Posted on 03/18/2009 10:27:27 PM PDT by Star Traveler
bttt
Matthew 7:13 (NIV) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
Luke 18:8 (NIV) I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV) Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
What if the rapture will be a non event in the eyes of the world due to the lack of numbers of live members of the body of Christ at the time that may be involved? I even see people going to church the Sunday, (or Saturday) after the rapture. I am not saying this is true but only what if. And I am NOT saying it is only 144000.
On May 29 (the 6th of Sivan on the Hebrew calendar)Then Jews will celebrate Hag HaShavuot, the Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost.
This he later speculates, with a caveat about setting dates, is a good day, without setting dates, for the rapture.
Hi there marbren; glad to see a resurrection in this thread, after a few weeks of down-time...
In reference to what you were saying about Missler and “Pentecost” and its significance to the Rapture — can you “set the state” (so to speak) and build it up to form the groundwork for understanding what is being said here?
I just say that for the benefit of some others who might want to read a bit more about this before deciding what the heck is being talked about — and then responding to it.
I’ve got an idea, of course, without reading Missler, but there are some differences with some people on the idea, and the Feasts and so on. So, it would help to “flesh it out” a bit here...
If you can, thanks...
Okay, the crux of the whole thing, as to what you were saying was — “What if the rapture will be a non event in the eyes of the world due to the lack of numbers of live members of the body of Christ at the time that may be involved?”
—
Okay, we’re talking about the Rapture, and then we’re also talking about how many will be taken in the Rapture.
First, there is a wee-little variance of belief on the Rapture regarding who will be taken. I should clear that up, before starting in the rest of it.
Some say that only those who are (sorta...) “faithful Christians” will be taken in the Rapture, while other (so-called) backsliding or unfaithful Christians will be “left behind” along with the unbelievers.
Okay, so in that regard, are we talking about the one view where *all Christians* are taken up in the Rapture, regardless of how “faithful” they are (and we all have varied somewhat in that regard at various times...)? Or is this in reference to just the very committed, faithful, diligent, working-hard, no-nonsense, spirit-filled (add your own adjective here...) Christian?
I’m going on the basis that if one is a Christian, and has Salvation in the Lord, Jesus Christ, they are taken up in the Rapture, regardless of their current state of “faithfulness” (if you will...). Their “salvation” is intact, while their “works” will be judged and rewarded or not, at the Judgement Seat of Christ, as a subsequent matter to Salvation.
If that is settled (and for the sake of me continuing the comments here, in this post, I’ll assume it is, at least temporarily... LOL...) — then we’re wondering about how many Christians there are in the world and/or in the United States, since most of us talking here are in the U.S.
In short, all who have confessed Jesus Christ as their personal Savior and who do truly know Him, per the Scriptures, as Paul says — then they’re “going” in the Rapture. So, how many of those people exist? That’s the question.
Percentage-wise, in the U.S., you may get estimates ranging anywhere from 10% to 90% — a wide-range... :-)
I’m going to say that my estimate is 10-20% of the U.S. population.
So, the next question is (again for the sake of simply continuing my comment), if it’s 10-20% of the U.S. population — are you saying that this many people missing at one time would not be noticed or reported or mentioned in the press?
I think if it were just 10% of the U.S. population missing in an instant — it would be chaos and confusion among many, many people and institutions and governments would be inundated with demands from people related to these 10-20% of missing people to find out what is going on.
It would be a really, really big and huge news story and wouldn’t die down overnight. This would dominate news and headlines and TV reports and so on for a very long time.
Anyway..., that’s my thinking on the matter... :-) for whatever it’s worth.
—
Next, I wanted to run down that list of Bible verses you included...
You quoted — Matthew 7:13 (NIV) Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it.
I’ll just briefly tell you what I think it pertains to and how these verses pertain to the Rapture.
To me, this is a message about salvation, in general, over all the period of time for man’s history. It compares salvation by the way God has provided for mankind versus — the hundreds and thousands of other ways (the wide and broad road) of supposed “other ways to God” (namely the false gods...).
It’s not a verse that is directly related to the Rapture. But, the Rapture is related to this “idea” in that only the saved, in Christ, are going to be in the Rapture, at *that particular time* in history (out of those who are “alive”; there will be the “dead in Christ” in the Rapture, too...).
Then you quoted — Luke 18:8 (NIV) I tell you, he will see that they get justice, and quickly. However, when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on the earth?”
To me, this refers to the Second Coming of Christ, to set up the Kingdom of God on this earth and rule and reign over the nations of the world, from Jerusalem, on the Throne of David, as King of Kings and Lord of Lords.
This isn’t (at least to me) a reference to the Rapture. And yes, when you consider how many are lost to all the judgements and plagues and disasters during that time of the Tribulation, and then, with the Sheep and Goat Judgement after the Messiah is here on earth — it’s a good question as to whether the Son of Man (another name for the Messiah of Israel) will find faith on the earth. By that time, the numbers will be dramatically reduced to almost nothing in comparison to the time before Tribulation.
And lastly you quoted — Matthew 7:21-23 (NIV) Not everyone who says to me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. Many will say to me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?’ Then I will tell them plainly, ‘I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!’
This particular quote, to me, is not the Rapture. This is the Sheep and Goat Judgment, at the return of the Messiah to the earth and when He says that as you have done to my brethren (i.e., the Jews on the earth during the Tribulation time) you have done to me... Thus, this is the comment that those who have preached a so-called “Christianity” that is not real and thinks that the “church” has taken the position of Israel and that Israel is of no significance any longer, and have *contributed* to the persecution of the Jews, as a result of that — will be cast into outer darkness for them preaching such “doctrines of demons” in that time, during the Tribulation.
Those are my thoughts on the matter and, of course, we welcome any and all others (from the Rapture Caucus) to pitch in here, too.
I am not sure about 10% and I was just speculating It would be way less. I doubt that any true Christian born in say 759 AD would be raptured and missed. I doubt the ground would be disturbed in any way, I am just speculating of coarse. You will agree that we live in an age where reason out paces spirituality.
New Question: The melting of elements Peter mentions to me comes after the millennium. Does this melting involve only the earth or the entire Universe. My current understanding is the entire universe.
I'll try and see if I can post the whole article.
Here is a new one for you. I just saw a movie poster. Guess what opens May 29 in theaters Pixar's new movie UP
You said — Here is a new one for you. I just saw a movie poster. Guess what opens May 29 in theaters Pixar’s new movie UP
—
I didn’t know anything about the movie, so I had to look it up. For those who might like to see a teaser preview, you can see it at ...
http://disney.go.com/disneypictures/up/
Looks like a cute movie.
Here is the article from khouse. I am not sure if Chuck Misseler wrote it
The Feasts of Weeks:
Pentecost in May
On May 16-17 (the 6th of Sivan) Israel will celebrate Hag Ha Shavuot, the Feast of Weeks, or Pentecost.
This is based on Leviticus 23:15-22, which points to “the morrow after shabbat after Passover” (the Feast of First Fruits) plus 50 days—in Greek, Pentecost.
(For another insight into the interval of 49 days, review our article on the hidden message in the Torah, found in the May, 1993 newsletter.)
Pentecost is one of only three of the seven feasts of Moses that was compulsory for every able male to attend.1 This seems to indicate that these three were of particular significance.
The Feast of Weeks is associated with the birth of Israel and the giving of the Law in Exodus 19. Thus, it is also called the Feast of Revelation.
Since the Passover was on the 14th of Nisan, and there were three days to the Red Sea crossing, then 46 days into the wilderness, and three days of Moses’ preparation, this is deemed to correspond to the 49-day interval between the Feast of First Fruits (17th of Nisan) and the 6th of Sivan.
There is also a tradition that David died on the 6th of Sivan.
Prophetic Implications
The seven Feasts of Moses are not only commemorative; they are also prophetic.2 The first three, in the month of Nisan, are predictive of the First Coming of Jesus. The
last three, in the month of Tishri, are associated with His Second Coming. It is this one, in between, which is associated with the Church.3
The Birth of the Church
The Birth of the Church appears to be a fulfillment of the Feast of Pentecost, or Shavout. Jesus predicted it,4 and it was also fulfilled precisely on the Feast of Pentecost.5
(It is interesting to carefully compare Acts 2 with Exodus 19, both of which apparently occurred on the 6th of Sivan.)
It is also interesting that this is the only Feast of Moses in which leavened bread is allowed, which seems to give it a Gentile flavor! (Leaven is always a “type” of sin. Jesus and Paul both used it this way.6 It corrupts by puffing up.)
Most writers assume that the Feast of Pentecost was completely fulfilled in Acts 2. But maybe there’s still more to come.
Enoch Traditions
It is interesting that there is a rabbinical tradition that Enoch was born on the 6th of Sivan. Enoch is an extremely interesting mystery in the Old Testament. (The first prophecy by a prophet in the Bible is a prophecy of the Second Coming of Jesus Christ,7 uttered by Enoch before the flood of Noah!)
Another tradition about Enoch is that he was translated (”raptured?”) on his birthday, the 6th of Sivan.
There were three groups of people facing the judgement of the flood of Noah:
1) those that perished in the flood;
2) those that were preserved through the flood (in the Ark);
3) those that were removed prior to the judgement of the flood.
It is interesting that Enoch might be a foreshadowing of a removal prior to judgement, in contrast to Noah and his family who were protected through it.
The Trumpet of God
Paul mentions the “Trumpet of God” in connection with the rapture.8 It is interesting that this term appears only twice in the Bible: at the giving of the Law at Sinai9 and at the rapture.
(Don’t confuse the “Trumpet of God” with the temple trumpets or the shofar. Also, remember that these trumpets continue during the Millennium, so they aren’t “the last trump.”)
Could both of these references to the “Trumpet of God” be connected with the 6th of Sivan?
The Feast of Harvest
Another name for the Feast of Weeks is Hag Ha Kazir, The Feast of Harvest, since it is celebrated at the time of the “first harvest.” It is interesting that Jesus frequently used “the harvest” as an idiom to refer to the ingathering of believers.10
An Interval in God’s Plan for Israel
In the famed Seventy Week prophecy in Daniel 9, where the Angel Gabriel outlines God’s plan for Israel, we find four key verses:
9:24 the scope of the prophecy;
9:25 69 weeks (of years) climaxing in the presentation of the Messiah the King;
9:26 an interval before the 70th week;
9:27 the 70th week.
(See our Briefing Package, The Seventy Weeks of Daniel for a review of this most amazing passage in the Bible.)
It appears that the sequence of events regarding Israel directly is interrupted for a period of time. This interruption appears to be associated with Israel’s rejection of the Messiah11 and God’s program for Israel is resumed at the completion of the Church.12
Paul tells us that the Church is a mystery not revealed in the Old Testament13 and if we examine the scriptures carefully we can find this mysterious interval throughout the scriptures.14
The day is approaching when the Church is “complete” and God will remove it and again continue with His program with Israel. Is it possible that His “clock” will restart on the 6th of Sivan, the very day that it was halted?
Caveat
While these conjectures are fun to explore, let’s remember they are always just conjectures. We don’t believe in setting dates: expect Him at any moment. “For in such an hour as ye think not the Son of Man commeth.”
The Master Counter
Paul tells us that there will be a time coming when the “fullness of the Gentiles” will be complete.15 There is apparently a heavenly tally counter that is yet to be full or complete. It seems that every time someone trusts the Lord Jesus for their salvation, that counter is incremented by one. Someday, when it is finally complete, the Father will say to the Son, “Go get them!” But only He knows the completing number; no one else does.16
Satan also knows of this counter but not the final number when it will be complete. Every time someone comes to Jesus, Satan doesn’t know whether or not
the counter is finally full! When it is, and the rapture occurs, he knows that he has but a little time to unfold his final schemes.
(Do you realize that for almost 2,000 years, Satan has been in shock treatment? We can understand why he is so anxious for each of us to be unfruitful: he will do anything to slow that counter down!)
Our Opportunity
Every day that the Lord tarries is another day for us to do His work, to share His blessings, and to pray for our unsaved loved ones.
Have you taken the imminent return of the Lord Jesus seriously? Are you personally really ready? Is this just a conceptual acknowledgement or is it the active dynamic in your personal life? How about in your professional life? Or your family life?
Isn’t it time to take the Bible seriously? Isn’t it time to take Him seriously?
Are you one of the ones remaining to complete the counter—and holding all the rest of us up?
* * *
Notes:
1. Deut 16:16.
2. Col 2:16-17.6.
3. See our Briefing Package, The Feasts of Israel, on page 16.
4. Jn 14:25-26
5. Acts 2:1-47
6. Matt 16:6; Lk 13:21; 1 Cor 5:6-8; Gal 5:7-9
7. Jude 14-15
8. 1 Thess 4:16
9. Ex 19:13; 16 et al.
10. Matt 12:29-30; 3:12; 2 Thess 2:1
11. Lk 19:42
12. Rom 11:25
13. Eph 3:3-7
14. Lk 4:18-19 vs. Isa 61:1-2 (note omission); Rev 12:5-6 et al.
15. Rom 11:25
16. Mk 13:32
For Further Study
A study of the Feast of Pentecost is not complete without a review of the Book of Ruth. The Jewish observance of the Feast of Weeks has always included the reading of this particular book. Why? It is provocative to note the interesting parallels relating to the Church.
This elegant love story exemplifies the role of the goel, or kinsman-redeemer. As we examine Boaz’s role, we notice that he, in many ways, pre-figures our own kinsman-redeemer, Jesus Christ.
Through his act of redemption, Boaz returns Naomi (Israel) to her land, and also takes Ruth (a Gentile) as his wife. This suggests a parallel with the Church as the Gentile bride of the kinsman-redeemer.
The parallels between Boaz, Naomi, and Ruth with Christ, Israel, and the Church, have been widely recognized, but it is remarkable to notice how many additional details of the story are consistent with this viewpoint. For example, who first introduces Boaz to Ruth? An unnamed servant! (John 16:13)
(For further details, see The Romance of Redemption, on page 16. One cannot fully appreciate Revelation Chapter 5 without it.)
1. Deut 16:16.
2.Col 2:16-17
3. See our Briefing Package,The Feasts of Israel, on page 16.
4. John 14:25,26; Acts 1:8.
5. Acts 2:1-47.
6. Matt 16:6; Luke 13:21; 1 Cor 5:6-8; Gal 5:7-9.
7. Jude 14,15.
8. 1 Thess. 4:16.
9. Exodus 19:13, 16 et al.
10. Matt. 12:29-30; 3:12; 2 Thess. 2:1.
11. Luke 19:42.
12. Rom. 11:25.
13. Eph. 3:3-7.
14. Luke 4:18,19 vs Isa. 61:1,2 (note omission); Rev 12:5,6; et al.
15. Rom 11:25.
16. Mark 13:32.
I am not sure what year this article was first written but this year the 6th of Sivan is May 29, 2009.
Thanks for supplying the information in the article...
For all-of-y’all who want to go through it, keep in mind that the following is the “basis” for what is being said in the article.
Prophetic Implications
The seven Feasts of Moses are not only commemorative; they are also prophetic. The first three, in the month of Nisan, are predictive of the First Coming of Jesus. The last three, in the month of Tishri, are associated with His Second Coming. It is this one, in between, which is associated with the Church.
It’s definitely something worth considering...
You said — Another movie besides UP opens on May 29th “Drag Me To Hell”
—
Hoo-boy! I’ll stay away from that one... LOL...
Say, if you want to get into a “knock-down, drag-out fight” about the nation of Israel being before God, as a nation, forvermore... here’s one...
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/religion/2253375/posts?page=312#312
This particular post is kind of down the line from all that has been going on, but it’s interesting how there are Christians (so-called, anyway) that teach and preach (what I call) ‘doctrines of demons” in that Israel has no future significance with God and that God is basically “finished” with Israel.
I’m calling it for what it is — doctrines of demons in an effort to *destroy* Israel any way possible, even if it is coming from some “theologies” of the so-called Christian church...
Have some fun if you want... :-)
Hi marbren, you were saying — Star Traveler I would appreciate your perspective on two concepts. Wheat and weeds and sheep and goats. My understanding is that wheat and weeds refer to the church (which is removed in the rapture as the Bride of Christ) and sheep and goats are Israelites and Tribulation saints which are separated after the tribulation.
—
Well, don’t think I’m “wimping out” here... LOL...
An answer — in brief — is that I would tend to agree with what is presented in the two papers at the bottom.
And so, giving a “pre-statement” here..., really, when we get right down to it, we’re all standing on the shoulders of a lot of others who have studied and devoted their entire lives to the Scriptures and these very issues. And much of what we say here is simply repetition of that, although we also understand what is being said and agree with it, in that we see this is what the Bible says, too (in what we read from some of these others).
I think it’s the height of presumption for anyone to think that they came up with all this themselves and didn’t need any of these others to study and devote all their efforts to these many issues, as they have.
But, even so, even with saying that, I do think that taking the Bible as the literal and authoritative Word of God will lead people in the same direction, so sooner or later, we will all get to the same place that Scripture is leading us.
So, I say all that to give you this...
A couple of written papers submitted to the Pre-Trib Research Center in their annual meetings. See at the bottom...
Pre-Trib Research Center
http://www.pre-trib.org/
The Pre-Trib Research Center has over 200 members in association with its efforts. Most of the top prophecy scholars, authors, and popularizes are members of the Center and Study Group. The association of these prophecy experts, which have been facilitated by the Pre-Trib organization, has contributed to the inspiration of dozens of books, articles, conferences, and events that express and defend the literal interpretation of Bible prophecy and the pre-trib rapture. PTRC and the Study Group have worked to bring together veteran prophecy experts to share their knowledge and encouragement concerning these matters to a younger generation of students and advocates. In this way the torch is being passed to a new generation.
PTRC Mission Statement
The Pre-Trib Research Center is a “think tank” committed to the study, proclamation, teaching and defending of the Pretribulational Rapture (pre-70th week of Daniel) and related end-time prophecy.
PTRC Doctrinal Statement
We believe that the sixty-six, canonical books of the Old and New Testaments, alone and in their entirety, comprise the God-inspired Scriptures which, therefore, are inerrant in their autographs.
We believe the Bible should be interpreted normally, as with any other piece of sane literature, by a consistently literal hermeneutic which recognizes the clear usage of speech figures.
We believe that Christ will literally rapture His church prior to the 70th week of Daniel, followed by His glorious, premillennial arrival on the earth at least seven years later to set up His 1,000 year kingdom rule from Jerusalem over the earth.
We believe that God’s plan for history demands a consistent distinction between national Israel and the church which includes an ongoing plan for national, ethnic Israel that culminates in Christ’s millennial kingdom.
—
The Kingdom in Matthew 13
by Dr. Stanley Toussaint
2003 Pre-Trib Study Group
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Toussaint-TheKingdomInMatthew13.pdf
... and ...
Consistent Pretribulationism and Jewish Questions of the End
by Dr. Ron Bigalke
2002 Pre-Trib Study Group
http://www.pre-trib.org/data/pdf/Bigalke-ConsistentPretribulat.pdf
And a note to all the others, whomever may read it, and the pinged ones..., it’s well worth a read for these papers, since they are giving a solid and foundational presentation for the basis of what is considered to be the Pre-Millennial, Dispensational framework for understanding what the Bible says — and *especially* for the *foundational understanding* of what God has in mind for “future Israel”....
I agree ST.....
GOD will give other’s onemore chance to repent of their ways and embrace the LORD..But we will not be here...
GOD does seperate the Sheep from the Goats....
The kingdom issue is not settled for me yet. When we are born again don’t we experience the kingdom relationship with Jesus? Are we not already in the vine?
—
Well, I’ll preface my statements with a few remarks.
First, the topic of the “Rapture” (given that it’s an accepted and real event in this thread) is closely tied in and together with the accompanying event of the “Tribulation” and then the next event of the “Millennial Reign of Christ” (the 1,000 year “kingdom”).
It’s only with “other” interpretations (not named here...) that these things are “not real” and are “spiritualized away” or “allegorized” as representing something else, other than what they *really* are, as plainly stated in the Bible — and said to be “in your heart”...
Note in that first article quoted up above, the statement...
“...it is quite clear the term kingdom is a noun describing the literal messianic reign of Christ on earth.”
Thus, that’s what Jesus is talking about to the Jews, his disciples, who were actually expecting that to come about soon, and thus they were asking Jesus about that. They wanted to know if He was setting up that kingdom *now* (at their time). Jesus didn’t tell them that they were wrong in expecting it, but that it wasn’t for them to know “when” it was going to come about (they have a lot of evangelizing to do first, as we well know, now, since almost 2,000 years have passed by and the kingdom is not set up on earth yet).
So, in answer to your question..., “When we are born again don’t we experience the kingdom relationship with Jesus?”
To tell you the truth, I don’t really know what a “kingdom relationship” is.
I know what being saved is. I know that a person is a new creation in Christ, when He accepts Christ as his Savior (and that happens immediately). I know that we have the Holy Spirit that indwells us, but a body that is called a “body of death” (per the Apostle Paul). We’ll have that body of death (even though we are a new creation in Christ, and the Holy Spirit indwells us), until the time when we are given our new glorified and permanent bodies to match up with being a new creature in Christ — which is at the time of the Rapture.
But, in all that (in being saved) — there’s nothing there that has anything to do with the “Millennial Kingdom”..., which is a kingdom on earth, which Jesus the Messiah of Israel sets up, in which He sits on the Throne of David (an throne for the nation of Israel), and He rules and reigns over all the nations on earth, in this earthly kingdom.
Those are two different things — being saved... and... the Millennial Kingdom.
—
I think the possible confusion comes about — in this case — because of others, in the past, equating the “kingdom” with being saved — in the course of rejecting Israel, and rejecting the “literal” and “real” kingdom that will be set up on earth.
I may in fact have a clouded notion about the kingdom. The clean literal interpretation is appealing. I will consider it. My preconceived judgmental attitudes are the only thing keeping me from the truth. When I pray "Thy Kingdom Come, Thy Will be Done on Earth as it Is In Heaven" It may have a new perspective.
Thanks again for the wonderful answers to my questions.
Disclaimer: Opinions posted on Free Republic are those of the individual posters and do not necessarily represent the opinion of Free Republic or its management. All materials posted herein are protected by copyright law and the exemption for fair use of copyrighted works.