Concerning the great harlot of revelation

The great harlot of revelations | 6 08 008 | Clifford Randles

[ravenwolf]

The commandment says to keep the sabaath day holy, ( not the exact words ) but there is no commandment to pay tithes.

[ravenwolf]

Ps I do not think there is any law to worship on a certain day, but I still do not see any law that changed the sabaath to sunday either.

[ravenwolf]

Thats right.

[ravenwolf]

You have it right down to the letter and I certainly agree, but many of the christian churches still call it tithe,s
I will not mention any church because for one reason i like the people, and i would not do that any way, but a member of one church said they told him he was behind on tithe,s
and he quit the church for that reason, he did read the bible

[ravenwolf]

you have my agreement on that, in fact I wish i could have thought of that. thank you

[uptoolate]

Ps I do not think there is any law to worship on a certain day,

Yes and no. Defining of terms is in order. Worship can be defined many ways. Tithing is worship. Singing is worship. Giving thanks is worship. presenting your bodies a living and holy sacrifice, acceptable to God, which is your spiritual service of worship. (same Greek word used for service as is used for worship.) Praying is worship. Is there a "certain" day designated for praying? Yes! Pray without ceasing! The certain day would be every day!

These are not called upon to be done on a "certain" day, but are to be done in the time frame that is implied by the first commandment, which would be all the time, which is the "certain" time in this instance.

If you are defining the term "worship" as what the church does when it assembles corporately, then that falls under the commandment of not forsaking the assembly of the Saints, which for many will be, Sunday, Wednesday, Saturday, or anytime the Body unites to feed from the Spirit and edify itself through the Word, and encouraging one another, and bearing each others burdens, etc.

We have freedom in Christ in that we are not bound by the Levitical Law. The moral law we fulfill by being bound (as slaves) to Christ, with His righteousness applied to our souls. If we love Him, we will obey His commands. His command is to work six days, and rest on the seventh day. His wording from the start did not say which days those six would be and which days the seventh would be. If we can rely whole heartedly on the Hebrews to have not obscured to the slightest degree the tradition of the seventh day being from Friday at sundown to Saturday at sundown, then the Jewish Sabbath would be correct technically.

But since the Jews, according to their historical accounts, have been out of the will of God more that in it, I can't put all of my trust in them to have kept the calendar accurate. Close, but not accurate.

Thus I will put my faith in Christ's own words in that the Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath.

To pursue arguments in the Body to the point of being Pharisaical and lacking spiritual value can only be a spirit of division and of Satan.

[ravenwolf]

Good thinking, every day is the lords day, all I am doubting is that any one has the right to change the sabaath to sunday and I doubt the authority of the Christian Chruch to collect tithe,s and many or most of them do claim that authority, also even though I bad mouth the scribes and pharisee,s ( and I should not do that ) we need to acknowledge if not for them we would not have the old or the new testament. Our lord had a lot to say about them and most of it was not good, The religious leaders of his day were ( in my opinion ) living high on the hog preaching the laws of a God that they only partly or maby did not believe in. are many of the preachers of our day doing the same thing?

In stJohn ch 10 verse 12 and 13 Christ,s own words
But he that is an hireling and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are, seeth the wolf come,and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catheth them, and scattereth the sheep.
14
The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep.

I know what it means for the wolf to come or for it to be at your door, that phrase used to be used guite often, hunger, empty pockets, bare pantrys, and it can also mean other types of enemies.

I have seen preachers guit a church and go to another one because they could get more money, and these were men who were guite able to work.

Many preachers try to interpret freely in a different sense, but I think it speaks for its self.

So if anyone can show me the law from the new testament,( in plain words ) that the christian church, has the authority to change the sabaath to sunday or have the authority to collect tithes, then I will believe it, even if they are preachers for hire.

I believe that the church should only have the doctrines that are plain and to the point, but they do not stop there and thats why there are so many of them that has different
doctrines, and i believe it is the job of any christian to insist that they stick to what the Bible says rather than to make gospel out of thier own conclusions.

If 100 people interpret a scripture a 100 ways then there is a very good posibility 100 are wrong and at least 99.

And I really do appreciate getting common sense and acurate
comments from you, Thanks

[nodumbblonde]

So if anyone can show me the law from the new testament,( in plain words ) that the christian church, has the authority to change the sabaath to sunday

I'm not seeing where Christ (after his crucifixion), by word or example tells his followers to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

If you're going to try to keep the law, you can't pick and choose which parts you want to keep. You MUST keep them ALL. If you're going to follow the Sabbath laws, you must also follow the tithing laws. And every single commandment, law, and ordinance given to the Jews.

James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.

You're either saved by grace or by the law. You can't mix them.

Galatians 2:21 - "I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain."

[Seven_0]

The commandment says to keep the sabaath day holy, ( not the exact words ) but there is no commandment to pay tithes.

Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

[Seven_0]

thanks for the reply, but as you said Abram gave him a tenth of everything,

Not paid. if people wants to give, there is no problem.

Heb 7:6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

Note that the tenth part that Abraham gave to Melchisedec was considered a tithe and it was also charged to Levi.

Heb 7:9-10 And as I may so say, Levi also, who receiveth tithes, payed tithes in Abraham. For he was yet in the loins of his father, when Melchisedec met him.

[Future Snake Eater]

I have been to many church,s trying to learn and they all claim that the bible is the last word but I do not see anything in the bible that permits the christian church,s to collect tithe,s

I point you to Malachi 3:6-12...

6 "I the LORD do not change. So you, O descendants of Jacob, are not destroyed.
7 Ever since the time of your forefathers you have turned away from my decrees and have not kept them. Return to me, and I will return to you," says the LORD Almighty. "But you ask, 'How are we to return?'
8 "Will a man rob God? Yet you rob me. "But you ask, 'How do we rob you?' "In tithes and offerings.
9 You are under a curse—the whole nation of you—because you are robbing me.
10 Bring the whole tithe into the storehouse, that there may be food in my house. Test me in this," says the LORD Almighty, "and see if I will not throw open the floodgates of heaven and pour out so much blessing that you will not have room enough for it.
11 I will prevent pests from devouring your crops, and the vines in your fields will not cast their fruit," says the LORD Almighty.
12 "Then all the nations will call you blessed, for yours will be a delightful land," says the LORD Almighty.

[Seven_0]

but it was my view that they done this in respect of the sabaath or in respect of the resurection, however I have not been showed any law that changed the law.

The Sabbath has always been the seventh day of the week and still is. As far as changing the law, there is no need. The promise to Abraham came before the law just as Abraham’s tithes came before the law.

Gal 3:17-18 And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect. For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.

[uptoolate]

I believe that the church should only have the doctrines that are plain and to the point,

There is a difference between "doctrine" and a collectively agreed upon "church policy" within the local congregation.

We don't practice the Sabbath. Our church policy is to "assemble the Saints" for the purposes stated in the New Testament.

We don't practice "tithing". Our church policy is to take "an offering" to support the costs associated with ministry.

These policies are set forth by the members of the congregation in our local body. They have to do with the physical workings of the church.

"Doctrines" per say, would be the code of beliefs, or teachings that deal on a spiritual plane concerning man and his spirit, God and His Spirit, and the relationship between the two.

These doctrines would cover things such as the doctrine of grace, doctrine of the Trinity, doctrine of salvation, doctrine of redemption, propitiation, sanctification, etc. These would be the things that Paul warned Timothy to protect, and to teach the Elders to protect.

Things such as the collection of gifts, dates and times for assembling, when and how often the Bread and Cup are partaken of, naming of the church, type or form of church government, location of and how large of building, color of the walls, etc., are not directly commanded in a specific way in the New Testament.

We have freedom to be ourselves and express our preferences, and not be mind numbed robots or slip into a ritualistic form of church. This helps the church from getting into the same-ol' same-ol' frame of mind. If the walls in your church being blue kind of lull you into lethargy, then paint them green! What a great God we have to know us so well!!!!

[ravenwolf]

Heb 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood,

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Thats right, and they were collecting them for the benifit
of Israel, hope thats spelled right, how many preachers today would admit they were a levite, even if they were?

[ravenwolf]

I’m not seeing where Christ (after his crucifixion), by word or example tells his followers to keep the Saturday Sabbath.

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I guess I would have to say that I most likely believe about like you do, but if the Christion leaders are saying that the sabaath day no longer applies then why at the same time do they say it has been changed to sunday?, and many of them do one or the other, and if you question them on it, they will then admit that every day is the lords day but will not and can not show you any passage that actually shows where it has been changed.

It is just like you said you can not have it both ways, if I can,t then they can,t either

You will not find any commandment to pay tithes. this is in an entirly different set of laws, I don,t know if it would be considerd an ordnance, maby so but there are dozens of passage,s about the sabaath even in the new testament.

you will find the ten commandments in exodus 20, verse 8 remember the sabaath and keep it holy, you will not find a commandment to pay tithes thithes there.

I believe that you may be considering the tithe law as one of the commandments, which it is not, It was a law given to the levites giving them the authority to collect tithes, a tax for the benefit of the state of isreal
I do not care about getting into the ordinances because they were abolished at Jesus,s death, but he did not abolish the ten commandents, he fulfilled them.

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Matthew 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least Commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. and there are dozens more.

James ch 2 verseWhat doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?

James 2:10 - For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all.
1 John

4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

St john 14 verse15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

What were his Commandments
St john gospel
1:1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.

1:2 The same was in the beginning with God.

1:3 All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.

Jesus also made the 10 commandments

If there were no commandments Or law could we be saved, I do not think so, ( I believe paul went into this fairly good but I do not have time right now to look it up )

Our admission of our sin is the first step to our salvation through faith and when we our throughly convicted of how terrible we really are ( speaking for my self ) then we ask for forgiveness and that’s when we are saved by his grace.

If not for the law, ( the cammandment ) we would not know that we had sinned, so we would not have any reason to ask for forgiveness so therefore would not be saved.

we have to keep Gods commandments in our hearts because we can not keep them bodily , if we say we can, we are calling God a liar because he says that everyone has sinned and come short of the glory of God.. And how can we keep Gods commandments in our hearts if we deny that they exist or say they have been changed

John ch 5 verse 2

By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love god, and keep his commandments.

If you believe in the Sunday sabaath, we do not have any disagreement, but I believe I can go with just resting on the sabaath, and then going to church on Saturday night or Sunday. ( ha, ha wishful thinking ) thanks a lot for the comment. and sorry this was so long.

[ravenwolf]

Histroy not law.
Levites collected tithes , for israel.

hebrews 7 verse 11
If therefore perfection were by the levitical priesthood,( for under it the people received the law )
What futher need was there that another priest should rise after the order of melchisedec,and not be called after the order of Aaron.

I think another scripture explains it better, but the old law did not work, so we are no longer living by the law but faith in Gods son Jesus Christ.

Tithing was not one of the ten commandments but a tax the levites collected from the people of Israel

[Seven_0]

I think another scripture explains it better, but the old law did not work, so we are no longer living by the law but faith in Gods son Jesus Christ.

I will submit that everything God does works perfectly. What do you think God intended the law to do?

Gal 3:24 Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.

Rom 5:20 Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

[ravenwolf]

Agreed. thanks

[ravenwolf]

I do not know if you are agreeing with me or not, but that is how I see it too, I do not have time to guote any scripture right now, but seems you know them pretty good.

but my only comment would be that the law from the ten commandments according to paul is neccesary for our salvation because if not for the law how would we know we have sinned which is a transgression of the law, everyone has sinned and come short of the glory of God. so speaking for myself, if I had not read that adultery, for instance, was against the law. I would not have asked for forgiveness
and would not be saved
, in fact I would not even know Christ. so I think the law is spiretual and should be kept in our hearts. I do not believe that we can live by the letter of the law and I do not believe that it was intented.

You answered my original guestion.
if there were no law to the christian,s about the sabaath then what need would there be to change it to sunday, as many of them claim. Ok, i get it, thanks

[nodumbblonde]

Some parts I agree with, other parts I don’t. lol

I agree, the ONLY purpose of the law was to show us we were sinners. God knew from the beginning none of us could ever keep it.

Once we see what is required for us to be righteous in God’s eyes, we only have a couple of choices: Recognize we can never do all that’s required and turn to Christ, or deceive ourselves into thinking we can (and are) doing what’s required.

I do disagree that we can even keep it in our hearts.

Jeremiah 17:9 - “The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?”

Mark 7:21-23 - “For from within, out of the heart of men, proceed evil thoughts, adulteries, fornications, murders, (22) Thefts, covetousness, wickedness, deceit, lasciviousness, an evil eye, blasphemy, pride, foolishness; (23) All these evil things come from within, and defile the man.”

Our hearts lie to us continually. “Ah, you’re not so bad!” “Well, you’re as good as THEY are, anyway!” “At least you’re not as bad as HE is!” “You’re a pretty good person!” “You’re TRYING and that’s what matters!” :\

:)