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The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]
Lamb & Lion Ministries ^ | Dr. David Reagan

Posted on 03/18/2009 10:27:27 PM PDT by Star Traveler

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To: GiovannaNicoletta
Is that Passover of 2012 the 2012 of the Hebrew calendar or the Gregorian calendar?

Gregorian.

The Hebrew year would be 5772.

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach
481 posted on 03/02/2010 2:56:20 PM PST by Uri’el-2012 (Psalm 119:174 I long for Your salvation, YHvH, Your law is my delight.)
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To: Countyline
You were saying ...

I must not understand the point of the thread after all.

And what you said about the Gospel message and growing in the image of Christ and those other things are good in and of themselves. And even though we all have these things in mind at all times (as we should), it's not the point of this thread...

The point of the thread is a simple one -- and that simple point does not detract from the main message of the Bible, but supports it -- which is the Salvation that we all have in Christ, and as we tell it to the world, in the Gospel message of the Bible.

It's simply to talk to one another about the Rapture without getting hammered by others (as happens on open threads) -- in which these "others" deny it, deny the Scriptural support of it and deny even all future prophecies of the Bible related to Israel and of the coming 1,000 year reign of the Messiah, right here on earth.

That's the simple point to the thread...

We can tell each other the "latest news" that we see in regards to the soon coming of the Lord for His own, in the Rapture. We can be enthused that it is right around the corner. We can discuss some finer points that usually get drowned out in the "cacophony of denial posts" in open threads, we can do what the Apostle Paul told us to do... which is not allowed elsewhere, on other threads...

1 Thessalonians Chapter 4

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who
have fallen asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope.

14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will
bring with Him those who sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are
alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede
those who are asleep.

16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the
voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in
Christ will rise first.

17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with
them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall
always be with the Lord.

18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.

That's the Rapture, that's the time we go to be with the Lord -- and then later, at the coming of the Lord to set up His one-world government -- we return with Him, to come back to this earth, and rule and reign with the Lord over all the nations of the world, during the Millennial Kingdom on this earth.

482 posted on 03/02/2010 5:48:44 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: UriÂ’el-2012; left that other site

Awesome - thank you for the ping ML - and for the post Uriel.

Hallelujah!


483 posted on 03/03/2010 3:24:43 AM PST by Freedom'sWorthIt
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To: All
I'm going to remind people about the Pre-Trib Research Center, headed up by Dr. Thomas Ice, a real warrior for the Rapture teaching in the Bible. They've had an update in their webpage layouts and it's a good time to look it over again.

These members meet every year in Dallas and have a symposium and/or meeting and discuss various things about the Pre-Trib Rapture (and topics that associate with it) in a scholarly fashion.

This is an excellent resource for all those who engage in defending what the Bible teaches about the Rapture. There is much information given, in the list of articles, by the various members of the Pre-Trib Research Center. There is an embarassing wealth of information there.

Of course, not everything and every point and every paper is going to be something that all members agree with, across the board, but it is a scholarly discussion group, in support of the Biblical teaching of the Rapture and of Israel being distinct and separate from the church, and that Israel has a place with God, as a nation, forevermore.

Here is what they say are their beliefs ...



What We Believe

PTRC Mission Statement

The Pre-Trib Research Center is a "think tank" committed to the study, proclamation, teaching and defending of the Pretribulational Rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.

PTRC Doctrinal Statement

We believe that the sixty-six, canonical books of the Old and New Testaments, alone and in their entirety, comprise the God-inspired Scriptures which, therefore, are inerrant in their autographs.

We believe the Bible should be interpreted normally, as with any other piece of sane literature, by a consistently literal hermeneutic which recognizes the clear usage of speech figures.

We believe that Christ will literally rapture His church prior to the 70th week of Daniel, followed by His glorious, premillennial arrival on the earth at least seven years later to set up His 1,000 year kingdom rule from Jerusalem over the earth.

We believe that God's plan for history demands a consistent distinction between national Israel and the church which includes an ongoing plan for national, ethnic Israel that culminates in Christ's millennial kingdom.




What the Pre-Trib Research Center is About?

In 1991 Dr. Tim LaHaye became concerned about a perceived swaying from the pretribulational doctrine. In 1992 Dr. LaHaye released his book on the rapture: No Fear of the Storm from Multnomah Press. It was re-released in 1998 as Rapture Under Attack. In the process of preparing the first edition of his rapture book, Dr. LaHaye was impressed with the gatherings of the Albury Park and Powerscourt Conference in Britain during the late 1820s and early 1830s where leaders gathered to discuss issues relating to Bible prophecy. Dr. LaHaye contacted Dr. Thomas Ice and discussed the possibility of calling a similar meeting for December 1992. This meeting came about in Dallas with about 35 top prophecy scholars, authors, and populists participating in the three-day event. The group adopted the title of The Pre-Trib Study Group (PTSG). Dr. LaHaye was elected Chairman of the steering committee and Dr. Ice Vice Chairman.

At the next year's meeting, December 1993 in Dallas, The PTSG elected Dr. Ice to become full-time Executive Director of the newly formed Pre-Trib Research Center (PTRC). The PTRC was conceived by Dr. LaHaye for the purpose of encouraging the research, teaching, propagation, and defense of the pretribulational rapture and related Bible prophecy doctrines. PTRC began functioning in the offices of Dr. LaHaye's Family Life Seminars in Washington, D.C. in March 1994. PTRC has sponsored the annual PTSG meeting in December of each year and just completed its seventh such meeting in 1999.

The Pre-Trib Research Center has over 200 members in association with its efforts. Most of the top prophecy scholars, authors, and popularizes are members of the Center and Study Group. The association of these prophecy experts, which have been facilitated by the Pre-Trib organization, has contributed to the inspiration of dozens of books, articles, conferences, and events that express and defend the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy and the pre-trib rapture. PTRC and the Study Group have worked to bring together veteran prophecy experts to share their knowledge and encouragement concerning these matters to a younger generation of students and advocates. In this way the torch is being passed to a new generation.

Dr. LaHaye and Dr. Ice, along with others associated with PTRC, have produced an impressive amount of literature that further the cause of pretribulationism and the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy. The PTRC is also involved in speaking at prophecy conferences and churches, producing key audio tapes, and now with the advent of this Internet site, providing various materials here as well. PTRC has published over the years its monthly publication called the Pre-Trib Perspectives and has various other future goals.

PTRC wants to impact Pastors and individual Christians with the central role and importance that Bible prophecy, especially the any-moment possibility of the rapture, should play in the life of the church. Dr. LaHaye and PTRC stresses three practical implications that flow from the rapture teaching. The first implication of pretribulationism is that it leads to godly living in an unholy age. Next, this New Testament teaching promotes a strong emphasis upon evangelism of the lost. Finally, when believers come to understand this eternal perspective, it leads to a zeal for worldwide missions. This is why we at the PTRC are "looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus." (Titus 2:13)




Dr. Thomas Ice

Dr. Ice is Executive Director of The Pre-Trib Research Center and on faculty at Liberty University in Lynchburg, Virginia. He founded The Center in 1994 with Dr. Tim LaHaye to research, teach, and defend the pretribulational rapture and related Bible prophecy doctrines. The Center is currently located on the campus of Liberty University.

Dr. Ice has co-authored about 30 books, written hundreds of articles, and is a frequent conference speaker. He has served as a pastor for 15 years. Dr. Ice has a B.A. from Howard Payne University, a Th.M. from Dallas Theological Seminary, a Ph.D. from Tyndale Theological Seminary, and is a Doctoral Candidate at The University of Wales in Church History. Dr. Ice lives in Lynchburg, Virginia with his wife Janice. Two of their three boys are college graduates and the third is currently in college.


484 posted on 03/03/2010 10:02:38 AM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: jabchae; Luke21
You were asking ...

Can you tell me about any earlier books about the rapture?

I'm going to reference a great information resource for you, in regards to the Rapture. See my Post #484 ...

485 posted on 03/03/2010 10:11:41 AM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
Dr. Steve Austin live on the internet right now.
3-9-2010 8 pm

mms://207.176.211.204/deanbibleministries

486 posted on 03/09/2010 6:00:18 PM PST by smokingfrog (You can't ignore your boss and expect to keep your job... WWW.filipthishouse2010.com)
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To: Star Traveler; left that other site; UriÂ’el-2012
There's that Temple described in Ezekiel that will be built by the Messiah of Israel (not this one which will be built during the 7-year Tribulation, which will be the Third Temple). That Temple in Ezekiel will be the Fourth Temple, and it will have animal sacrifices, not for purposes of a temporary covering for sin, but for commemorating what Jesus, the Messiah of Israel did.

Do you have a Scriptural reference? I've always assumed that the 3rd Temple that is desecrated is used by Jesus Christ during the 1,000 yr reign.

487 posted on 03/09/2010 6:45:41 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
You were saying ...

Do you have a Scriptural reference? I've always assumed that the 3rd Temple that is desecrated is used by Jesus Christ during the 1,000 yr reign.

The mere size of Ezekiel's Temple would make it impossible for it to be on the Temple Mount. It's way bigger than the entire Temple Mount and if I remember correctly, I believe it's bigger than the city of Jerusalem. So, the size of it makes it impossible to be the same Temple as that one in the Tribulation and/or previous ones.

But, there are also discrepancies with Ezekiel's Temple and the previous ones that make it impossible to be one and the same, much less a future one, because they wouldn't be building the future one (in the Tribulation) differently than the ones they had before or using a different model.

Here's a paper by Randall Price, who is a very good resource to have for further information. His website is World of the Bible.



Ezekiel’s Prophecy of the Temple

By Randall Price

One of the most crucial texts for the futurist interpretation of prophecy concerning Israel is the vision of the prophet Ezekiel in chapters 40-48. In this text the prophet presents God’s instructions for the construction of a new Temple to be built as part of the promise of Israel’s divine restoration. The concern of the exiles, as exemplified by Daniel’s prayer, was for a literal rebuilding of both the city of Jerusalem and its Temple (Daniel 9:3-19). Ezekiel’s prophecy of the Temple, delivered to these exiles, should be interpreted in light of this literal concern. Recognizing that the Second Temple constructed by the Jewish remnant that returned from the Exile (538-515 B.C.) did not implement Ezekiel’s detailed plan, Futurism, therefore, interprets the literal fulfillment of this prophecy eschatologically with the erection of a restoration Temple in the earthly Millennial Kingdom. This text is crucial to futurism because if literal interpretation fails with respect to this prophecy, then there is no reason to insist on a literal interpretation of any Old Testament prophecy, including messianic prophecy, which is an inseparable part of the restoration prophecies.

Despite this caution, the symbolic interpretation of this portion of Ezekiel’s prophecy is the dominant view advanced by critical scholars and conservative non-futurists (historicists, preterists, idealists) based on their contention that prophetic visions employ apocalyptic language that uses the literary device of hyperbole (exaggerated speech) to convey idealistic or symbolic, rather than literal, concepts. Therefore, non-futurists explain that the reason why the builders of the Second Temple did not follow Ezekiel’s plans for the Temple was because the Jewish audience understood apocalyptic as symbolic rather than literal. However, the symbolic school of interpretation is divided on what this symbolism was intended to portray. Some interpreters believe it was meant to preserve the memory of the First Temple through an idealistic remembrance, others say it idealistically describes the Second Temple, which was constructed upon the Jews return to Judah after the Exile (538-515 B.C.), while others see it illustrating a spiritual ideal (God’s dwelling in holiness in the midst of His people) or a spiritual reality (heaven, the eternal state, the Church). It is necessary to evaluate the symbolic school’s interpretive theories of this pivotal text and compare it with the literal school’s interpretation, to determine whether the intended fulfillment is to be understood as timeless (idealistic), to have occurred in the past (with the First or Second Temples), or is reserved for the eschatological age (the Millennial Temple).

An Idealistic Remembrance of the First Temple

This view draws its support from the need of the returning exiles, some of whom wept when the foundation of the Second Temple was laid, because they had seen the greater grandeur of the First Temple, and others, who born in the Captivity, lacked such a reference point in the past and therefore shouted for joy (Ezra 3:12-13), to share a common historical memory. To satisfy this need, Ezekiel shared his priestly memories in order to preserve the historical heritage of the Temple and its services for a new generation and to comfort them with the message that God was with them as He had been in the past. This interpretation raises a number of textual and historical objections.

First, Ezekiel states that this vision was communicated during the Captivity, not after the Return (Ezekiel 40:1-2). If it was given in the Exile and was meant to unite the Israelites in a common memory of the past and assure them of God’s presence, it apparently failed in its purpose since the Israelites were divided in their reaction to the construction of the Second Temple. The argument that God’s message was only received, but not delivered, by the prophet in the Exile, cannot be sustained in view of Ezekiel 11:25 which states “Then I told the exiles all the things that the Lord had shown me.” Although this applies to the judgment section of the book, is it reasonable to assume the prophet would share only the bad news (the destruction of the First Temple), but not the good news (the prophetic promise of a restored Temple)? However, it is clear that Ezekiel did deliver his prophetic vision to the exilic community, for God’s command to him was to describe the plan of the Temple to a still unrepentant “house of Israel” who had “defiled My holy name by their abominations” (Ezekiel 43:8). In fact, the purpose of Ezekiel’s description of the plans for the Temple is so “they may be ashamed of their iniquities” (Ezekiel 43:10-11). This is in harmony with the judgment of the book in which Ezekiel is commanded to deliver his message to “the sons of Israel, to a rebellious people who have rebelled against Me” (Ezekiel 2:3-4). By contrast, those who had returned to Judah to rebuild the Temple displayed repentance (Ezra 1:5; Haggai 1:12; Zechariah 1:6; cf. 2 Chronicles 6:38) and therefore could not have been the original recipients of Ezekiel’s message.

Second, there was no need for Ezekiel to give a description of the First Temple since such a description already existed, as preserved in the books of Kings and Chronicles (1 Kings 5:1-8:66; 2 Chronicles 2:1-7:22). Moreover, it is obvious from a comparison of the details given in both these texts that the description of the Temple and its services given by Ezekiel varies radically from the historical record of the construction of Solomon’s Temple and its services recorded by the traditional authors Jeremiah (Kings) and Ezra (Chronicles). These differences include unprecedented divergences in structure (immensely larger dimensions), style, and ceremony, as well as a river that flows eastward out of the Temple to refresh the arid areas of the Arabah and the Dead Sea (Ezekiel 47:1-12). Moreover, some of Ezekiel’s instructions for the Temple and its service contradict or are a departure from those in the Mosaic Law. For example, Ezekiel’s instruction to make the Altar of Burnt Offering with steps (Ezekiel 43:17) violates a specific commandment in the Mosaic ceremonial legislation against such a construction (Exodus 20:26). Some of the apparent departures from the Mosaic Law include the absence of the Ark of the Covenant in the Holy of Holies, no mention of the table for the shew-bread or lampstand in the outer Holy Place, no anointing oil within the Temple or its court, the absence of the High-Priesthood. These factors argue strongly that Ezekiel could not have had the First Temple in view since it was constructed in accordance with the Mosaic legislation (2 Kings 6:12; 8:56-58; 2 Chronicles 2:4; 6:16; 8:12-13).

A Plan for the Post-Exilic (Second) Temple

Another interpretation holds that Ezekiel’s description was a visionary plan for the rebuilding of the post-exilic (Second) Temple. This view argues that since the expectation of the exilic community was to rebuild the Temple and restore its service (Ezra 5:11-14), Ezekiel as their priest-in-exile provided these plans to enable them to do so. While this appears on the surface to be the logical position, it requires a non-literal interpretation because the post-exilic High Priest Zerubbabel did not literally employ these plans. However, the same objections to the previous view also apply, since Zerubbabel’s Second Temple was a reduced form of the Solomonic Temple and the reinstituted services were strictly in accordance with the Mosaic Law (Ezra 3:2-4; Nehemiah 8:1-18; 10:28-39). Too, if Ezekiel’s model formed the basis, even symbolically, for the Second Temple, there should have been some reference to this in the post-exilic prophets who oversaw its construction. However, Ezra, Haggai, Zechariah, and Nehemiah, who led the rebuilding of Jerusalem and the Temple, made no mention of Ezekiel’s prior instructions. This is quite inexplicable if the purpose for the prophecy was to provide the exiles returning from Babylon a description for renewing the Temple and its services. Moreover, if this were the case, these prophets, critical of the post-exilic delay in rebuilding the Temple, would certainly have included in their address to the exiles an appeal to rebuild based on Ezekiel’s Temple plans.

In response, this view has offered some areas of compatibility to the Second Temple, yet such would be expected for any rebuilding of the Temple, and again, the significant differences in topography, dimensions, details, and priestly performance with that of the Second Temple, including the fact that the post-exilic Land of Israel was never divided among the tribes as Ezekiel’s prophecy required, argue against the utilization of Ezekiel’s model. However, the most significant difference between Ezekiel’s Temple and the Second Temple was the absence of the Shekinah Glory. Ezekiel made the departure of the Shekinah the sign of God’s judgment on Israel (Ezekiel 10:18; 11:22-23) and envisioned its return as the sign of the Nation’s divine restoration (Ezekiel 43:1-7; 44:1-4; 48:35; cf. Ezekiel 37:25-28).

...

The Promise of a Literal Eschatological Temple

Given the objections against the views of the symbolic school presented above, the only remaining option is to take Ezekiel chapters 40-48 literally and its application as eschatological, that is, for the period of the future restoration of National Israel during the Millennial Kingdom. A number of arguments based on internal and external evidence can be made in support of the literal and eschatological interpretation of this section.

(1) The literary unity of the book requires a literal Temple be understood throughout its chapters. Chapters 40-48 form an inseparable literary conclusion to the book. Although these chapters constitute a new vision in the prophecy, they are linked with chapters 1-39 in repeating earlier themes in a more detailed fashion. This linkage may be seen in the fact that the beginnings of both chapters 1 and 40 share a number of similar features. For example, Ezekiel’s vision of the presence of God in Babylon (Ezekiel 1:1; compare 8:1) finds it complement and completion in the vision in the Land of Israel (Ezekiel 40:2). In like manner, the problem created by the departure of God’s Presence in the opening section of the book (chapters 9-11) finds an anticipated resolution with its return in this section (Ezekiel 43:1-7). In fact, the concern for the Presence of God could be argued as the uniting theme of the entire text of Ezekiel. Without chapters 40-48 there is no answer to the outcome of Israel, and in particular Jerusalem and the Temple, no resolution to the Nation’s history of sacred scandal, and no grand finale to the divine drama centered from Sinai on the Chosen Nation.

Ezekiel’s prophecy of the future Temple is the means to restoring the Presence of God to Israel (a physical as well as spiritual concern). Its focus in the book falls into three divisions: (1) Prophecies of the Temple’s desecration and destruction (Ezekiel 4:1-24:27), (2) Prophecies of Israel’s return and restoration (Ezekiel 33:1-39:29), and (3) Prophecies of the Temple’s rebuilding and ritual (40:1-48:35). If it were a literal Temple (the First Temple) whose desecration and destruction was discussed in the first section of the book, the last section’s discussion of a Temple’s restoration would also expect a structure of the same kind. A comparative view of the exilic understanding of return from captivity reveals the prophets saw the rebuilding the physical Temple as essential to restoration (Daniel 9:20; 2 Chronicles 36:22-23; Ezra 1:2-11; Haggai 1:2-2:9; Zechariah 1:16; 6:12-15; 8:3). Would Ezekiel as a like-minded prophet (or God as the ultimate Author) have attempted to comfort his people’s physical and spiritual loss with anything other than the literal restoration of a Temple to which the Divine Presence could return?

If it is countered that chapters 40-48 are a spiritual vision and therefore not meant to be a literal reality, the literary structure of the book argues against this possibility. In chapters 8-11 all interpreters are in agreement that the literal First Temple in Jerusalem is in view. Although Ezekiel’s depiction of its desecration is visionary and serves as the basis for a spiritual warning to the exilic community of impending divine judgment, not one commentator doubts that an actual structure is described. Again, it must be emphasized that Ezekiel was not physically in Jerusalem when he reported these things, but in Babylon with the Judean exiles. It was “in the visions of God” that he was spiritually transported to Jerusalem (Ezekiel 8:3). Therefore, everything he mentions in this first section concerning the Temple, its “inner court” (8:3), “porch” (8:16), “altar” (8:16), “threshold” (9:3), and “East gate” (10:19), were all seen in a vision. Despite this fact, the symbolic school is unanimous in accepting this as a vision of the literal Temple. Why then in chapters 40-48, when the prophet, still “in the visions of God” (Ezekiel 40:2), mentions the exact same places in the same order: “inner court” (40:27), “porch” (40:48), “altar” (43:18), and “East gate” (43:3), are these structures now declared to be only spiritual symbols? If the desecration and destruction of a literal Temple was described in a vision, the vision of the restoration and reconsecration of a Temple should also be understood as literal.

(2) The context of the Temple’s restoration requires an eschatological and literal interpretation. Chapters 40-48 open with a statement marking the specific date of Ezekiel’s vision: “the tenth of the month [of Tishri]” (Ezekiel 40:1). The Jewish Sages viewed the purpose of this chronological note as marking an eschatological context, since the tenth of Tishri is reckoned as a Jubilee year [Hebrew, yovel], and the date of Ezekiel’s vision was determined to be the first Day of Atonement [Hebrew, Yom Kippur] of the Jubilee year. Together, this date prefigured Israel’s Day of Redemption in both its physical (Land) and spiritual (repentance) aspects. Rabbi Joseph Breuer notes: “On that day, which summoned the subjugated and estranged among God’s people to accept freedom and called upon all the sons of Israel to return to their God, on that day it was given to the Prophet to behold a vision of the rebuilt, eternal Sanctuary of the future and to receive the basic instructions for the establishment of the State of God that would endure forever”(Sepher Yechezkel, 353). Therefore, from the very first verse the Rabbis considered the context both eschatological and literal.

The restored Presence of God with Israel in His Sanctuary (Ezekiel 37:26-28) appears as the climatic event in the restoration context of Ezekiel 33-37 as well as in chapters 40-48 where it returns to fill the Temple and consecrate it as God’s throne (Ezekiel 43:1-7). The Ezekiel 37 text reveals its eschatological setting by describing this restoration as a time when “David will [again] be king over them (Israel)” (verse 24), an “everlasting covenant of peace” (verse 26) will be established between God and Israel, God’s Sanctuary will [again] be in their midst” (verse 26), and “the nations will know I am the Lord” (verse 28). In particular, the “everlasting covenant of peace” (the idea being of security and well-being in the Hebrew term shalom) is unique, being described in more detail in Ezekiel 34:25-29 as Land-centered, completely eliminating harmful animals, guaranteeing security from any foreign invasion, and bringing unparalleled agricultural renewal accompanied by divinely-sent seasonal rains (cf. Zechariah 14:17). Such a covenant was never enacted with Israel in the past and therefore must have its fulfillment in the eschatological age (Millennial Kingdom).

The terms used for the Temple in Ezekiel 37:26-28 likewise indicate an eschatological setting. The Temple is called a mishkan, the Hebrew word used formerly for the Tabernacle, and said to be “over them” (Hebrew, ‘lyhm). This pictures God’s “sheltering Presence” as once the pitched Tabernacle in the wilderness protected the Israelite tribes. One of the false hopes of the past was in the inviolability of the Temple and its ability to preserve the disobedient Nation simply because it existed. In the future, however, the Nation will not sin and the Temple, with the Shekinah, will serve as the source of the Nation’s, and the world’s, prosperity and peace. The Temple is also called miqdash “Sanctuary,” emphasizing its holiness, and is said to be, like the covenant and the restoration of God’s Presence, “eternal” (verses 26, 28). Again, such a Temple could only find its fulfillment in the Millennial Kingdom where the protective “Glory-cloud” of God will return to fulfill this concept of the Temple (see Isaiah 4:5-6). This Temple, presented as part of the eternal covenant, in is that which is expanded upon in greater detail in the prophecy of chapters 40--48.

[ ... and it continues in this discussion ... see the link for the full paper and discussion on it... ]

488 posted on 03/10/2010 12:18:44 AM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: wmfights
Here is a portion of an article from Dr. Mal Couch's weblog in regards to the size of the Millennial Temple. I'm just taking a portion of the entire series of articles on the subject. You'll also find Dr. Mal Couch's materials at Clifton Bible Church.

A pertinent quote here...

According to Ezekiel's text, the millennial city of Jerusalem and the Temple will together encompass a 2,500 square-mile area. The portion reserved for the priests and Levites is some 50 miles, while the Temple courts will be one mile square. These dimensions are larger than those of the modern State of Israel." (Randall Price, The Temple and Bible Prophecy, p. 531).



Physical Characteristics

There is a vast difference between the Temple described by Ezekiel and that of the other Temples. For example, Temple researcher and archeologist Dr. Randall Price highlights the vast grandeur of Ezekiel's Temple compared to the others. " One of the problems for many who seek to interpret Ezekiel's vision of the Temple literally is the problem of the immense size of the building (compared to the sizes of the First and Second Temples). According to Ezekiel's text, the millennial city of Jerusalem and the Temple will together encompass a 2,500 square-mile area. The portion reserved for the priests and Levites is some 50 miles, while the Temple courts will be one mile square. These dimensions are larger than those of the modern State of Israel." (Randall Price, The Temple and Bible Prophecy, p. 531).

The vast size of the temple has led some to interpret the Temple spiritually since the current physical landscape cannot hold the structures. However, God's work during the Great Tribulation provides ample descriptions of physical changes to the earth and the Temple proper will sit higher than any structure around. That currently is not the case, so the mountains surrounding the temple mount will be split (Zech. 13:4) and the Temple mount will rise (Zech. 14:10).

Now it will come about that in the last days the mountain of the house of the LORD will be established as the chief of the mountains, and will be raised above the hills; And all the nations will stream to it. (Isa. 2:2)

There is no mistaking that "chief" hear means "at the top". This is literally translated, "…the thing being established, the Lord's mountain, the Lord's house, on the top of the mountains, and the thing being lifted up from the hill…"

Physical Size

One the greatest differences of the Millennial Temple to the previous temples is the vast size increase. The First Temple was grand at double the dimensions of the Tabernacle and triple the height, it measured 60x20x30 cubits high which converts to feet as about 90x30x45 ft and about 3,500 sq. ft.

The second Temple built by Zerubbabel was probably smaller than the first, but upon its reconstruction under Herod, the Temple dimensions proper were virtually the same size. Its surroundings, however, were larger, providing the Roman governance a strong source of management and control over Jewish worship.

The Millennial Temple's dimensions are given in royal cubits (21 inches compared to 18 inches for a standard cubit). The use of the royal cubit as opposed to a standard cubit is probably due to the fact that at the time of the prophecy they were in captivity in Babylon which is what they would understand and serves to further remove the Millennial Temple from its predecessors.

The immense size of the Millennial Temple's compound is stated to be 500x500 rods (1 rod = 6 cubits; Ezek. 40:5) or 5250x5250 ft (about a mile) or about 1 mile square (Ezek. 42:18). The whole area is said to be 50 square miles (Ezek. 48:20). The text says 25,000 with no units, so most translations add cubits, but the units should be rods not cubits since the individual items within the larger area or district would not fit within the area if it were in cubits.

489 posted on 03/10/2010 12:53:58 AM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
Thanks for the detail.

I've been meaning to go back to Ezekiel and work out the dimensions but have not had the time. The size of this Temple raises a whole bunch of questions, but it does resolve one I've been thinking about.

I've been wondering how Jesus would fit all the Christians that serve him during the Millennial Reign in a Temple.

490 posted on 03/10/2010 5:56:48 AM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
You were saying ...

The size of this Temple raises a whole bunch of questions, but it does resolve one I've been thinking about.

What other questions are raised, pray tell? :-)

491 posted on 03/10/2010 1:09:08 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
What other questions are raised, pray tell? :-)

When did it get built?

How did it get built?

Why isn't there any mention of it in The Revelation of Jesus Christ?

492 posted on 03/10/2010 1:24:41 PM PST by wmfights (If you want change support SenateConservatives.com)
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To: wmfights
First, before going into that, what came to mind... when considering your questions is that a good newspaper reporter would severely criticize the Bible for how it "reports" things to us ... :-)

And the reporter would be right. Is that any way for the Bible (and/or God) to be ... not to lay it all out and answer the "who, what, when, where, and why" -- right there in the article (at least the chapter or the "book" you're looking at)? With the Bible, things are "scattered" in different books and not all things are told to us, unfortunately.

BUT..., what we find out, with God and the Bible, is that even though all things which are told to us in the Bible, including associated facts and other "information" is 100% inerrant and infallible -- we do not have a "history book" (in the normal sense of a history book).

If we did have a history book (even though "history" is given to us in the Bible), we would have those answers laid out for us in very good and orderly fashion.

The Bible is not a history book in that it's going to give us those things that we normally expect to see in history books. It does give us "history" -- but only as it's relevant to what God is saying to us or as we "get it" in a tangential sense.

Anyway, I just had to say that, first... :-)

So..., to your questions... You were asking ...

When did it get built?

How did it get built?

Why isn't there any mention of it in The Revelation of Jesus Christ?

I take it that these questions are related to the Third Temple and not to Ezekiel's Temple.

All you can say about when it gets built is before the midpoint of the Tribulation, and far enough back from the midpoint of the Tribulation so that there is time for the construction to be completed.

I've read that the building of it could be completed in 12-18 months and be ready for operation, given that plans are ready to go (or just about ready to go) and materials have been gathered (or are in the process of being gathered now). So, it's like a whole construction crew, sitting on the sidelines, all materials ready and waiting, and they're just waiting for the signal to "Go!" -- and then they build it as fast as they can... :-)

Thus, the Temple gets built anywhere from now to about 12-18 months before the midpoint of the Tribulation. The reason why the "timing" for the building of the Temple is not given in the Bible -- is -- because of the Rapture being a "signless event".

If one were told that the Temple was going to be built a year before the Tribulation begins... you would have a "sign" for the timing of the Rapture. Since no time is given for the building of the Third Temple... that keeps the Rapture from being "dated" (as so many people try to do... :-) ...).

And continuing... as to how it gets built. I presume you mean how is it possible that it can be built, given the way the Muslims are about it right now. I don't believe you're talking about "construction details" and "floor plans"... :-)

Again, I think the lack of detail here, is related to the "imminency of the Rapture".

I think if God gave more detail here (and also, perhaps this is detail that is simply not necessary, too) ... then it would give some kind of "dating" for the Rapture.

You can see that I'm "keying" a lot of this into the idea that when the Rapture happens is not going to be known ahead of time, and thus, if we get more detail about some of these things, it would make the Rapture an event that could be dated, beforehand.

Why the Muslims would permit such a thing to happen... well... the answer to that one may be related to Psalm 83 and Israel's victory over the surrounding Muslim nations and having Israel "living in peace" at the time (because that's what the Gog/Magog war says, in Ezekiel 38/39).

And lastly, why isn't it mentioned in Revelation? Well, I've got to detour here a little bit. First of all, the Bible is an integrated whole and God gave us His "progressive revelation" (the Word of God) over a long period of time -- which to God was "nothing" (in the manner of figuring time). The entirety of mankind is a mere "blip" on God's timescale, and thus, God gave us His full revelation, over a period of a few millennia, which to Him was like sitting down at a desk and writing it out for us... just a "moment of time" in God's framework. To us, it's a long time, but to Him, it's nothing, and He did mean for it to be "progressive", too... revealing more and more until the fullness of Revelation was given, and the canon of Scripture closed.

Okay, so in that light, having something in Revelation or not, means nothing, actually. It's all one book, given to us by God, and Revelation is simply the end of the book (of the Word of God).

BUT..., having said that, the Third Temple is mentioned in Revelation... chapter 11.

Now..., aside from the Third Temple, the Millennial Temple that is spoken about in Ezekiel, is going to require a lot of things be changed, including the topography of the land, plus the boundaries of Israel and that appears to happen at the end of the Tribulation and at the beginning of the establishment of the Kingdom of the Messiah, here on earth.

You probably already knew all that... but it's always good to go over it for anyone who is reading here.

If I didn't quite get it right, for what you were asking... let me know ... or discuss some aspect of what I was talking about. :-) I hope this helps.

493 posted on 03/10/2010 2:06:46 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler

Wow! I just stumbled on this thread and it’s like a glass of cold clear water on a hot parched day! How wonderful to read about the rapture without the usual scoffing.

I came to Christ back in 1988 through a dream about the rapture. At the time I was newly married, and my husband was a believer but I was not. In my very vivid dream, I woke up to see him floating above the bed completely joyful, and then he was just gone. I have never felt such a desolate, horrified feeling as I did at that moment. He was gone and didn’t even seem to care that I wasn’t with him.

At the time I knew nothing about the rapture, but the dream left such an impression on me that the next day I mentioned it to my husband, and he explained that some Christians believe that is what will happen when Jesus returns for His people. I gave my life to Christ then and there, and I’ve never looked back. God is so good!

Thank you for this thread and the chance to ponder the rapture in a supportive environment.


494 posted on 03/12/2010 8:32:48 PM PST by Hischild
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To: Hischild
You were saying ...

Wow! I just stumbled on this thread and it’s like a glass of cold clear water on a hot parched day! How wonderful to read about the rapture without the usual scoffing.

You bet! It's nice to not have the usual scoffers. It's very difficult to carry on a study of the Rapture, when you've got a whole "scoffing squad" after you on the open threads... :-)

Glad to have you aboard.

And, by the way, if you know of anyone else who would like to come to this thread, be sure to let them know... and also, if you or someone else would like to get on the "Ping List" for this Rapture Caucus, just FReep-mail me and you'll be on it. It's very low volume pinging and sometimes you don't hear anything for a couple of months or more... :-) but, we're always here.


Thank you for this thread and the chance to ponder the rapture in a supportive environment.

You're welcome. And there are many others who also contribute to this very useful and supportive environment, too.

495 posted on 03/12/2010 10:04:39 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
A little humor...


496 posted on 03/13/2010 1:23:04 PM PST by smokingfrog (You can't ignore your boss and expect to keep your job... WWW.filipthishouse2010.com)
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To: smokingfrog
That's gonna end up on one of JoeProBono's posts one of these days... I just know it... :-)
497 posted on 03/13/2010 2:03:28 PM PST by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: Star Traveler
Bless you my son


498 posted on 03/13/2010 2:08:18 PM PST by JoeProBono (A closed mouth gathers no feet)
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To: All
Okay, getting ready for some more postings here on this thread... and this is the standard reminder for those who are coming in for the first time, what the "Rapture Caucus" is about and who cannot post here ...

The subject of the Rapture never gets old, it's never stale, it's been read about in the Bible for almost 2,000 years now, and Christians are expectantly awaiting the return of the Lord, first for His church (to take them home with Him) and then for Him to return back to this earth, to set up the one-world government, in which He rules and reigns over all the nations of the world.

So, we can come back to this time and time again, and it never gets old... :-)

BUT... to make sure that any new poster is "up-to-speed" on the rules for the Rapture Caucus, I post that here again.

In short they say, "post here in this thread if you support the Pre-trib, Mid-trib and/or Pre-wrath Rapture [not Post-trib]. Otherwise, if you don't -- don't post here.


The Rapture Caucus is operated under the Religion Moderator's rules for these types of threads.

Types of threads and guidelines pertaining to the Religion Forum:
[Threads listed are "Prayer", "Devotional", "Caucus" and "Ecumenical"; included here is the "Caucus" definition.]

Caucus threads are closed to any poster who is not a member of the caucus.

For instance, if it says “Catholic Caucus” and you are not Catholic, do not post to the thread. However, if the poster of the caucus invites you, I will not boot you from the thread.

The “caucus” article and posts must not compare beliefs or speak in behalf of a belief outside the caucus.


Caucus threads.

Who can post? Members of the caucus and those specifically invited

What can be posted? Anything but the beliefs of those who are not members of the caucus

What will be pulled? Reply posts mentioning the beliefs of those who are not members of the caucus. If the article is inappropriate for a caucus, the tag will be changed to open.

Who will be booted? Repeat offenders.



Now, back to my own comments...

Some FReepers may have gotten jumped on (in other threads) for posting their belief in the Rapture, from what the Bible says. But -- here -- we're in support of the Rapture.

You are a member of this RAPTURE CAUCUS if you are in support of the Biblical Doctrine of the Rapture, as a separate event from the Second Coming of Jesus Christ (which is to establish the Kingdom on earth). This is defined per Post #78 (the Religion Moderator) and Post #79 (my affirmation of the same), which says we are talking about a Pre-Trib, Mid-Trib and Pre-Wrath Rapture, and not a Post-Trib Rapture (which happens at the same time as the return of Jesus Christ to the earth, i.e., His Second Coming).

Those who await the Rapture, are looking for that "Blessed Hope", Jesus Christ coming in the clouds, for His Bride, the Church.

So, feel free to join in the discussion -- in support of the Rapture -- as we talk about what information you have from the Bible, seminaries, church, pastors, books, friends and so on.

We can discuss the pertinent Bible verses, who are the pastors and/or churches who support it, what books are good to read, what is the purpose of the Rapture, the reason you find some compelling, or whatever else may be enlightening and helpful to the rest of us, in regards to edifying, exhorting and comforting one another, in support of the Biblical Doctrine of the Rapture.

Also, another "given" here is the Inspiration of Scripture from God, an inerrant and infallible Word from Him. Please refer to the "Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy" for a fuller explation of it. Although we can discuss what other pastors, preachers, teachers, churches, people, etc. explanations are, it all does come back to the final authority of the Word of God and not writers, pastors, theologians, churches or any other temporal entity (although we do use those for some help and understanding, just not the final authority on the matter). Remember, all these others are also appealing to the Word of God, in their explanations and understandings.

Chicago Statement on Biblical Inerrancy
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago1.html

Chicago Statement on Biblical Hermeneutics
http://www.bible-researcher.com/chicago2.html
[this part gives guidelines for interpretating the Word of God]

499 posted on 03/31/2010 8:07:55 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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To: All

Why I Believe The Bible Teaches Rapture Before Tribulation

Dr. Thomas Ice

Churches today often neglect the study and preaching of biblical prophecy because they consider it a controversial and impractical topic. At the same time, many bemoan the apathy of believers and struggle to encourage people toward holy living. Churches caught in this trap need to consider that the teaching of the Rapture, woven throughout the fabric of the New Testament, addresses these issues and can provide motivation for godliness. No single Bible verse says precisely when the Rapture will take place in relation to the Tribulation orthe Second Coming in a way that would settle the issue to everyone's satisfaction. However, this does not mean that the Scriptures do not teach a clear position on this matter, for it does. As we shall see later, the Bible does promise that the church will not enter the time of God's wrath, which is another term for the tribulation. Many biblical passages teach the pretribulational rapture of the church.

Many important biblical doctrines are not derived from a single verse, but come from a harmonization of several passages into systematic conclusions. Some truths are directly stated in the Bible, such as the deity of Christ (John 1:1; Titus 2:13). Other doctrines, like the Trinity and the incarnate nature of Christ, are the product of harmonizing the many passages that relate to these matters. Taking into account all that the Bible says on these issues, orthodox theologians, over time, concluded that God is a Trinity and that Christ is the God-Man. Similarly, a systematic, literal interpretation of all New Testament passages relating to the Rapture will lead to the pretribulational viewpoint: that, at the Rapture, all living believers will be translated into heaven at least seven years before Christ's Second Coming. This is what I believe the Bible teaches.

Foundational Issues

Four affirmations provide a biblical framework for the Pretribulational Rapture: They are (1) consistent literal interpretation, (2) Premillennialism, (3) futurism, and (4) a distinction between Israel and the church. These are not mere suppositions, but rather are important biblical doctrines upon which the doctrine of the Rapture is built.

Literal Interpretation

Consistent literal interpretation is essential to properly understanding what God is saying in the Bible. The dictionary defines literal as "belonging to letters." Further, it says literal interpretation involves an approach "based on the actual words in their ordinary meaning . . . not going beyond the facts."1 "Literal interpretation of the Bible simply means to explain the original sense of the Bible according to the normal and customary usage of its language."2 How is this done? It can only be accomplished through the grammatical (according to the rules of grammar), historical (consistent with the historical setting of the passage), contextual (in accord with its context) method of interpretation.

Literal interpretation recognizes that a word or phrase can be used either plainly (denotative) or figuratively (connotative). As in our own conversations today, the Bible may use plain speech, such as "Grandmother died yesterday" (denotative). Or the same thing may be said in a more colorful way, "Grandmother kicked the bucket yesterday" (connotative). An important point to be noted is that even though we may use a figure of speech to refer to Grandmother's death, we are using that figure to refer to an event that literally happened. Some interpreters are mistaken to think that just because a figure of speech may beused to describe an event (i.e., Jonah's experience in the belly of the great fish in Jonah 2), that the event was not literal and did not happen in history. Such is not the case. A "Golden Rule of Interpretation" has been developed to help us discern whether or not a figure of speech was intended by an author.

When the plain sense of Scripture makes common sense, seek no other sense; therefore, take every word at its primary, ordinary, usual, literal meaning unless the facts of the immediate context, studied in the light of related passages and axiomatic and fundamental truths, indicate clearly otherwise.3

The principle of consistent, literal interpretation of the entire Bible logically leads one to the pre-trib position. This means that the prophetic portions of the Bible are interpreted like any other subject matter in Scripture. The prophetic sections of the Bible use the same conventions of language found throughout the Bible.

Premillennialism

The next biblical principle foundational to Pretribulationism is Premillennialism. Premillennialism teaches that the Second Advent will occur before Christ's thousand-year reign upon earth from Jerusalem (Revelation 19:11-20:6). It is contrasted with the Postmillennial teaching that Christ will return after He has reigned spiritually from His throne in heaven for a long period of time during the current age, through the Church, and the similar Amillennial view that also advocates a present, but pessimistic, spiritual reign of Christ.

Biblical Premillennialism is a necessary foundation for the PreTrib position since it is impossible for either the Postmillennial or Amillennial view of Scripture to support a PreTrib understanding of the Rapture.

Futurism

The third contributing principle is Futurism. As if understanding the different millennial positions are not complicated enough, diversification is compounded when we consider the four possible views which relate to the timing of when an interpreter sees prophecy being fulfilled in history. The four views are simple in the sense that they reflect the only four possibilities in relation to time-past, present, future, and timeless. The Preterist (past) believes that most, if not all, prophecy has already been fulfilled, usually in relation to the destruction of Jerusalemin A.D. 70. The Historicist (present) sees much of the current Church Age as equal to the Tribulation Period. Thus, prophecy has been and will be fulfilled during the current Church Age. Futurists (future) believe that virtually all prophetic events will not occur in the current Church Age, but will happen in the future Tribulation, Second Coming, or Millennium. The Idealist (timeless) does not believe either that the Bible indicates the timing of events or that we can know before they happen. Therefore, idealists think that prophetic passages mainly teach great ideas or truths about God to be applied regardless of timing.

Pretribulationism can only be built upon the futurist understanding of prophetic events. Such a conclusion is the result of the application of a consistent literal interpretation of prophecy as future historical events that are yet to occur.

Distinction between Israel and the Church

The final principle related to the pre-trib position is the biblical truth that God's single program for history includes two peoples, Israel and the Church. This view has been systematized into what is known as dispensationalism. While the basis of salvation (God's grace) is always the same for Jew and Gentile, God's prophetic program has two distinct aspects. Presently, God's plan for Israel is on hold until He completes His current purpose with the Church and Raptures His Bride to heaven. Only pretribulationism provides a purpose for the rapture. That purpose is to remove the Church via the Rapture so God can complete His unfinished business with Israel during the seven-year Tribulation period. Therefore, if one does not distinguish between passages which God intends for Israel from those intended for the church, then there results an improper confusion of the two programs.

It should not be surprising that God's single plan for history has a multi-dimensional aspect (Ephesians 3:10) that we know as Israel and the Church. If human novelists can weave multiple plots throughout their stories, then how much more can the Great Planner of the universe and history not do the same kind of thing?

Those commingling God's plan for Israel and the church destroy an important basis for the pre-trib rapture. The Bible clearly teaches that the church and Israel have in many ways different programs within the single plan of God even though both are saved on the same basis.

SPECIFIC PRETRIBULATIONAL ARGUMENTS

The fact of the Rapture was first revealed by Christ to His disciples in John 14:1-3. It is most clearly presented in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 which encourages living Christians that, at the Rapture, they will be reunited with those who have died in Christ before them. In verse 17 the English phrase "caught up" (NASB) translates the Greek word harpaz, which means "to seize upon with force" or "to snatch up." This is the Greek word from which the English word "harpoon" is derived. The Latin translators of the Bible used the word rapere, the root of the English term rapture. A debate swirls around when this takes place relative to the Tribulation. At the Rapture living believers will be "caught up" in the air, translated into the clouds, in a moment of time.

An interesting tie between the revelation of the rapture by our Lord in John 14:1-3 and Paul's expansion in 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18 has been observed by commentator J. B. Smith. Smith has observed a "thought for thought" parallel between the two passages:

Let us now compare two passages of Scripture which, by the words employed, clearly show that they refer to the same event. . . .

John 14:1-3                    1 Thessalonians 4:13-18

trouble - verse 1                 sorrow - verse 13

believe - verse 1                 believe - verse 14

God, me - verse 1                 Jesus, God - verse 14

told you - verse 2                say to you - verse 15

come again - verse 3              coming of the Lord - verse 15

receive you - verse 3             caught up - verse 17

to myself - verse 3               to meet the Lord - verse 17

be where I am - verse 3           ever be with the Lord - verse 17

Observe:

Such a comparison bodes well for the pretribulational rapture of the church, as we shall see below.

Operating consistently upon the foundation of these four biblical foundations, we will survey six specific biblical arguments for Pretribulationism. These are not all the reasons for a PreTrib Rapture, but are simply a summary of some of the basic arguments.

Contrasts Between Comings

The Rapture is characterized in the New Testament as a "translation or resurrection coming" (1 Cor. 15:51-52; 1 Thess. 4:15-17) in which the Lord comes for His church, taking her to His Father's house (John 14:3). On the other hand, Christ's Second Advent with His saints (the Church = Rev. 19) descends from heaven and arrives on earth to stay and set up His Messianic Kingdom (Zech. 14:4-5; Matt. 24:27-31). The differences between these two events are harmonized naturally by the pre-trib position, while other views are not able to comfortably account for such differences.

Paul speaks of the Rapture as a "mystery" (1 Cor. 15:51-54), that is, a truth not revealed until it was disclosed by the apostles (Col. 1:26). Thus the Rapture is said to be a newly revealed mystery, making it a separate event. The Second Coming, on the other hand, was predicted in the Old Testament (Dan. 12:1-3; Zech. 12:10; 14:4).

The New Testament teaches about the Rapture of the church and yet also speaks of the Second Coming of Christ. These two events are different in a number of ways. Note the following contrasts between the translation at the Rapture and Christ's Second Coming to establish the kingdom.

    Rapture/Translation                   2nd Coming/Estabish Kingdom

 1. Translation of all believers             1. No translation at all

 2. Translated saints go to heaven           2. Translated saints return to earth

 3. Earth not judged                         3. Earth judged & righteousness established

 4. Imminent, any-moment, signless           4. Follows definite predicted signs including tribulation

 5. Not in the Old Testament                 5. Predicted often in Old Testament

 6. Believers only                           6. Affects all men

 7. Before the day of wrath                  7. Concluding the day of wrath

 8. No reference to Satan                    8. Satan bound

 9. Christ comes for His own                 9. Christ comes with His own

10. He comes in the air                     10. He comes to the earth

11. He claims His bride                     11. He comes with His bride

12. Only His own see Him                    12. Every eye shall see Him

13. Tribulation begins                      13. Millennial Kingdom begins

Dr. John Walvoord concludes that these "contrasts should make it evident that the translation of the church is an event quite different in character and time from the return of the Lord to establish His kingdom, and confirms the conclusion that the translation takes place before the tribulation."5

Both events mention clouds symbolizing a heavenly role in both, but other differences demonstrate that these are two distinct events. At the Rapture, the Lord comes for His saints (1 Thes. 4:16); at the Second Coming the Lord comes with His saints (1 Thes. 3:13). At the Rapture, the Lord comes only for believers, but His return to the earth will impact all people. The Rapture is a translation/resurrection event; the Second Coming is not. At the Rapture, the Lord takes believers from earth to heaven "to the Father's house" (John 14:3); at the Second Coming believers return from heaven to the earth (Matt. 24:30).

The best harmonization of these two different events supports a pretribulational Rapture (which is signless and could happen at any moment), while the many events taking place during the Tribulation are best understood as signs leading up to the Second Coming.

A Time Interval Needed Between Comings

An interval or gap of time is needed between the rapture and the second coming in order to facilitate many events predicted in the Bible in a timely manner. Numerous items in the New Testament can be harmonized by a pre-trib time gap of at least seven years, while other views, especially postribulationists, are forced to postulate scenarios that would not realistically allow for a normal passage of time. The following events are best temporally harmonized with an interval of time as put forth by pretribulationism.6

2 Corinthians 5:10 teaches that all believers of this age must appear before the judgment seat of Christ in heaven. This event, often known as the "Bema Judgment" from the Greek word bema, is an event never mentioned in the detailed accounts connected with the second coming of Christ to the earth. Since such an evaluation would require some passage of time, the pre-trib gap of seven years nicely accounts for such a requirement.

Since Revelation 19:7-10 pictures the church as a bride who has been made ready for marriage (illustrated as "fine linen," which represents "the righteous acts of the saints") to her groom (Christ); and the bride has already been clothed in preparation for her return at the second coming accompanying Christ to the earth (Rev. 19:11-18), it follows that the church would already have to be complete and in heaven (because of the pre-trib rapture) in order to have been prepared in the way that Revelation 19 describes. This requires an interval of time which pretribulationism handles well.

The 24 elders of Revelation 4:1-5:14 are best understood as representatives of the church. Dr. Charles Ryrie explains:

In the New Testament, elders as the highest officials in the church do represent the whole church (cf. Acts 15:6; 20:28), and in the Old Testament, twenty-four elders were appointed by King David to represent the entire Levitical priesthood (I Chron. 24). When those twenty-four elders met together in the temple precincts in Jerusalem, the entire priestly house was represented. Thus it seems more likely that the elders represent redeemed human beings, . . . the church is included and is thus in heaven before the tribulation begins.7

If they refer to the church, then this would necessitate the rapture and reward of the church before the tribulation and would require a chronological gap for them to perform their heavenly duties during the seven-year tribulation.

Believers who come to faith in Christ during the tribulation are not translated at Christ's second advent but carry on ordinary occupations such as farming and building houses, and they will bear children (Isa. 65:20-25). This would be impossible if all saints were translated at the second coming to the earth, as posttribulationists teach. Because pretribulationists have at least a seven-year interval between the removal of the church at the rapture and the return of Christ to the earth, this is not a problem because millions of people will be saved during the interval and thus be available to populate the millennium in their natural bodies in order to fulfill Scripture.

It would be impossible for the judgment of the Gentiles to take place after the second coming if the rapture and second coming are not separated by a gap of time. How would both saved and unsaved, still in their natural bodies, be separated in judgment, if all living believers are translated at the second coming. This would be impossible if the translation takes place at the second coming, but it is solved through a pretribulational gap.

Dr. John F. Walvoord points out that if "the translation took place in connection with the second coming to the earth, there would be no need of separating the sheep from the goats at a subsequent judgment, but the separation would have taken place in the very act of the translation of the believers before Christ actually sets up His throne on earth (Matt. 25:31)."8 Once again, such a "problem" is solved by taking a pre-trib position with it's gap of at least seven years.

A time interval is needed so that God's program for the church, a time when Jew and Gentile are united in one body (cf. Eph. 2-3), will not become commingled in any way with His unfinished and future plan for Israel during the tribulation. Dr. Renald Showers notes that "[A]ll other views of the Rapture have the church going through at least part of the 70th week, meaning that all other views mix God's 70-weeks program for Israel and Jerusalem together with His program for the church. A gap is needed in order for these two aspects of God's program to be harmonized in a non-conflicting manner."9

The pretribulational rapture of the church fulfills a biblical need to not only see a distinction between the translation of Church Age saints at the rapture, before the second coming, but it also handles without difficulty the necessity of a time-gap which harmonizes a number of future biblical events. This requirement of a seven-year gap of time adds another plank to the likelihood that pretribulationism best reflects the biblical viewpoint.

The Imminent Coming of Christ

The New Testament speaks of our Lord's return as imminent, meaning that it could happen at any moment. Other events may occur before an imminent event, but nothing else must take place before it happens. Imminency passages instruct believer to look, watch, and wait for His coming (1 Cor. 1:7; Phil. 3:20; 1 Thes. 1:10; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28; 1 Peter 1:13; Jude 21). If either the appearance of the Antichrist, the Abomination of Desolation, or the unfolding of the Tribulation must occur before the Rapture,then a command to watch for Christ's coming would not be relevant. Only pretribulationism teaches a truly imminent Rapture since it is the only view not requiring anything to happen before the Rapture. As required by the above mentioned passages, the New Testament indicates that the believer's hope is to look, watch, and wait for a person and that is Jesus. Only pretribulationism enables a believer to look for Christ and yet at the same time give full meaning to Second Coming passages and the signs that lead up to our Lord's return to the earth. Imminency is a strong argument for the pre-trib Rapture and provides the believer with a true "blessed hope."

The Nature of the Tribulation

The Bible teaches that the Tribulation (i.e., the seven-year, 70th week of Daniel) is a time of preparation for Israel's restoration and regeneration (Deut. 4:29-30; Jer. 30:4-11; Ezek. 20:22-44; 22:13-22). Revelation 3:10 notes that the Tribulation will not be for the church but for "those who dwell upon the earth" (Rev. 3:10; 6:10; 8:13; 11:10 [twice]; 13:8, 12, 14 [twice]; 17:2, 8), as a time upon them for their rejection of Christ is His salvation. While the church will experience tribulation in general during this present age (John 16:33), she is never mentioned as participating in Israel's time of trouble, which includes the Great Tribulation, the Day of the Lord, and the Wrath of God. Pretribulationalism gives the best answer to the biblical explanation of the fact that the church is never mentioned in passages that speak about tribulational events, while Israel is mentioned consistently throughout these passages.

The Nature of the Church

Only pretribulationalism is able to give full biblical import to the New Testament teaching that the church differs significantly from Israel. The church is said to be a mystery (Eph. 3:1-13) by which Jews and Gentiles are now united into one body in Christ (Eph. 2:11-22). This explains why the church's translation to heaven is never mentioned in any Old Testament passage that deals with the Second Coming after the Tribulation, and why the church is promised deliverance from the time of God's wrath during the Tribulation (1 Thes. 1:9-10; 5:9; Rev.3:10). The church alone has the promise that all believers will be taken to the Father's house in heaven John 14:1-3) at the translation, and not to the earth as other views would demand.

The Work of the Holy Spirit

Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 discusses a man of lawlessness being held back until a later time. Interpreting the restrainer of evil (2:6) as the indwelling ministry of the Holy Spirit at work through the body of Christ during the current age, supports the pretribulational interpretation. Since "the lawless one" (the beast or anti-Christ) cannot be revealed until the Restrainer (the Holy Spirit) is taken away (2:7-8), the Tribulation cannot occur until the church is removed.

PRACTICAL IMPLICATIONS

Like all aspects of biblical doctrine, teaching on the Rapture has a practical dimension. Dr. Renald Showers has summarized some of the practical implications of the pre-trib Rapture.

The fact that the glorified, holy Son of God could step through the door of heaven at any moment is intended by God to be the most pressing, incessant motivation for holy living and aggressive ministry (including missions, evangelism and Bible teaching) and the greatest cure for lethargy and apathy. It should make a major difference in every Christian's values, actions, priorities and goals.10

As John writes, "Everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure" (1 John 3:3). Our Rapture hope is said to urge a watchfulness for Christ Himself (1 Cor. 15:58); to encourage faithfulness in church leaders (2 Tim. 4:1-5); to encourage patient waiting (1 Thes. 1:10); to result in expectation and looking (Phil. 3:20; Titus 2:13; Heb. 9:28); to promote godly moderation (Phil. 4:5); to excite "heavenly mindedness" (Col. 3:1-4); to bring forth successful labor (1 Thes. 2:19-20); to experience comfort (1 Thes. 4:18); to urge steadfastness (2 Thes. 2:1-2; 1 Tim. 6:14; 1 Peter 5:4); to infuse diligence and activity (2 Tim. 4:1-8); to promote mortification of the flesh (Col. 3:4-5; Titus 2:12-13); to require soberness (1 Thes. 5:6; 1 Peter 1:13); to contribute to an abiding with Christ (1 John 2:28; 3:2); to support patience under trial (James 5:7-8); and to enforce obedience (2 Tim. 4:1).

The pretribulation Rapture is not just wishful "pie-in-the-sky, in the bye-and-bye" thinking. Rather, it is vitally connected to Christian living in the "nasty here-and-now." No wonder the early church coined a unique greeting of "Maranatha!" which reflected the primacy of the Blessed Hope as a very real presence in their everyday lives. Maranatha literally means "our Lord come!" (1 Cor. 16:22) The life of the church today could only be improved if "Maranatha" were to return as a sincere greeting on the lips of an expectant people.


[1] Webster's New Twentieth Century Dictionary, Unabridged, Second Edition, p. 1055.

[2] Paul Lee Tan, The Interpretation of Prophecy (Winona Lake, Ind.: Assurance Publishers, 1974), p. 29.

[3] David L. Cooper, The World's Greatest Library: Graphically Illustrated, (Los Angeles: Biblical Research Society, 1970), p.11.

[4] J. B. Smith, A Revelation of Jesus Christ (Scottdale, Penn.: Herald Press, 1961), pp. 312-13.

[5] John F. Walvoord, The Return of the Lord (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1955), p. 88. The quotation and the first six contrasts in the comparison above are taken from pp. 87-88 of Walvoord's The Return.

[6] John F.Walvoord, The Return of the Lord (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1955), p. 88. The quotation and the first six contrasts in the comparison above are taken from pp. 87-88 of Walvoord's The Return.

[6] Many of the points in this section aretaken from John F. Walvoord, The Rapture Question: Revised and Enlarged Edition (Grand Rapids: Zondervan, 1979), pp. 274-75.

[7] Charles C. Ryrie, Revelation (Chicago: Moody Press, 1968), pp. 35-36.

[8] Walvoord, The Rapture Question, p. 274.

[9] Renald Showers, Maranatha Our Lord, Come! A Definitive Study of the Rapture of the Church (Bellmawr, N. J.: The Friends of Israel Gospel Ministry, Inc., 1995), p. 243.

[10] Showers, Maranatha, pp. 255-56.

500 posted on 03/31/2010 11:34:11 AM PDT by Star Traveler (Remember to keep the Messiah of Israel in the One-World Government that we look forward to coming)
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