Posted on 06/21/2008 3:41:29 PM PDT by NYer
Honestly, I don’t think so (at least not yet).
We have been much closer than before. For example, when the hordes of Islam almost destroyed Christendom, or the time of the Black Death.
We are not that close yet.
He may be, but that doesn’t mean it will be the end of the world.
The US may fall, and probably will soon, but that doesn’t mean the world will end.
Gog is the region north of Iran, in many of the former Soviet republics.
How ironic and theologically inconsistent for the son of a well-known dispensationalist who founded a dispensationalist university to take an OT verse intended for Israel (by their reckoning) and apply it to the modern Church.
After all, the Church is not Israel (according to their reckoning) and there is nothing in the NT which says that Christians are to "pray for the peace of Jerusalem".
On the contrary, when Jesus wept for Jerusalem it was in the context of sure and swift judgment against that nation for the collective sin of murdering the prophets and the "son of the landowner" (a parabolic image of Christ). That very judgment happened in AD70. The kingdom was taken from that nation and given to another (Matt. 21:43).
Dispensationalists see the future through the lens of physical Israel. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the true eschaton and that history is only properly understood from the vantage point of the King of kings who presently reigns from the throne of David in heaven where He is in the process of subduing all the nations by His Spirit through the gospel.
Now, as far as having a ‘godlier’ society, the only way that's going to happen is if man is taken OUT of the position of ruler of any sort. That will happen in the thousand-year reign of Christ at His return. Theocracy only works if there really is a God, and He really is present and in charge.
Now, I'm not worried about it being the last days at this point. Why? One big reason is the Temple. There isn't one. Until the Temple gets re-built, there's not going to be anything for an “abomination that causes desolation” to go in and defile. The muslims still have that thrice-cursed Dome of the Rock on the Temple Mount in Jerusalem...which is where the Jews want to build the Temple. Now, as I understand it, there are storage areas where prefabricated sections of the Temple have already been constructed (can't remember where I heard that) and are awaiting the ‘go’ order to build it. I also know that there is currently a school in Israel that is training young men about the temple and how to conduct sacrifices and worship. I have seen photographs of Temple utensils that have already been made and are ready to use when the time comes. But not yet...because of that pesky golden-domed mosque that's sitting right where the Israelis want to build that Temple.
With the current unrest and the continuing problems with Iran, and the justifiable fear that those loons are going to try to make good on their promise to erase Israel from the map, it could be that events will suddenly speed up very quickly, and we'll have a scenario on our hands that could truly signal the last days. Say that Iran attacks. The Israelis decide "Screw it", and decide that cohabitation of the temple Mount is no longer a good idea. They call in an air strike and blow that Dome straight to Hell. The Israeli Army comes in with combat engineers and a couple battalions of ground troop to clean up and secure the Temple Mount. Construction begins on the Temple....Hello, Last Days.
I'm not going to get into the "Rapture/No Rapture" argument here, as I am still up in the air on that one. All I know is that once the ball gets rolling you better be darned sure you know which side you're on.
Me too. I'm tired of paying these bills. And we won't have to endure any more of this campaign or a possible Obama Administration.
The NT teaching is that the "last days" had arrived in the 1st century (Acts 2:17; 1 John 2:18). While in context the "last days" related directly to the last days of the old covenant economy of national Israel, in a real sense we've been in the last days for 2000 years.
There is no biblical evidence to support this assertion. In the OT "Gog" is identified as a person, not a place. And in the NT, the phrase "Gog and Magog" refers to the enemies of God’s people "from the four corners of the earth" (Rev. 20:8).
“Dispensationalists see the future through the lens of physical Israel. The Bible teaches that Jesus Christ is the true eschaton and that history is only properly understood from the vantage point of the King of kings who presently reigns from the throne of David in heaven where He is in the process of subduing all the nations by His Spirit through the gospel.” ~ topcat54
“Presently reigns”, is right. The “end of the age” began when Christ the Savior (the messiah) came into the world. He began his reign when he “returned” and sat down at the right hand of the Father.
Between WorldNutDaily ... http://worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=48062
John Hagee...
http://pjmiller.wordpress.com/2007/10/18/jesus-did-not-come-to-be-the-messiah/
and AIG, Ken Ham & his museum (6000 yr.old earth/children played with dinosaurs)... http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/news/1620585/posts?page=27#27
Falwell’s son is just one more embarrassment to the more spirtitually mature, orthodox Christian Church.
2 posted on June 21, 2008 4:43:02 PM MDT by NYer
It would only begin when members of the SanhedrinThe only Feast commanded by YHvH for which
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
we do not know the day nor hour is The Feast of Trumpets.
observed three stars and the new crescent moon.
Cognitive dissonance: "The mental confusion / psychological conflict that results from holding polar opposite attitudes, ideas, and beliefs simultaneously."
Of course, that reality doesn't embarrass the non-thinking sheep in the guru-trusting amen corner in the least. :)
People who have been indoctrinated / brain-washed are impervious to the idea that such a thing has taken place "in their case", however.
This link is only for those NOT suffering from cognitive dissonance.
By the rabbis’ reckoning. Not the Bible.
The notion that Jesus will return on one of the feast days according to a system that passed away 2000 years ago and only exists (in highly modified form) among those who refuse to acknowledge His first coming is unsupportable from the Bible. The Sanhedrin passed away with that same system 2000 years ago.
Suppose it is cloudy that evening? Christ's timetable is not dependent upon the will of men.
XS> It would only begin when members of the Sanhedrin observed three stars and the new crescent moon.
By the rabbis’ reckoning. Not the Bible.
The notion that Jesus will return on one of the feast days according to a system that passed away 2000 years ago and only exists (in highly modified form) among those who refuse to acknowledge His first coming is unsupportable from the Bible. The Sanhedrin passed away with that same system 2000 years ago.
Suppose it is cloudy that evening? Christ's timetable is not dependent upon the will of men.
53 posted on June 23, 2008 10:00:56 AM MDT by topcat54
Apparently you are unaware that the Sanhedrin was reconstituted in 2005 The notion that the Holy Feast Day of YHvH, the creator of the universe, Man made churches have rejected the Commanded Holy Feast Days of YHvH Your point about a cloudy day is prescient which is precisely why it can only be the Your are correct and pedantic; according to the Holy Word of G-d
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
it is on the first day of the month of Tishri. "Speak to the children of Israel, saying: 'In the seventh month,
Who better to be the human arbiter than the Sanhedrin and they have
on the first day of the month, you shall have a sabbath-rest,
a memorial of blowing of trumpets, a holy convocation"
determined that the day begins when three stars are sighted.
after 1600 years.
have passed away is absurd at best.
and replaced them with Pagan holidays.
Holy Feast Day of the Feast of Trumpets as "we will never know the day nor hour".
Here is some of what the Roman Catholic saint John Chrysostom preached the following in 387 A.D.: The festivals of the pitiful and miserable Jews are soon to march upon us one after the other and in quick succession: the feast of Trumpets, the feast of Tabernacles, the fasts. There are many in our ranks who say they think as we do. Yet some of these are going to watch the festivals and others will join the Jews in keeping their feasts and observing their fasts. I wish to drive this perverse custom from the Church right now...If the Jewish ceremonies are venerable and great, ours are lies...Does God hate their festivals and do you share in them? He did not say this or that festival, but all of them together. (John Chrysostom. Homily I Against the Jews I:5;VI:5;VII:2. Preached at Antioch, Syria in the Fall of 387 AD. Medieval Sourcebook: Saint John Chrysostom (c.347-407) : Eight Homilies Against the Jews. Fordham University. http://www.fordham.edu/halsall/source/chrysostom-jews6.html 12/10/05). John Chrysostom preached against the Fall holy days then, because some who professed Christ were observing them. It is interesting to note that he must have realized that the second century church kept Passover the same time as the Jews did (this was even true in the early second century in Rome). And that the Catholic Church still kept Pentecost when he wrote that. Hence it is unclear why he railed against some "feasts of the Jews" and not others. Those who continue to observe these days do not consider that they are Jewish Feasts, but that they are biblical feasts of God, citing Leviticus 23:1 where God calls them "My feasts".Perhaps you agree with John Chrysostom
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
People who observe the Feast of Trumpets have sometimes been subject to ridicule or condemnation.
from Wiki on the Feast of Trumpets ( Christian Holiday)
By whose authority? Since the leadership of Israel is no longer in covenant relationship with the triune God, they have no right to speak on spiritual matters. They are still in spiritual rebellion and have no authority. They are no different than your local Moose Lodge.
They have already proved that they cannot properly interpret the Word of God since they refuse to acknowledge the very One who is the entire focus of the Law and Prophets.
The notion that the Holy Feast Day of YHvH, the creator of the universe, have passed away is absurd at best.
Not as absurd as trying to follow ersatz "old covenant" laws without authorization from God. The Church has recognized the folly of this sort of attempt for 2000 years. Virtually all Christians get it. Painting the universal Church as theological imbeciles on this matter won’t help your cause since it is already tenuous at best.
Your point about a cloudy day is prescient
My point about the cloudy day demonstrates the absurdity of looking to men for times and seasons wrt Christ’s return.
I think Chrysostom was essentially correct in his assessment.
It's rather odd, don't you think, that whereas God gave very definite and precise instructions for the observance of the feast days under the ceremonial laws given to old covenant, national Israel, He failed to give His new covenant people, the Church, any instruction for the ongoing keeping of these feast days since AD70.
In fact, you would be the very first to rail against the Roman Catholic keeping of Easter (aka Passover) and Pentecost, when in fact all they are doing is being consistent with holiday keeping in the absence of specific God-given rules about how to keep these days without a temple, Levites, or sacrifices. So the Roman Catholics fall back on their Magisterium to make the rules, whereas you rely on the rabbis. But there’s nothing in the Bible to help either of you out.
While Chrysostom and some of the early Church fathers may have been a bit inconsistent at times, they were in no way as erroneous as those today who call for a return to the old covenant system as augmented by the rabbis.
Waiting for the end of the world doesn’t pay much. But just think of the job security!!!
I will not respond to your rabid antisemitism.
Since this is an Ecumenical ( read: entrapment ) thread,
shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua HaMashiach Adonai
NAsbU Matthew 25:40 "The King will answer and say to them,
You will have to stand before the creator of the universe yourself.
'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did it to one of
these brothers of Mine, even the least of them, you did it to
Me.'
I'm afraid you confuse biblical integrity and consistency with anti-semitism. It's a poor tactic.
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