be raptured with the church.

I know that is often taught Blogger...but that is not what is written. There is a marked difference in the tribulation and God's wrath. They are two different events for the tribulation (affliction) is that of Satan's deception...unbelievable deception, while God's wrath follows that time but only on those that fall for his lies or...take the mark. Those that don't fall for his deceit and wait for the true Savior are protected.

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.

13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

13:27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Revelation 14:9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, "If any man worship the beast, and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand, The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb.

Satan is coming to make war with the saints, with God's elect, so (they/we) have to be here for that to happen.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

The tribulation is the time of Jacob's trouble and we will experience it for he wants our souls but...they belong to God. We will stand. The testimony of the Holy Spirit through His elect, His witnesses, is what will seal the truth in the foreheads (minds) of His children...the misled Christians and Jews. [Mark 13:9-11] Before the cup of wrath is poured those that will...will believe and follow Him.

I know that is often taught Blogger...but that is not what is written.

That IS what is written!!!!! You all accuse us of going with our teachers and frankly that is insulting. I very rarely consult the prophecy scholars on anything. And when I do, I am not bound to accept what they say.

There is a marked difference in the tribulation and God's wrath.
There is a marked difference in TRIBULATION not the tribulation. Normal tribulation and trials we will go through. We are promised that. THE Tribulation is another story. We will not be in THE Tribulation, for THE Tribulation is the day in which God's wrath is poured out upon the earth.

They are two different events for the tribulation (affliction) is that of Satan's deception...unbelievable deception,
That God's children will not be fooled by.

while God's wrath follows that time but only on those that fall for his lies or...take the mark. Those that don't fall for his deceit and wait for the true Savior are protected.

Then you have a works salvation. The fact of the matter is after the church is out of here, there will be folks saved in the Tribulation. We refer to them as tribulation saints. They are saved the same way as anyone else, but you can recognize them as the ones who didn't take the mark. I also think there is a bit of a warning in there for the lost who will remain lost. They will not be able to stand before God and say 'we didn't know.'

Mark 13:19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be. 13:24-26 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken. And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.13:27 And then shall He send His angels, and shall gather together His elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.

Who is Jesus speaking to in Mark 13? He is not speaking to the Gentile church. He is speaking to His Jewish disciples in Israel. He gives references that would have been very important to them...14But when ye shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet standing where it ought not, (let him that readeth understand,) then let them that be in Judaea flee to the mountains...
The parallel passage to this is Matthew 24.
15When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand:) 16Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains: 17Let him which is on the housetop not come down to take any thing out of his house: 18Neither let him which is in the field return back to take his clothes. 19And woe unto them that are with child, and to them that give suck in those days! 20But pray ye that your flight be not in the winter, neither on the sabbath day: 21For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be. 22And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.
It is very clear he is referring to the Jewish Remnant. They are in Judea. They see the temple desecrated. Pray that it is not on the Sabbath. These are Jewish believers that will be saved after the fullness of Gentiles comes in.

Satan is coming to make war with the saints, with God's elect, so (they/we) have to be here for that to happen.

No. There are many who are saved in the Tribulation, including but not limited to the Jewish Remnant. Those are the ones who come through great tribulation.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
The woman is Israel. Her seed is the tribes of Israel, though the Messiah she brought forth is Christ.

The tribulation is the time of Jacob's trouble
If that is the case, why do we not see the reference to Jacob's trouble in the New Testament??? We see it in Jeremiah, where Jeremiah is writing to his Jewish audience, but nowhere in the New Testament do you hear of the church being referred to as "Jacob".

Applied to Israel and the Church, the promises were Israel's. Israel was God's peculiar people

This is a claim of the dispensational system, not the Bible.

Paul makes it quite clear to whom the promises were made:

"Now to Abraham and his Seed were the promises made. He does not say, ‘And to seeds,’ as of many, but as of one, ‘And to your Seed,’ who is Christ." (Gal. 3:16)

Who is “the Seed” wrt all the promises of God? It is Jesus Christ, not Israel after the flesh. To whom were these promises made? To Jesus Christ, not Israel after the flesh. Who benefits from the promises made to Abraham and his Seed? Well, that would be the children of Abraham. And who are the true children of Abraham? That would be all those who have faith in Jesus Christ.

"There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus. And if you are Christ's, then you are Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise." (Gal. 3:28,20)

We are Abraham’s seed by virtue of our faith in Christ, Jews and gentiles alike and without distinction for the purposes of salvation and the promises. How many from Israel after the flesh will actually benefit from these promises is known only to God. But we know that “all Israel” ultimately will be saved. God’s election it sure.

"But it is not that the word of God has taken no effect. For they are not all Israel who are of Israel, nor are they all children because they are the seed of Abraham; but, ‘In Isaac your seed shall be called.’" (Rom. 9:6,7)

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God. " (Rom. 2:28,29)

"For we are the circumcision, who worship God in the Spirit, rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh" (Phil. 3:3)

I realize this does not fit with The System®, and I do not accept The System® as anywhere near being biblical in this particular matter, but what I have outlined is logically and exegetically consistent with the Bible, which is all that counts.

Whether this aligns with notions of “all men are created equal” from the DoI is immaterial. The Bible is its own interpreter.

Within the context of the letter to a church that was concerned about the church's dead, Paul was explaining that they are with Christ and would come with Him when He comes for His church.

So, would you argue that Abraham, et al are not asleep in Christ? Where are Abraham, et al right now wrt Jesus Christ being seated at the right hand of the Father? Are they in Christ’s presence, or not? Do their souls get Left Behind® in heaven when Jesus comes for the Church at the futurist “rapture”?

Why don't you just explain the passage according to your system and not worry what about what I am thinking?

1 "At that time Michael shall stand up, The great prince who stands watch over the sons of your people; And there shall be a time of trouble, Such as never was since there was a nation, Even to that time. And at that time your people shall be delivered, Every one who is found written in the book. 2 And many of those who sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, Some to everlasting life, Some to shame and everlasting contempt. 3 Those who are wise shall shine Like the brightness of the firmament, And those who turn many to righteousness Like the stars forever and ever.

I do not need a system to see that straight forward intent of the passage. The remnant of Israel will be preserved through a tribulation that is to come (v. 1). It also indicates that there will be (but one) future resurrection of the dead, the righteous to “everlasting life” and the unrighteous to “everlasting contempt” (v. 2, cf. Acts 24:15). The exact timing of this tribulation period wrt the resurrection is undeterminable from this text or its context. Michael stands as one who represents and protects God’s people.

Now, to my question. What relevance does this have to the The System® and the alleged separation in time between “the rapture” and the Second Coming?

I have no problem with saying the Old Testament Saints are raised at the rapture. Scripture says the dead in Christ. These men, by faith, were in Christ.

I can’t fault them for believing it since they have already swallowed the dispensational line. The Church didn’t start until Pentecost (or sometime thereafter for the hypers). The Church was unknown in the OT (to Abraham, et al). How can Abraham, et al be part of something that didn’t exist and was unknowable to them? How could the father of the Jewish nation (Israel) or the giver of the Jewish law at Sinai or the king of ancient Israel be counted among the membership of the Church?

It is dispensationally inconceivable.

That IS what is written!!!!! You all accuse us of going with our teachers and frankly that is insulting. I very rarely consult the prophecy scholars on anything. And when I do, I am not bound to accept what they say.

I would guess that the vast majority of believers easily accept what is taught. Why? Because we are a trusting people that love God. We are easy prey for the ravening wolves because of that love and trust.

There is a marked difference in TRIBULATION not the tribulation. Normal tribulation and trials we will go through. We are promised that. THE Tribulation is another story. We will not be in THE Tribulation, for THE Tribulation is the day in which God's wrath is poured out upon the ear.

But that isn't what is written. Look at those verses again for He first mentions....the tribulation of those days (the last days)which is the subject of the chapter and then IMMEDIATELY AFTER the tribulation of those days (the same tribulation and same days)....He arrives. When He arrives those that didn't take the mark are gathered and then....the wrath is spilled.

Ping - They are two different events for the tribulation (affliction) is that of Satan's deception...unbelievable deception,

Blogger - That God's children will not be fooled by

Many will fall for they are already deceived.

Revelation 12:9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

11 Thessalonians 2:7 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. (2:11) And for this cause God shall send them srong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Who is Jesus speaking to in Mark 13? He is not speaking to the Gentile church. He is speaking to His Jewish disciples in Israel. He gives references that would have been very important to them

It is very clear he is referring to the Jewish Remnant. They are in Judea. They see the temple desecrated. Pray that it is not on the Sabbath. These are Jewish believers that will be saved after the fullness of Gentiles comes in.

His words are to all of us Blogger for we too are His disciples. They are about the end of this world age and concern all of us. The epicenter of events will be in Judaea. Remember He sent His disciples to the lost sheep of the house of Israel [Matthew 10:6] and He Himself....

Matthew 15:24 But He answered and said, "I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel."

The house of Israel are not Jews but are Christians. In other words...He was sent to us so His Words are for us.

No. There are many who are saved in the Tribulation, including but not limited to the Jewish Remnant. Those are the ones who come through great tribulation.

Everyone will go through the tribulation...Jew, Christian, Gentile, elect and non-elect, believers and non-believers. It is a tribulation of great deception. The elect will stand...the rest will fall but when the elect fulfill their destiny and allow the Holy Spirit to speak through them [Mark 13:9-11] many will see and hear that truth and will be sealed. Then the witnesses are killed.

The woman is Israel. Her seed is the tribes of Israel, though the Messiah she brought forth is Christ.

Yes. But this is where we started. We, as believers, are either of the tribes or are adopted into the tribes. All are one in the body of Christ.

Ping - The tribulation is the time of Jacob's trouble

Blogger - If that is the case, why do we not see the reference to Jacob's trouble in the New Testament??? We see it in Jeremiah, where Jeremiah is writing to his Jewish audience, but nowhere in the New Testament do you hear of the church being referred to as "Jacob".

Jacob became Israel so the names are both used. Too, Jeremiah also writes to the house of Israel [2:4,3:20 etc.] and that house never returned to Jerusalem. Instead Christ was sent to them and they carry His name today.

So, would you say that those who deny that the OT saints are present at the rapture are doing so because The System® (the radical distinction between the Church and Israel) forces them to that conclusion? After all, their position does seem consistent with dispensationalism in general.
No, I wouldn't say that. And you're contradicting yourself in this sentence.

I can’t fault them for believing it since they have already swallowed the dispensational line.
Don't be disingenous. You already have faulted them.

The Church didn’t start until Pentecost (or sometime thereafter for the hypers).
The Church AGE started then. Not the church.

The Church was unknown in the OT (to Abraham, et al). How can Abraham, et al be part of something that didn’t exist and was unknowable to them?
They were part of Israel. The church was grafted into Israel. We became a part of them, they didn't become a part of us.

How could the father of the Jewish nation (Israel) or the giver of the Jewish law at Sinai or the king of ancient Israel be counted among the membership of the Church?
He is counted as part of the dead in Christ. I don't know of Scripture that says Abraham was part of the church. There are guests at the wedding.

It is dispensationally inconceivable.
It isn't dispensationalism.

“So, would you argue that Abraham, et al are not asleep in Christ?”

Abraham and the Old Testament saints are in heaven with Christ. They will be resurrected along with the tribulation saints at the second coming of Christ as Daniel prophesied in Daniel 12:2-3.

“What relevance does this have to the The System® and the alleged separation in time between “the rapture” and the Second Coming?”

You are right that “thy people” refers to Israel. Daniel’s visions and prophecy in chapts. 7-12 concern the future of Israel; the church is not mentioned. However, there is a “gap” in the time line in Daniel 9:26 after Jesus’ triumphal entry. The prophetic clock stops until the last week, vs 27 and in 11:36-12:3, the tribulation period.

The tribulation period is a time of punishment for unbelieving nations, but more importantly, as Daniel’s prophesies demonstrate, it is a time when God will deal with Israel to bring the remnant to saving faith in Messiah. The resurrection Daniel refers to concerns Israel and tribulation saints who are wise and instruct others. The resurrection of the unbelievers will take place after the millennium during the Great White Throne judgment(Rev. 20) when the “dead” are judged, not the living. The Daniel passage does not say that the two resurrections take place at the same time.

See, in the Optimistic Replacement System (ORS for short), one has to gradually morph the “thy people” into the church or an ambiguous “God’s people” in order to read the straight forward intent of the passage into the ORS.

Don't be disingenous. You already have faulted them.

I don’t fault them for being consistent. That was my point. Of course I fault there fundamentally errant views.

The Church AGE started then. Not the church.

Hmmm, seems to be a bit of a disagreement here with The System®.

The Church is something new that God is doing. Moses and Joshua and David and Isaiah were saved men and were Israelites but they were not part of the church. In Ephesians 1:22-23 and Colossians 1:18 we learn that the CHURCH is the body of Christ. Today when a person is saved he is “baptized” or placed into the body of Christ and he becomes a part of the Church (1 Corinthians 12:13). Peter and John and Paul and Timothy were all members of the body of Christ. They were all part of the Church. Those who believe in Christ today become part of the Church also.
Dispensationalists teach that the Church is a unique body of believers that began on the day of Pentecost and will be removed from earth on the day that Christ comes for His own (the rapture). It is made up of both Jews and Gentiles united together into one body and enjoying equal status in the body of Christ (Eph. 3:5-6). This is the “one new man” of Ephesians 2:15 and the “one fold” of John 10:16. (George Zeller, Middletown Bible Church)

According to the Dictionary of Premillennial Theology by Mal Couch, the Church “consists of those believing Jews and gentiles baptized into the body of Christ (1 Cor. 12:13).” That excludes Abraham and Moses.

The idea of “Church age” vs. “Church” that you are attempting to make is a distinction without a difference. No dispensationalist author that I can find makes that distinction. No OT saint is ever spoken of as being in the Church. The only folks who even hint at what you are suggesting are the progressive dispensationalists. But we all know they are just pilgrims on the road to covenant theology anyway.

“It is dispensationally inconceivable.”

It isn't dispensationalism.

It is according to everybody whose anybody in The System®.

I personally like what you are saying, but it is not dispensationalism ala Chafer, Ryrie, and Walvoord.

“How can Abraham, et al be part of something that didn’t exist and was unknowable to them? How could the father of the Jewish nation (Israel) or the giver of the Jewish law at Sinai or the king of ancient Israel be counted among the membership of the Church?”

He can’t be and Jesus says he won’t be,

Mat 19:28 And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Luk 22:30 That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

The writer of Hebrews separates Israel from the church this way, Heb. 11:39-40, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

“It is dispensationally inconceivable” only to the OPS (Optimistic Replacement System).

Abraham and the Old Testament saints are in heaven with Christ. They will be resurrected along with the tribulation saints at the second coming of Christ as Daniel prophesied in Daniel 12:2-3.

So they do get Left Behind® when Jesus and the NT saints leave for the rapture, is that it?

However, there is a “gap” in the time line in Daniel 9:26 after Jesus’ triumphal entry. The prophetic clock stops until the last week, vs 27 and in 11:36-12:3, the tribulation period.

Are we talking about The System®? I see no gap anywhere in Daniel.

The Daniel passage does not say that the two resurrections take place at the same time.

That is because Daniel only speaks in terms of one resurrection. It is The System® that requires two, not the prophets of God.

But I see the bottom line here is that Daniel does not in any way confirm the futurist view of a rapture separate in time from the Second Coming. That’s all I needed to clarify.

He can’t be and Jesus says he won’t be,

Only according to the slice and dice approach to the Bible engendered by The System®. They verses you cited say nothing about this issue.

The writer of Hebrews separates Israel from the church this way, Heb. 11:39-40, “And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.”

Here’s a somewhat more readable translation:

39 And all these, having obtained a good testimony through faith, did not receive the promise, 40 God having provided something better for us, that they should not be made perfect apart from us.

What separation? I see no separation. It speaks rather of the unity of the all the faithful, “that they should not be made perfect apart from us”.

But, what is the promise related to that is spoken of here? Let’s read this in context:

9 By faith he dwelt in the land of promise as in a foreign country, dwelling in tents with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise; 10 for he waited for the city which has foundations, whose builder and maker is God. … 13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off were assured of them, embraced them and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. … 16 But now they desire a better, that is, a heavenly country. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God, for He has prepared a city for them.

The promise to Abraham and his seed was always of the heavenly city, the new Jerusalem. Abraham’s true children desire the same thing as Abraham. Any desire to return to the carnality of old, earthly Jerusalem is a basic denial of the fatherhood of Abraham. This true desire for the heavenly is what separates the remnant of Israel from the rest. In you continue on reading in Hebrews 12, you will see this spiritual reality of the new Jerusalem/heavenly Mount Zion expressed there.

They were part of Israel. The church was grafted into Israel. We became a part of them, they didn't become a part of us.

Let me just point out the confusing ideas in this statement.

“They were part of Israel.” {That may be OK. Whether Abraham was part of Israel per se or not is debatable. He was the father of many nations, including Israel, but he was justified while uncircumcised, a gentile. But I think I get what you mean. They were also part of the remnant of Israel destined for eternal life. Spiritual Israel.}

“The church was grafted into Israel.” {The Church was not gathered into Israel, gentiles were grafted in, along with the natural branches that believed the promises of Messiah. The result of the grafting was the Church, the new Israel.}

“We became a part of them, they didn't become a part of us.” {We who? If you mean gentiles, it is true that the wild branches got grafted in along with natural ones to form the Church. But the Church is not “gentile”. “There is neither Jew nor greek” in the Church. }

I can understand how difficult it must be to keep all the concepts required by The System® straight in one’s mind. It’s easy to get sloppy with concepts and language, esp. when so much of it is invented out of whole cloth and only marginally looks like what is found in the Bible. Rather than appreciating the simplicity of God’s program for His people, the dispensationalist is forced into all sorts of mental gymnastics trying to keep together timelines with gaps here and there, catching up vs. appearing, heavenly vs. earthly, who’s in and who’s out, who’s a Jew vs. who’s a greek, etc.

“Whether Abraham was part of Israel per se or not is debatable.
I will give you that. He was part of the Old Testament Saints- in Christ.

He was the father of many nations, including Israel, but he was justified while uncircumcised, a gentile. But I think I get what you mean. They were also part of the remnant of Israel destined for eternal life. Spiritual Israel.}
I can go with that. And yes, he was part of the Remnant of Israel, some of which have yet to be saved and many of which won't be saved until the Tribulation period.

“The church was grafted into Israel.” {The Church was not gathered into Israel, gentiles were grafted in, along with the natural branches that believed the promises of Messiah. The result of the grafting was the Church, the new Israel.}
You're playing semantics here. The Olive Tree was Israel's, not the church's. The Olive Tree remained the Olive Tree They are the natural branches. We were grafted into the Olive tree, but it is still THEIR Olive Tree. The end result is NOT the church. The end result is an Olive tree with natural and unnatural branches in it, distinguished as ISRAEL versus the mostly Gentile Church.

24For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? 25For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
“We became a part of them, they didn't become a part of us.” {We who? If you mean gentiles, it is true that the wild branches got grafted in along with natural ones to form the Church. But the Church is not “gentile”. “There is neither Jew nor greek” in the Church. }
WRONG WRONG WRONG! Both of us were grafted into Israel's tree. You are trying to make a brand new Tree come about due to the church's inclusion in the grafting. The Olive tree remained an Olive tree. It just pruned away some branches and grafted in others. The tree is the same, which is Christ. But is THEIR Messiah. He became our Messiah, but nothing changes the fact that he was is and shall be their Messiah first.

I can understand
Nothing.

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