Posted on 03/06/2009 9:51:50 AM PST by TaraP
to the level of a full cult.
+++
Please give us your idea of what a “half cult” is.
The Sacramental bond of the Unity of Christians
1271
Baptism constitutes the foundation of the communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: “For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church” 80
“Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn.” 81
80 UR 3.
81 UR 22 & 2. Catechism of the Catholic Church
Also
I did correct myself, more than once on this issue.
There was concern about SDA Baptism at first, for good reason.
However, the CURRENT theology of SDA seems to allow for a valid Baptism under Catholic teaching.
John 15 My prayer is not that you take them out of the world but that you protect them from the evil one. 16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of it. 17Sanctify them by the truth; your word is truth. 18 As you sent me into the world, I have sent them into the world.
Please provide the citation. I don't seem to be able to find your reference.
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
John 17: 15-18
John’s baptisms were only a precursor of Christian baptism, as the Resurrection had not occurred.
I think Jews who ignore God’s techings and yet claim to practice Judaism are apostate same as anyone else.
Islam rails on and on about apostacy...probably other religions have the same concept.
Just because Jesus spoke about love does not mean he eschewed rules as brought forth in the Old Covenant. That is sure not how I was taught.
I gather your religious view is more about the love part which is quite common in today’s Christianity which in many denominations has dropped much of the behavior attention.
I’m not sure what loving our enemies has to do with apostacy.
If a church advocates any practices glaring in contradtiction to the Bible then they are apostate....I would think....by degrees maybe. Bingo? maybe an indulgence. Human sacrifice? a real problem.
Abortion. Homosexual Marriage. and so forth.
Golden Rule folks which I guess means you often think simply a belief in God and being nice is enough.
I think that is a problem with our culture and explains the rise of liberalism in some quarters and the decline of our social structures.
And the evidence of where that leaves us is pretty obvious.
btw before you mention it, the behavior of the church leader does not mean the church is apostate by default.
Yah'shua is praying over His disciples to His Father,shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
that they may be in the world but not of the worldJohn 17YHvH's Word is truth:
15 "I do not ask You to take them out of the world, but to keep them from the evil one.
16 "They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.
17 "Sanctify them in the truth; Your word is truth.
18 "As You sent Me into the world, I also have sent them into the world.
19 "For their sakes I sanctify Myself, that they themselves also may be sanctified in truth.
20 "I do not ask on behalf of these alone, but for those also who believe in Me through their word;NAsbU Deuteronomy 5:This is not Sunday.
12 'Observe the sabbath day to keep it holy, as YHvH your Elohim commanded you.
13 'Six days you shall labor and do all your work,
14 but the seventh day is a sabbath of YHvH your Elohim;
in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter
or your male servant or your female servant or your ox or your donkey
or any of your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you,
so that your male servant and your female servant may rest as well as you.
It is true at around 321, Emperor Constantine made Sunday the day of rest for the entire Roman empire, but in doing so, he was implicitly recognizing Sunday as the day of Christian worship as the day when everyone in the ROman empire should now rest. However, Christians worshiping on Sunday was well entrenched by the mid 2nd century AD and is supported theologically using the principle of Typology whereby Old Testament persons, events, signs find their fullfillment in the person of Christ and also supported by Sacred Scriptures and Tradition as affirmed by the CHurch Fathers.
In the story of Creation recorded in Genesis, we read that God created the world and he rested, which would be the 7th day [Saturday] for Jews. However, while God rested, we do not read in Genesis the command for Adam and Eve to rest. The notion of a Sabbath and rest does not occur until Exodus 16: 23-24 where Moses states “That is what the Lord has prescribed. Tomorrow is a day of rest, the Sabbath, sacred to the Lord. You may either bake or boil the manna, as you please; but whatever is left put away and keep for tomorrow. When they put it away as Moses commanded, it did not become rotten or wormy”. Later on in Exodus 20: 8-11, we see keeping the Sabbath Holy being put into the 10 commandments.
Again, using the principle of Typology, which is the primary biblical interpretational principle in the Catholic Church whereby persons, events, signs, etc in the Old Testament are seen as prefiguring Christ and thus find their fulfillment with Christ in the New Testament, Catholic theology sees the “mana” mentioned in Exodus 16 as prefiguring Christ as the true Bread of Life (c.f. John 6:32-52). Catholic Doctrine also sees in Genesis 14:18 the priest Melchizedek offering bread and wine as pointing to Christ and his offering of bread/wine, Exodus 12: 1-20, the Passover narrative which was instituted where the Jews were commanded to eat unleavened bread and partake of the Lamb as a perpetual institution, prefigures Christ as the true Passover lamb where his offering of bread/wine becomes his body and blood; Exodus 24:6-8 where Moses sprinkles blood [pointing to the sacrifice of Christ] on the altar [symbolizing God] and the people to seal the covenant, so that God and the people are now one [in Communion]. The Psalmist would write in PS 104: 14 “you bring bread from the earth and wine to gladden our hearts” pointing to common elements used the Greco-Roman world that would prefigure Christ’s use of them at the Last supper, also connects back to Gen 14:18 and Passover (c.f. Ex 20-1-20) and in Psalm 110:4 we read “The Lord has sworn and will not waver, like Melchizedek you are a priest forever.”
In book of Malachi 1:11 we read “For from the rising of the sun to its setting, my name is great among the nations, and in every place incense is offered to my name, and a pure offering; for my name is great among the nations.” Later in Mal 4:2 we read “But for you who fear my name the sun of righteousness shall rise, with healing in its wings. You shall go forth leaping like calves from the stall.”
Reading all of the OT passages cited above in light of Christ and his actions through the principle of Typology allows us to show that Sunday worship is theologically orthodox Christian Doctrine. Christ himself criticized the rigid interpretations of the Sabbath laws that the scribes and Pharisees held (c.f. Mt 12:1-8; c.f. Mk 3:1-5). Further, Christ himself stated the Sabbath was made for man, not for God (c.f. Mk. 2:27). In addition, Catholic scholars have pointed out that when the Jewish Scholars criticized Christ for violating the Sabbath (c.f. Jn. 9:16, Jn 7:23, Mk. 3:4), Christ would always restate the Commandments and give them his divine interpretation but “He Never” restated “Keep Holy the Sabbath”. In fact, he stated “The Son of Man is Lord of the Sabbath” (c.f. Mt 12:8).
The paschal mystery [passion, death, resurrection of Christ] now becomes our theological marker to interpret all of the OT passages. On Holy Thursday at the time of Passover, Christ celebrated the Last Supper (c.f. Lk 22:14-20; Mk 14: 22-26; Mt 26:26-30) where he used bread and wine to celebrate it and commanded his apostles to due this in his memory [fulfilling the Passover (c.f. Ex 20) and fulfilling Mal 1:11 as the new and eternal covenant/sacrifice to be celebrated as a perpetual institution]. It was on the first day of the Week [Sunday] that Christ rose from the dead (c.f. John 20:1; Lk 24:1; Mt 28:1; Mk 16:9) and also on the first day of the week [Sunday] that Christ first appeared to his Apostles {c.f. John 20:19; John 20:26). It would be later on Sunday on the road to Emmaus that Christ would make himself known through the breaking of the bread and that is how the Apostles recognized him as the Risen Christ [c.f. Luke 24: 13-35].
From the New Testament itself, we see that “Sunday” became associated with the Day of the Lord and even Christ himself [fulfilling Malachi 4:2] and thus became the day the early Church gathered and celebrated the Eucharist. For example, we see in Acts 2:42 an illustration of early Church communal life (i.e. worship) where the Christian community gathered to break bread. Later in Acts 20:7, we see Sunday being the day identified as the day to celebrate the Eucharist as we read “On the first day of the week, when we gathered to break bread…” Revelation 1:10 also gives an image of being caught up in spirit on the Lord’s Day [Sunday]. Also, St. Paul who did not want Gentile Christians to have to follow the Jewish customs does not seem to take keeping the Sabbath as being important so Jewish Christians keeping the Sabbath was fine as long as they did not mandate Gentile Christians to have to keep it (c.f. Romans 14: 5-6). However, as eventually Jewish Christians would be expelled from the synagogue and more and more Christian converts were Gentiles, and when you consider the other biblical texts pointing to Sunday as the Day of the Lord, it became very clear in the Early Church, based on both the NT itself and theological development that indeed Sunday was the day of worship
A few examples here should illustrate this point. For example, in the Didache 14: 1 [90-100 AD] cited from Fr. Jurgens Faith of our Fathers Volume 1 page 4 it states “On the Lord’s Day of the Lord gather together, break bread and give thanks after confessing your transgressions so that your sacrifice may be pure.”; St. Ignatius of Antioch writing to the Magnesians (107 AD 8:1) states “Do not be lead astray by other doctrines nor by old fables which are worthless. For if we have been living now according to Judaism, we must confess that we have not received Grace…..If, then, those who walked by ancient customs came to a new hope, no longer sabathing buy living by the Lord’s Day, on which we came to life through him and through His Death—which some deny…”
St. Justin Martyr writing around 155 AD writes “On the Day dedicated to the Sun, all who dwell in the city or country gather in the same place… St. Justin goes on to outline a Liturgy where by the Scriptures are read, the presider/celebrant preaches a homily/sermon and then the presider gives thanks (eucharistian) and then gives those assembled the Eucharist, etc.
In closing, Sunday worship, when is part of Apostolic Tradition and is attested to by the both Sacred Scripture and Tradition and when seen in the context of the person of Christ, is theologically orthodox and is thus the appropriate day for Christians to worship God, which in the Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Tradition, is the celebration of the Holy Eucharist consistent with Christ’s commands and recorded in the Acts of the Apostles and supported by the writings of the Apostolic Church Fathers.
Regards
****I was thinking of attending there worship. I have admired many of thier teachings on Sabbath Observance Healthy Living, Chatiable Giving and Prophetic teachings. However I am not sure if all thier doctrine is sound. ***
Any church whose members will not get off their dead butts on a Saturday sabbath and help two little lost children caught out in a rainstorm is not worth calling “Christian.” that is what happened here last year.
The children were soaked when they came to my door asking for help, having been rebuffed at five (5) SDA houses.
And yes, I am STILL mad about it and their smug attitude of “I’m better than you because I keep the Sabbath!”
I can see how you might suspect me of Christianity-lite from the post. I happen to belong to a very strict church well known for its stances against immorality, homosexuality and such and I support those stands. My discussion of the “love” part of the Savior’s teachings is that He called us to live a higher standard than that espoused by the Ten Commandments. Without in any way denigrating the Ten Commandments, one could follow those commandments and have lousy attitudes, even hatred in your heart at the same time. Christ focused on helping us see that our attitudes—the way we thought about and prayed about others—was as important as our outward behavior towards them. The Ten Commandments are a stepping stone valid today as well as then, but Christ used His ministry to pull up upwards towards loving others. However, by no means did He preach we were to tolerate or excuse sin in our midst. My church is quite active in excommunicating members but we consider it an act of love by helping call them back to repentance and helping them literally start over with a new baptism if they so choose to do so. If they choose not to do so, then they are prohibited from partaking of the Lord’s Supper, from speaking out in church and from any type of leadership position within the church.
No, I am not from a wimpy church. But, without clarifying the Ten Commandments from later scriptures, those commandments say nothing about the Atonement, the organization of Christ’s church upon the earth, salvation, mercy and justice. We need more than the Ten Commandments upon which to judge a church or person.
Mat 12:37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.
Joh 5:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life.
Rom 10:9 That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.
Act 2:47 Praising God, and having favor with all the people. And the Lord added to the church daily such as should be saved.
Rom 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Rom 5:9 Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.
Gal 2:16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.
Pretty conclusive...Cut and dried...No baptism...No justification in baptism...
The word of God disagrees with your plan of salvation and church membership...So what has the legitimate authority, your church or the word of God???
You are theologically illiterate.
Therefore, your interpretation, as an illiterate, may be safely ignored.
You can repeat words without knowing what the words mean.
Also, you seem to think that if I say:
I have red marbles
And
I have yellow marbles -—
that, somehow, this is PROOF that I do not have red marbles!
You fail at language and at logic.
You are not even close as far as theology experts go.
Training in that area comes AFTER you have mastered language and logic.
I would also direct you to: “Peter, you are rock, and upon this rock I will build my Church, whatsoever you bind on Earth shall be bound in Heaven, whatsoever you loose on Earth shall be loosed in Heaven”
Pretty straight forward that the Church DOES have authority.
Hey, the apostles argued with each other.
The Early Church was in constant argument, hence all of the various councils.
I do not think it wise to judge faith my my own lights, alone.
However, just because some misguided person, like you, can not think clearly, and can not understand that ALL of the giants and Apostles and Saints of the early Church had disagreements, is no reason for me to be doubtful of the consensus of informed truth passed down through the ages.
You are making ignorant translations, out of context, with very very little theological basis.
Training in that area comes AFTER you have mastered language and logic.
So I have to become a master at the original language, and philosophy...And THEN, I can move on to consider theology...
I didn't know that...
Funny, Jesus never mentioned that...
Oh, and since I'm in a learning process here, interpret those verses I posted and give me a clear meaning of what they really say, would ya???
Yah’shua is praying over His disciples to His Father,
that they may be in the world but not of the world
Duh
The SDAs I know are very nice people and strict adherents to their faith, sabbath, etc. But, each and every one of them are unabashed liberals, which I can’t figure out.
Duh,
Or do you worship on the Pagan Day of the Sun ? Do you keep holy Shabbat ?
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
I honestly don’t care which day people choose to worship. I’m glad that they do.
The historical records seems to indicate that gentile Christians preferred Sunday as a way of differentiating them from the Jews, although Jesus was a Jew, of course.
Did God change the day? I don’t think so. Is the actual day what matters? I’m not sure I have an opinion on that.
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