The Rapture [RAPTURE CAUCUS]

From another thread, I found these stats to be worthwhile.

Footsteps of the Messiah, Chap 4, p96
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

The earthquake factor is even more interesting. According to the Encyclopedia Americana, between the years 63-1896 A.D. there were only twenty-six recorded earthquakes. Most of the world’s earthquakes began to occur since 1900 (per USGS Natl Earthquake Information Center. Earthquakes with 1,000 or more deaths from 1900.) (http:neic.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/eqsmajr.html. 12May2000)

More recent web lists form USGS record some 80 quakes from 856AD to 1896, and some 432 major quakes for the 20th century, while in the first decade alone over 432 major quakes over 6.0 have been recorded (this tally is not consistent though, as some of those in the 20th century 432 tally are less than 3.0 located in remote areas or are aftershocks, while frequently over 100 quakes are recorded daily in the same range in the early 21st century. see http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/historical.php)

One article from the “Dispatch from Jerusalem”, 3rdQtr, 1992, p.11 referenced in Footsteps of the Messiah provides a greater number in middle centuries as recorded:

“In the first 1000 years after Jesus, there were approxiamately 5 recorded major earthquakes (although we are sure more occurred in remote locations). However, the trend has been on the increase:
14th century, there were 157 major earthquakes.
15th century, there were 174 major earthquakes.
16th century, there were 253 major earthquakes.
17th century, there were 278 major earthquakes.
18th century, there were 640 major earthquakes.
19th century, there were 2119 major earthquakes.
Nearly 900,000 earthquakes have been recorded thus so far in the 20th century. An earthquake every hour!”

The trend does appear to be undeniably increasing with respect to the impact of earthquakes upon humanity.

Yes, as far as PreMill, Pre-Trib Rapture is dispensational.

Yes, Pre-trib

I know we have some Chinese lurkers on FR

Thank you for the post. I think we are helped by keeping things in perspective.

Can you tell me about any earlier books about the rapture?

This has nothing to do with doubting the Rapture, or doubting the coming of the Lord, but rather -- "getting the facts straight" about what Jesus was saying and when it's supposed to be happening. It's obviously not happening right now -- that is -- we're not in an increasing mode of more and more earthquakes of bigger and bigger size...

In addition to earthquakes I believe another "stage setting" event we will see prior to the Rapture is the Temple being built. I'm convinced the Temple will not be a small quickly built building, but will be along the lines of the Temple described in Ezekiel chptrs 40-42.

Rev. 11:1 Then I was given a reed like a measuring rod. And the angel stood saying, Rise and measure the temple of God, the altar and those who worship there.

John would not be told to measure a small structure that could easily be described, measuring indicates size.

Also, if the Temple is a large ornate building the muslim building at that site (the golden dome shrine) has to be removed. Something big has to happen to make this possible, earthquakes or a war. These "stage setters" have to precede the Rapture if it's pre, or mid, trib.

You were saying ...

There is an APPARENT increase in earthquakes by simple fact that there is a better global seismic netword AND increased news about quakes we wouldn’t normally hear about IMHO.

This idea of an "apparent" increase in earthquakes is what the USGS confirms, in that there are more people, more instruments in more remote areas to measure things and better communications.

So, if there are these factors at work ... (1) more people to notice what has been going on, (2) more instruments to measure what has not been measured before, and (3) better communications to let the rest of the world know and also to communicate these remote earthquakes back to scientists -- then maybe nothing "more" is really happening after all (in terms of earthquakes, right now).

I'm reminded of the saying, "If a tree falls in the woods and no one is around, does it make a noise?" So, we can modify it and say, "If an earthquake happens and no one sees or hears it or measures it, is it really an earthquake?" :-)

But, having said that, the Bible also makes it clear that just before Jesus returns to set up His one-world government over all the people of the world and all the nations -- there is a major, major earthquake that knocks down all the cities of the world, thus destroying the works of the devil. We haven't seen anything like that in any time in history that I'm aware of, short of the world-wide catastrophe of the flood that covered the globe (and, of course, destroyed the cities, too).

This earthquake, though, happens inside the Tribulation and we're not going to see it prior to the Tribulation.

I’m sure that when quakes become prophetic, there will be NO problem seeing the increase.

Well..., right there -- there's the thing, as you said it. When something like this happens, it will not be able to be denied and the world (even the unbelievers) will recognize this as from God. Right now they don't. Right now this can easily be denied. And right now, even though I expect the Rapture at any moment and the coming of the Lord back to the earth, very soon (and after that) -- I can easily deny it.

I don't see any really compelling reason to link up whatever we see today in the way of earthquakes with anything that Scripture has to say with the soon-coming of the Lord to set up His Kingdom. [... and, of course, we're getting "no sign" for His soon coming at the time of the Rapture...]

During the Tribulation period (that seven years) I expect a lot of people on the planet earth, to be getting signs, signs and more signs -- so many, that they will know beyond any doubt, what is about to happen. They will be extremely troubled during that time of the Tribulation. And fortunately (for us... :-) ...) we're not in the Tribulation period (that seven last years prior to Jesus coming to set up the Kingdom).

From the USGS webpage....

Are Earthquakes Really on the Increase?

We continue to be asked by many people throughout the world if earthquakes are on the increase. Although it may seem that we are having more earthquakes, earthquakes of magnitude 7.0 or greater have remained fairly constant.

A partial explanation may lie in the fact that in the last twenty years, we have definitely had an increase in the number of earthquakes we have been able to locate each year. This is because of the tremendous increase in the number of seismograph stations in the world and the many improvements in global communications. In 1931, there were about 350 stations operating in the world; today, there are more than 8,000 stations and the data now comes in rapidly from these stations by electronic mail, internet and satellite. This increase in the number of stations and the more timely receipt of data has allowed us and other seismological centers to locate earthquakes more rapidly and to locate many small earthquakes which were undetected in earlier years. The NEIC now locates about 20,000 earthquakes each year or approximately 50 per day. Also, because of the improvements in communications and the increased interest in the environment and natural disasters, the public now learns about more earthquakes.

According to long-term records (since about 1900), we expect about 17 major earthquakes (7.0 - 7.9) and one great earthquake (8.0 or above) in any given year.

See the chart at this USGS webpage...

Earthquake Facts and Statistics

You were saying ...

In addition to earthquakes I believe another "stage setting" event we will see prior to the Rapture is the Temple being built. I'm convinced the Temple will not be a small quickly built building, but will be along the lines of the Temple described in Ezekiel chptrs 40-42.

Good point on that Temple, and I'm going to refer to another thread that had some discussion of the preparations for that Temple being built and the "furnishings" for the Temple.

This was the prayer thread, "Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem"...

See Post #11, which gives a "visual" on how the scenario in Revelation can be fulfilled, according to what we are told there.

Also, note Post #22, which gives a statement from the Temple Institute, who has made a lot of preparations for the coming Temple.

And lastly, see Post #30, for the implements for the Temple, that the Temple Institute has already constructed and are "ready-to-go"... :-)

And lastly, in connection with your statement above, the Temple described in Ezekiel can't be built, because of the size requirements and the topography of the land. It just wouldn't fit.

Bible Prophecy teachers pretty much say that this is the "Millennial Temple" that Jesus, the Messiah of Israel has built, when He has set up His Kingdom on this earth. So, this would be the "Fourth Temple" -- while the one described in Revelation (and the one that is being worked on right now by the Jews, in preparations) would be the "Third Temple" ...

John would not be told to measure a small structure that could easily be described, measuring indicates size.

Also, if the Temple is a large ornate building the muslim building at that site (the golden dome shrine) has to be removed. Something big has to happen to make this possible, earthquakes or a war. These "stage setters" have to precede the Rapture if it's pre, or mid, trib.

No, it wouldn't be a simple tent as what was carried around with Israel in the wildnerness wanderings. The Third Temple will be a regular structure, I believe. As far as how long it would take to build it, I've heard that it could take about 18 months, if they have all the preparations ready-to-go, and that's exactly what we see happening now (i.e., all the "preparations" are being made).

Also note in Revelation that not all the normal Temple area is measured. There is part that is "left out" because it's under control of the Gentiles, and I believe that's a reference to the Temple Mount area, being split between the Muslims and the Jews and each one occupying a portion of it.

There are three possible locations for the Third Temple being built, and only one of the three is in the location where the current "Dome of the Rock" is. So, if the Third Temple is built at either of the two other locations, the Dome of the Rock can stay there and not impede the building of the Third Temple.

You were saying ...

I know we have some Chinese lurkers on FR

I sure hope they are learning quite a bit from our Rapture discussions, then... :-) This sort of discussion on an "open thread" can get "wild and crazy" and totally confusing, so this is a place where some calm reigns...

If any have some questions, please send a FReep-mail to me and I'll see about answering them.

You were saying ...

IMO it’s difficult to just dismiss all these as not being a wake-up call / alert to Believers ??

Well... please do notice that today I've been talking about earthquakes and not other events (like Israel, the Temple, Iran, the Muslims, etc.). These other events can be considered "stage setting" for the Messiah of Israel establishing His Kingdom on earth, and those immediate events that precede that (the Tribulation time), but earthquakes are not stage-setting events...

It should be well-enough established that we are in the current time period for the Rapture to occur, which is a "signless event" -- and thus, it won't be "announced" ahead of time by any sort or series of events. That's why there's that Doctrine of Imminence, referred to above. The Rapture can happen at any time and there are no signs which precede it.

However, there are plenty of signs which precede the coming of the Lord to set up His Kingdom on this earth, and those signs overflow in the Tribulation period. But, we're not in the Tribulation period right now.

And, as I've said before (and other Bible prophecy teachers have said before) even if we don't have the many signs that will be there during the Tribulation, we do see the things "lining up" which can be part of those signs which will happen during the Tribulation. The "stage setting" itself, isn't a specific sign (as such), but it's an indication of the nearness of all these events.

But, it's meant to be an indication to believers, and not to the general world. Trying to convince the "general world" of these "stage setting events" (which are not signs in and of themselves) -- is a fairly futile exercise, actually.... :-)

Only the perceptive will understand that. Trying to get an unbeliever to be "perceptive" about these coming prophetic events is trying to do what only the Holy Spirit does, upon one being "born again".... I wouldn't bother with that part of it. I would only preach the Gospel of Salvation to them, as we are supposed to do.

When these unbelievers see the signs that will happen in the Tribulation time, they will then not be able to dispute about them, as they can easily do now. They can do so now, because those signs which will be there during the Tribulation period -- are not here now. Thus, you're beating that proverbial dead horse, with the unbeliever.

And actually, it's almost like beating a dead horse with some believers, too -- as I've seen on the open threads, dealing with the Rapture. There are more Christians who have been taught things "against what the Bible says" in their churches, than have been taught exactly what the Bible says. So, there are a whole lot of ignorant Christians out there... :-)

Following up on this once again, you were saying ...

Also, if the Temple is a large ornate building the muslim building at that site (the golden dome shrine) has to be removed. Something big has to happen to make this possible, earthquakes or a war. These "stage setters" have to precede the Rapture if it's pre, or mid, trib.

I mentioned earlier that there were three possible sites proposed for the rebuilding of the Temple. Here's a picture showing where they are, labeled A, B, and C ...

This is from the following website...

The Temple Mount in Jerusalem
Where were the First and Second Jewish Temples Located?

Site A lines up with the Golden Gate, which has been sealed up by the Muslims, because they were told that the Messiah comes through that gate to claim His kingdom (whether the Messiah actually does that or not, I don't know).

You can see some pictures of the area, shown on this other thread...

Pray for the Peace of Jerusalem

A 1925 picture of the Golden Gate is at Post #13.

A 1937 picture of the Temple Mount shows the Golden Gate clearly and as being in front of the opening to a possible rebuilt Third Temple at Site A, where the Dome of the Spirits is at..., seen at Post #14

For anyone that is interested, Dr. Steve Austin is going to speaking (keynote speaker) at the Chafer Theological Seminary annual conference in Houston, TX; March 8-10 at West Houston Bible Church. The conference is open to everyone.

http://deanbible.org/Media/Documents/CTS_Schedule_2-25-10.pdf

Dr. Steven A. Austin is a Professor
of Geology and chairman of the
Geology Department at the Institute
for Creation Research Graduate
School where he specializes in field
geology research as well as teaching
and directing research. He has three
degrees in Geology–University of
Washington, San Jose State, and
Pennsylvania State University (Ph.D.). He has made notable
discoveries at Grand Canyon and Mount St. Helens
and has performed geologic research on six of the
seven continents of the world. Dr. Austin has written
four books and numerous technical papers for the
Christian and secular press on creationist geology, and
has also produced four videos dealing with geology
plus developed a computer software program.
Currently Dr. Austin is researching mass kill of nautiloids
within the Redwall limestone of Grand Canyon,
radioisotopes of Grand Canyon rocks, and earthquake
destruction of archaeological sites in Jordan. He resides
in California.

....”(Haiti now rated as the largest natural disaster in recorded history per UN study),”.....but only fromt he perspective that their structures were so weak by poor workmanship and not meeting any standards so of course the devastation hwas much to do with this...the earthquake in Chili was far worse in it’s power than what hit Haiti..but though severe damage they are not only better off for their structures but they are and were quick to begin their own cleanup...unlike those in Haiti.

Soecial teams noted that every country they have gone to help in catostrophies the citizens worked right along with them...to quote..”We did not see this in Haiti”.

You were saying ...

What do you think of this simplified illustration?

Doncha love charts? ... :-) ... I do... They are useful to illustrate what a lot of words are saying. Sometimes those words are confusing, in grasping the overall picture, but a nice chart can do wonders to bring it all together.

Yes, that chart looks good from what would be considered the Dispensational viewpoint. And don't let anyone fool you as some others use "Dispensationalism" as a curse word ... LOL ...

See the following --

The teaching of Dispensationalim / Pastor Mark Hitchcock and Dr. Charles Ryrie

... at Post #329

And more specifically, I see in your chart, the Rapture of those who are "in Christ" (dead or alive) at the beginning of the Tribulation, the unsaved dead being held in Hades, awaiting the final judgment (the Great White Throne Judgement of Revelation 20), after the Rapture, I see the Judgement Seat of Christ (you'll hear some pastors referring to it as the Bema seat), and then there's the Marriage Supper of the Lamb (some put it in Heaven and others at the beginning of the Millennial Kingdom), it shows the Millennial Kingdom, at the end of which is the Great White Throne Judgment. The interesting thing here is that there are two judgments shown in the chart, one being between the Tribulation and the Millennial Kingdom, which would be the Sheep and Goat Judgment (of the nations). It's probably of no big consequence but it shows that to be "bigger" than the Great White Throne judgment at the end of the Millennial Kingdom reign (just saying... no big deal, actually).

Then everyone who is at the Great White Throne Judgement does go directly into the lake of fire, as is indicated -- anyone whose name is not written in the Lamb's book of life, that being the "second death". And then we see the new Heavens and the new Earth, as all things are made new, as we are told at the end of Revelation.

It's a very good chart.

This depicts my thoughts and study of how the future will play out. I have looked carefully at other possibilities but found this depiction stands closest to scripture without tweaking something to fit where one might want it to. The flow of events and text supporting runs smooth.

THANKS THANKS

Footsteps of the Messiah, Chap 4, p96
Dr. Arnold Fruchtenbaum

The earthquake factor is even more interesting. According to the Encyclopedia Americana, between the years 63-1896 A.D. there were only twenty-six recorded earthquakes. Most of the world’s earthquakes began to occur since 1900 (per USGS Natl Earthquake Information Center. Earthquakes with 1,000 or more deaths from 1900.) (http:neic.usgs.gov/neis/eqlists/eqsmajr.html. 12May2000)

More recent web lists form USGS record some 80 quakes from 856AD to 1896, and some 432 major quakes for the 20th century, while in the first decade alone over 432 major quakes over 6.0 have been recorded (this tally is not consistent though, as some of those in the 20th century 432 tally are less than 3.0 located in remote areas or are aftershocks, while frequently over 100 quakes are recorded daily in the same range in the early 21st century. see http://earthquake.usgs.gov/earthquakes/world/historical.php)

One article from the “Dispatch from Jerusalem”, 3rdQtr, 1992, p.11 referenced in Footsteps of the Messiah provides a greater number in middle centuries as recorded:

“In the first 1000 years after Jesus, there were approxiamately 5 recorded major earthquakes (although we are sure more occurred in remote locations). However, the trend has been on the increase:
14th century, there were 157 major earthquakes.
15th century, there were 174 major earthquakes.
16th century, there were 253 major earthquakes.
17th century, there were 278 major earthquakes.
18th century, there were 640 major earthquakes.
19th century, there were 2119 major earthquakes.
Nearly 900,000 earthquakes have been recorded thus so far in the 20th century. An earthquake every hour!”

The trend does appear to be undeniably increasing with respect to the impact of earthquakes upon humanity.

Thanks for the info you posted...

Here is some more information on this scientist, who is a Christian, who disputes the idea that earthquakes are increasing.

Steve Austin

Dr. Steven A. Austin is a field research geologist with a Ph.D. from Penn State University in sedimentary geology. He is “Senior Research Scientist” with Institute for Creation Research in Dallas, Texas. He has performed geologic research on six of the seven continents of the world. His research adventures have taken him by helicopter into the crater of Mount St. Helens volcano, by bush plane onto glaciers in the high mountains of Alaska, by raft through the entire Grand Canyon, on horseback into the high Sierra, by elevator into the world’s deepest coal mines, by SCUBA onto the Great Barrier Reef of Australia, by rail into the backcountry of Korea, by foot onto barren plateaus of southern Argentina, and by four-wheel drive into remote desert areas of Israel, Jordan and Saudi Arabia. He is the author of three books, three videos, one computer software package, and more than thirty technical geology papers.

Dr. Austin’s field research within Grand Canyon includes over 400 nights camped out below the Canyon’s rim. He has launched 22 raft trips within Grand Canyon. He has explored very remote areas of Grand Canyon by mule, helicopter and ATV. His book “Grand Canyon: Monument to Catastrophe” and his DVD “Grand Canyon: Monument to the Flood” summarize his investigations. He has over ten technical papers on Grand Canyon. Subjects of his technical publications on Grand Canyon include lava dams, breached dams, fossils, limestones, sandstones, basalts, diabase sills and radioisotope dating. He is widely known for his discovery of the regionally extensive mass-kill and burial bed within the Redwall Limestone about 2000 feet below the Canyon’s rim.

See the original article for more links and further information... [click on the link above the picture].

http://withchrist.org/larkin.htm

Irrespective of the reasons, e.g. poor building codes, etc the net result is that approximately 10% of the entire national population on Haiti has been badly impacted.

On a percentatage of population basis, the 225,000 dead in Haiti (and still counting) would equate to approximately 8 million dead in the USA in a single event

On a percentage of population basis the number of those now homeless (1.25 million) would equate to 30 million becoming homeless overnight here in the USA.

I am also well aware of “Chile” having lived there in May 1960 when the strongest quake in recorded history struck = 9.5

Likewise the impact in death and damage is a factor not just of the quake strength - rather in Haiti the depth of the quake was very shallow and directly under their national capital of 3 million people.

The latest quake in Chile was offshore at a distance several miles to the nearest city and was about 3 time as “deep” as the the quake that struck in Haiti.

Also the underlying bedrock in Chile - as back-stopped by the Andes Mountains -- that come down very close to the Pacific Ocean reduces the degree of vibration (and hence damage)

Thus is sum, I was merely reflecting that the UN and other international bodies have officially rated the Haiti quake as the "greatest natural disaster" based on the “total percentage of population killed and made homeless” - NOT the the quake magnitude - that would be Chile May 1960 (9.5) when 1,000 people lost their lives,