Posted on 06/21/2008 6:51:53 AM PDT by P-Marlowe
For edification and discussion
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Yesterday was easy. Today's is a challenge. We'll give you till Monday before we post chapter 12
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You are not kidding.
I find that using an audible reading software program really helps when reading difficult passages. You can read along and listen at the same time.
Here is a FREE program that works really well.
I recently bought the upgrade and the voices are much better and more natural than the free one, but I've used the free reader for years. I paid $69 for the upgrade, and now its on sale for $49. Bummer.
Well .. I’m sticking with what the Bible says, “Jesus was GOD in the flesh”.
And .. I don’t care to argue about it.
Sighted people "think" in images.. maybe even unsighted people too.. Mental images.. mental constructs.. or even metaphorical illusions(parables etc.) to constructs.. My experience is images are better than words.. and words used to greatest effect display images.. and words that do not display images are wandering looking for meaning.. I am always brought back to the observer problem.. The observer sees images.. real or imagined.. Thats what an observer observes is an image.. else he is trying to describe an image to another observer.. That could be where 2nd reality's come from.. "or something like that" LoL....
He sure went into the discussion of images in a deep way.. I myself have struggled with understanding "images", "idols", "worship", "images vs words" for a good while now.. After all the Bible is basically words describing images.. Images of one concept or another.. Thats what a metaphor is, is a word picture or image of something, some concept.. I have also noticed that many that do not "GET" the Bible do so because they miss the metaphorical or direct image being spoken about..
All in all the discussion above on "images" and "imaging".. is a good one.. The words in the Bible are far deeper than the mere words.. if you "get" the imaging... Must be why Jesus spoke in parables(metaphors) much of the time.. i.e. to describe the spirit/Spirit and spiritual things which is "like the wind".. A thread on Biblical IMAGERY might be a productive pursuit for all..
Then a blind man would be incapable of observing.
Faith comes by HEARING! Not seeing.
A blind person, IS, capable of observing(mentally).. What about the hearing impaired?.. They are just as capable of imaging as the blind are.. For whether seeing, not seeing, hearing or not hearing mental images are what words are all about.. UNLESS when facing the metaphor "its raining cats and dogs" you run to the window to see pets falling.. Imaging trumps the eyes of the beholder..
The observer can see with his mind/spirit/soul.. An observer can also see things that are not there with his mind/spirit/soul.. Mental constructs are the end result of ALL observation..
That said.. the Holy Spirit is the decerning factor.. the trump card, the wild card.. that can enlighten ANY image.. He can enlighten the Bible(or anything else) to correct images and expose any false images.. Whether seeing, hearing or impaired physically in many ways.. the Holy Spirit can provide right images.. Must be why we need the Holy Spirit.. For human oberservers can get it WRONG so many ways.. seeing, hearing OR NOT..
People(humans) seeking God can come up with the bizaar or even beautiful but wrong images.. Just look at all the religions on this planet.. Even within the christian sphere cultic images can be observed and CODIFIED.. I return to John ch 10 for the answer to this human dilema(sheep pens)..
To wit; What do YOU know/image for sure?.. Are you imaging 100% correctly?.. Who can say yes?.. Thats WHY we even HAVE the Holy SPirit to come alongside to "help" us(paraclete).. One of his abilitys(HS), I think, is image correction.. or enlightment, or "vision", or showing you a different way to "SEE" things.. Like Jesus did with parables..
See what I mean.. this subject is quite deep.. little wonder Calvin spent so much verbage on it.. Would be wise, I think, to take his words to heart and consider them.. and MORE thoughly even.. How does imaging effect us in our spiritual lives?.. When an image becomes hardened in our mind/spirit/soul we just may be worshipping that image.. no matter what it is.. it then becomes an idol, maybe, probably.. I like this subject.. To look at images simplisitically is error I beleive.. We NEED images, but not as idols...
Jeepers, hosepipe, what a profound image you present here! And so beautiful!
It has been said that "beauty is truth." If so, then you are definitely standing on firm ground.
Kudos dearest brother in Christ.
You raise the observer problem. Indeed, this problem cannot be separated from the way we see the world we live in under any conditions whatsoever. But as an observer, it seems to me that you see things from a wider, spiritual perspective than many people do today.
I definitely think and believe that you are on "the right track."
Thank you so much for your beautiful essay/post!
Man has a remarkable ability to imagine things that do not yet exist and then capture those imaginings in blueprints that become structures, designs that become technology, sheet music, literature, art, recipes and so on - so many things that enrich our lives.
But that same fertile imagination can also get him into deep spiritual error - or mental illness - if he has more confidence in his imaginings than he should.
Images are also a form of language. The Egyptians of course used hieroglyphics - and Oriental languages are graphic. Even in photography, we speak in the images we choose to make and likewise, images made by others can speak to us.
In Scripture, imagery illuminates us in the form of parables, prophesies and Truth taught by "acting out:"
For my people have committed two evils; they have forsaken me the fountain of living waters, [and] hewed them out cisterns, broken cisterns, that can hold no water. - Jeremiah 2:13
And I beheld, and, lo, in the midst of the throne and of the four beasts, and in the midst of the elders, stood a Lamb as it had been slain, having seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven Spirits of God sent forth into all the earth. - Revelation 5:6
And he spake many things unto them in parables, saying, Behold, a sower went forth to sow; And when he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the fowls came and devoured them up: Some fell upon stony places, where they had not much earth: and forthwith they sprung up, because they had no deepness of earth: And when the sun was up, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away. And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprung up, and choked them: But other fell into good ground, and brought forth fruit, some an hundredfold, some sixtyfold, some thirtyfold. Who hath ears to hear, let him hear. - Matthew 13:3-9
I [am] the LORD thy God, which have brought thee out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.
Thou shalt have no other gods before me.
Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness [of any thing] that [is] in heaven above, or that [is] in the earth beneath, or that [is] in the water under the earth: Thou shalt not bow down thyself to them, nor serve them: for I the LORD thy God [am] a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children unto the third and fourth [generation] of them that hate me; And shewing mercy unto thousands of them that love me, and keep my commandments. - Exodus 20:1-6
To God be the glory!
"WE" some of us have gone over the observer problem in detail from many angles, in many threads of logic on FR.. John Calvin is doing the same here from his own perpective.. He seems to have a disgust for idols and idolotry.. and is approaching images from that angle.. Idols are indeed images, "sometimes"..
Sometimes they are mental images.. sometimes they are thingly.. Surely he(Calvin) doesnt see everything 100% clearly, after all who does?.. Well alright some think they do.. But I don't think Calvin feels/felt that way.. But he does notice when some images(of different kinds) appear to be idols or even images that are given too much ugh!.. reverence.. No doubt about that, some humans idolize stuff.. from youth to old age.. And they can be tricked into idolotry appearing as actions or activity.. Even christians of various stripes.. and even JEWS.. <- slap my mouth.. LoL..
There is no getting away from images in a humans life.. even if blind AND/or deaf.. I am reminded of when, the very Apostles, argued among themselves.. who would be greatest in "heaven".. No doubt Jesus was rolling his eyes and making noises.. Then he got a little child and said unless they became as one of THESE, they would never even SEE heaven.. LoL.. Children LOVE images.. dreams are images.. imagination can be images.. Children imagine what they don't have words to explain..
Some images can be "evil", I know many that are.. Idolotry is evil and anthromorphizes God many times or even replaces him, which is the evil part.. Some assemblys replace the Holy Spirit.. So images "can" be evil.. I think we as humans deal more with images than with things.. Before an image becomes God(idol) we/someone imagines a image first I think.. That is what Calvin is reacting to probably.. Who can fault him?.. I rather say we humans need to discern the spiritual images correctly, not that we should be afraid of images.. For parables speak of an image.. a word picture of an image.. I know people that treat the Bible as a magic book(a talisman), thereby worshipping it, more or less.. and others that treat other things as talismans.. John Calvin is reacting to the same kind of thing, I suppose..
Could be we will not need fleshly eyes to see, or fleshly ears to hear, or flesh to feel, or even a tongue to taste in the great by and by( I Cor 2;9).. After all taste is a kind of observation.. A whole nother sphere of observation.. The observation problem may be solved.. It could be... with better "tools" to observe with.. And the images(then) could be richer, deeper, more robust, more connected, and maybe even more colorful and nuanced.. Image Boredom may become obsolete..
No kidding.. About images I used to have a cateract in my left eye.. could see nothing for several years.. A doctor just replaced BOTH lenses in both eyes.. NOW I can see as good(now) as I could when I was twenty.. I had 20/40 then.. MY PLACE IS JUNK YARD!>>. LoL.. I can now see every dust bunny and small speck of thread on the rug.. I have become a PIG.. LoL.. I have "stuff" stashed in every corner like a pack rat.. Don't tell me good vision or imaging don't make a difference.. LoL.. WHAT A MESS.. I will be cleaning for a week.. maybe longer..
I mention this because spiritually "your vision" is the same.. SOme seem to have cataracts.. Not all cataracts completely occlude vision.. I guess I put things in corners and couldnt really see them well.. I wondered why my rug almost never got dirty.. LoL.. I thought I just being very clean.. WRONGO spongo.. If our spiritual vision is not very clear we can overlook things that others with better "VISION" plainly see but are embarrased to mention.. or mention in an unkind way.. I think we can pray for the Holy Spirit to give us a spiritual lense replacement..
If he did, It could/might make you see that you are such a pig though in some ways.. You know spiritually.. Anyway discerning images even SEEING images to discern may be according to the quality of your "vision"..
If we(I) could see that better it could make us(ME)a little kinder in our approach to others.. They just may not see what we see(or think we see) very clearly.. I think I'm preaching to myself!!!.. Ugh Oh!.. that is all.. I heard me..
Excellent Scriptures, of course . . .
and commentary . . . of course.
Thx.
As in your cataract experience, a person’s concept of what is “real” is often his own imagining guided by what is voluntarily or involuntarily allowed to enter his mind, his perceptions.
Another example would be how people “suspend reality” when watching a movie. So much so, some people suffer with the characters – often crying as if the tragedy portrayed in the imagery actually happened to them.
And some people, sadly, prefer the fantasy over reality and never quite return their perceptions from the suspension. Some Star Wars fans might believe deep down that there is such a thing as midichlorines, some Michael Moore fans might believe his constructs are reality and so on.
Truly, Obama's entire campaign is based on a suspension of reality. And people are buying it, lock, stock and barrel.
Returning for a moment to the “observer problem” – it seems to me that precious few are aware of the (involuntary) limitations of mortal vision and mind.
Our eyes and minds are limited to four dimensional perception – three of space and one of time. That doesn’t mean other dimensions do not exist, or that the spiritual realm doesn't exist --- only that we do not perceive them in the normal course of mortal life. Thus physicists have a tendency to think of time in absolute terms and as an arrow when they should know better, i.e. that space/time is warped. And even some professed Christians and theologians speak of God as if He is a hypothesis.
In my view, being “anchored” to this physical realm (riding a donkey in your metaphor) puts us on this side of the firmament that separates between the spiritual and physical, the heavenly and the earthy. We are grounded by both voluntary and involuntary limitations on our perceptions. But spiritual beings do not have the limitations that we “perceive” to be “real.”
I have given them thy word; and the world hath hated them, because they are not of the world, even as I am not of the world. – John 17:14
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. – Colossians 3:3
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and [of] the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. - John 3:5-6
So also [is] the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body. And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit. – I Corinthians 15:42-45
Be not forgetful to entertain strangers: for thereby some have entertained angels unawares. – Hebrews 13:2
And after six days Jesus taketh [with him] Peter, and James, and John, and leadeth them up into an high mountain apart by themselves: and he was transfigured before them. And his raiment became shining, exceeding white as snow; so as no fuller on earth can white them. And there appeared unto them Elias with Moses: and they were talking with Jesus. And Peter answered and said to Jesus, Master, it is good for us to be here: and let us make three tabernacles; one for thee, and one for Moses, and one for Elias. For he wist not what to say; for they were sore afraid. And there was a cloud that overshadowed them: and a voice came out of the cloud, saying, This is my beloved Son: hear him. And suddenly, when they had looked round about, they saw no man any more, save Jesus only with themselves. - Mark 9:2-8
Then the same day at evening, being the first [day] of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came Jesus and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace [be] unto you. – John 20:19
Kant argued that all we human beings ever do is deal with the images of things, and never with the things in themselves. This is due to the nature of visual perception, which sees only the surface image of the thing, and then the stereoscopic effect of two-eyed sight kicks in and endues the 2D surface image with the semblance of three-dimensional extension.
LOL!!! But this probably wasn't what you were getting at, dear 'pipe. Still I find Kant's observation highly interesting. :^)
Thank you so much for this interesting insight, dearest sister in Christ!
Thank you so very much for sharing your testimony and insights, dear brother in Christ!
As in your cataract experience, a person’s concept of what is “real” is often his own imagining guided by what is voluntarily or involuntarily allowed to enter his mind, his perceptions.
Another example would be how people “suspend reality” when watching a movie. So much so, some people suffer with the characters – often crying as if the tragedy portrayed in the imagery actually happened to them.
And some people, sadly, prefer the fantasy over reality and never quite return their perceptions from the suspension. Some Star Wars fans might believe deep down that there is such a thing as midichlorines, some Michael Moore fans might believe his constructs are reality and so on.
Truly, Obama’s entire campaign is based on a suspension of reality. And people are buying it, lock, stock and barrel.
Returning for a moment to the “observer problem” – it seems to me that precious few are aware of the (involuntary) limitations of mortal vision and mind.
Our eyes and minds are limited to four dimensional perception – three of space and one of time. That doesn’t mean other dimensions do not exist, or that the spiritual realm doesn’t exist -— only that we do not perceive them in the normal course of mortal life. Thus physicists have a tendency to think of time in absolute terms and as an arrow when they should know better, i.e. that space/time is warped. And even some professed Christians and theologians speak of God as if He is a hypothesis.
In my view, being “anchored” to this physical realm (riding a donkey in your metaphor) puts us on this side of the firmament that separates between the spiritual and physical, the heavenly and the earthy. We are grounded by both voluntary and involuntary limitations on our perceptions. But spiritual beings do not have the limitations that we “perceive” to be “real.”
Very well put with excellent Scriptural support.
Thx.
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