Posted on 05/20/2008 7:45:05 AM PDT by NYer
***You used a lot of verbiage just to say you have no idea what languages Peter understood. A simple “no” or “I don’t know” would do.***
Scripture doesn’t speak a lot towards the bathroom habits of the people then, but that doesn’t mean that they didn’t indulge themselves. Same as language. I don’t need explicit instruction as to the language of a poor fisherman in Galilee. By the same token, I would expect a poor fisherman in Zanzibar to speak Swahili, not Mandarin Chinese.
***This is a slap at who? Name names and give examples to prove you understand what the Reformed believe. Otherwise admit you just threw that out as filler.***
Me? Filler? Nonsense. The Reformed believe that only they have the understanding of the Word of God. Jean Cauvin is a good start. The WCF is another; just make sure that you wear thick rubber gloves, you keep it off the carpet (it stains) and that you wash with a good antiseptic soap.
***And BTW ignore the words of Jesus when they are not in keeping with your practice of emphasis on flesh.
John 6:63
It is the spirit that gives life, the flesh is of no avail; the words that I have spoken to you are spirit and life. ***
I’ll assume that you have a point here. We do as we are instructed.
But I’ve seen it insisted here that Jesus is the only Rock.
Why would you stand on Jesus? Aren’t you crushing Him?
Don’t you believe that Christ is strong enough to support, hold up, encourage, save, keep, hold onto all that come to Him? Whether you realize it or not, the implication of your statement diminishes the Son of the Living God...As if He needed a Church, or anything else! The Church is not Christ’s equal. No one, nothing is. His is the preeminence.
***If one considers a steaming bowl of false witness “great,” sure...it was great.***
Not so much a bowl as an open pit in in the ground. Their father of lies has led them well and blinded their eyes to the point where I’m surprised that their churches don’t fly the pentacle.
Oh wait. http://www.institutefordemocracy.org/warfare.html says that:
The mainstream Presbyterian Church (USA) is infested with demons, according to a small but increasingly potent network of activists operating within the 2.6 million-member denomination. This group sees itself as engaged in a campaign of “spiritual warfare” against the enemies of God. While the Presbyterian Church might seem an unlikely place to find enemies of God, these spiritual warriors believe that the entire official Women’s Ministries division has been captured by Satan and built into a “demonic stronghold” that is threatening to usurp the church.
Practitioners of spiritual warfare believe that Satan and his agents are blocking the spread of the Gospel, and utilize prayer to attack perceived demonic presences. This type of prayer targets specific groups, individuals, or policies of the church—and ultimately its internal political processes—to overcome the supposed demonic influences. Demonic influence is reflected, for example, in the church’s consideration of the ordination of gays and lesbians. Theological and political differences among members of a church are not unusual, of course. But where some see differences, others see demons.
While not exclusively a charismatic theology and practice, spiritual warfare has been most closely identified with the charismatic movement. The lead agency of the practice in the PC(USA) is the charismatic caucus called Presbyterian-Reformed Ministries International (PRMI), which is headquartered in Black Mountain, North Carolina.
For more than 30 years, the PC(USA) has been under attack from within by a conservative “renewal movement.” This movement comprises a broad cross section of entities that seek to advance conservative evangelical agendas and that are generally opposed to the progressive social justice tradition of the church. Although PRMI, and charismatics generally, are often considered part of a fringe movement, the group is playing a prominent role in the conservative renewal movement in the PC(USA). Similar renewal movements with charismatic elements are politically active in other mainline churches as well
The conservative drive for power in the PC(USA) has entered an advanced stage, as marked by the 1998 publication of the Declaration and Strategy Paper of the Presbyterian Coalition (the central political vehicle of the renewal movement). This manifesto couples a bold theological vision with a strategic five-year plan to gain comprehensive control of the church. PRMI’s role in the conservative renewal movement may provide an indication of what awaits the church should the rightists prevail.
Spiritual Espionage and Bold Commandos
The contemporary charismatic movement—dubbed the “third wave of the holy spirit” by evangelical theologian Peter Wagner—followed the Pentecostal movement of the early 20th century and the charismatic revival in the mainline churches in the late 1960s. PRMI executive director Zeb Bradford Long (Brad Long) is on the steering committee of the North American Renewal Service Committee (NARSC), the main coordinating body of third wave Pentecostal, Catholic, Protestant, and other charismatic currents.1 Wagner described Long’s recent book, Prayer That Shapes the Future, as “an awesome contribution ... toward lifting the prayer movement to a new level.”2
One of the main features of the third wave is a concept called “strategic level spiritual warfare,” which was developed by Peter Wagner and others. According to PRMI author Tom White, this notion of a “strategic level” has expanded in connection with the AD 2000 and Beyond movement, the most comprehensive evangelical mission effort ever mounted. The PC(USA) joined AD 2000 and Beyond in 1995, under the influence of conservative evangelicals in the denomination.3
One important feature of strategic spiritual warfare is the “mapping” of “territorial spirits.” Spiritual mapping—Brad Long calls it “spiritual espionage”4 —involves research into a prevailing alignment of demonic principalities and forces and the strategic identification of particular demonic influences thought to be inhibiting Christ’s victory. Individuals, practices, policies, and structures are sometimes identified as components of a wider “demonic stronghold” that Satan is using to advance his kingdom against that of Christ.
Strategically focused prayer is thought to damage these strongholds through a type of spiritual engagement that meets Satan on his own terrain. To do this, practitioners employ “various prayer methodologies designed to confront presumed principalities, weaken their influence over a particular area or nation, and clear the atmosphere for a more effective sprouting of the seeds of gospel truth.”5 Tactics range from what Tom White calls “old-style intercession, to bold commando-style confrontations with principalities.”6
PRMI has initiated a strategic level spiritual warfare campaign against denominational structures supporting the work of women, gays, and lesbians in the church. This campaign was precipitated by a controversy over the church’s Women of Faith awards in 1999, one recipient of which was the openly lesbian Presbyterian leader, Jane Spahr.
The above is part of a map of the “demonic stronghold” in the Presbyterian Church (USA) distributed by the Presbyterian Renewal Ministries International (PRMI). The arrow indicate influence in the structure of the church and the “Darker Shade Shows Sphere of Stronghold’s Influence.”
PRMI’s map of the demonic stronghold and influences in the PC(USA)—which has been distributed within the church—is revealing. According to the key to the map, part of which is shown here, the shading indicates the degree of demonic influence. The Women’s Ministries unit, as well as the Presbyterian Health, Education, and Welfare Association, a consortium of health-related service and social justice networks, are, according to the map, fully within the demonic sphere. Even the mainstream Presbyterian Women is partially held in Satan’s grip.
Four unofficial Presbyterian organizations, each within the mainstream of the church, have been grouped together on the PRMI map as components of the demonic stronghold. PRMI identifies these groups as embodiments of the ReImagining movement, a wide-ranging ecumenical network that has been engaged in feminist theological work since the early 1990s. Only one of these groups, however, is actually part of the ReImagining movement. ReImagining gained national attention in 1994 after being attacked in the pages of The Presbyterian Layman, the bimonthly newspaper of the rightist Presbyterian Lay Committee (PLC), and the leading publication of the right-wing renewal movement in the PC(USA).
The one ReImagining-related group on the PRMI map is Voices of Sophia, a network that studies feminine and feminist currents within the Bible and in Christian tradition. ReImagining and Voices of Sophia have been unfairly accused of attempting to replace the Bible with pagan traditions and of worshipping the Greek goddess Sophia. Although the organization bears the name of Sophia, in fact it embraces a wide ranging “wisdom tradition” in biblical understanding and scholarship. Sophia is the Greek word for wisdom, which is also personified as the goddess. Sophia as wisdom is specifically included in several books of the Bible, notably Proverbs. The wisdom tradition, of which Sophia is but one part, stands well within mainstream biblical scholarship and Christian tradition.7 The primary focus of ReImagining and of Voices of Sophia is to seek the ongoing relevance of biblical and Christian tradition to issues of women’s role in society. To facilitate this, the group cultivates continuing rather than static understandings of divine revelation. The other three groups PRMI corrals as ReImagining-linked components of the demonic stronghold have only tangential relationships to this movement: the gay and lesbian More Light Presbyterians; the Witherspoon Society, Presbyterianism’s historic social justice group; and the Covenant Network of Presbyterians, a moderate formation that advocates dialogue with the right while holding out for the eventual removal of the denomination’s current ban on gay ordination.
Demons, not Demonization
Charismatics engaged in spiritual warfare sometimes claim to have physical encounters with supernatural evil. When they say this, they are not merely equating things they consider to be sinful with demons, or “demonizing” their opponents. They believe that their opponents are literally possessed by or are agents of Satan. Such views can mask the shared humanity and accompanying mutual respect and legitimacy that is a prerequisite for fundamental democratic rights in both church and society, regardless of theological and political differences.
PRMI leader Brad Long reports that for the last nine years, PRMI has engaged in intensive spiritual warfare at PC(USA) General Assemblies, where “on several occasions high level demonic beings that are being invited into our church by the very ideologies embodied in the people given the ‘women of faith’ award have manifested in the room.” These demons were “cast out in the name of Jesus,” according to Long, who explains the political context in which spiritual warfare has been waged over the years—notably the 1996 effort to pass Amendment B, the church’s ban on gay ordination. “We are going to have to fight this battle year after year against erosion of Biblical faith,” Long concludes, “until these demonic strongholds of deception have been exposed and cast down.”8
PRMI reports that at the 1999 General Assembly it “engage[d] high level spirits of deception” from early on. PRMI also notes the “special significance” of the moment during the Assembly “when a group of ordained women were on their knees asking forgiveness for the apostasy represented by those who received the Women of Faith awards . . . As this took place we could sense that ground was being taken back that had been yielded to Satan.”9 This episode highlights both the role of “intercessory” prayer in strategic level spiritual warfare and PRMI’s focus on women as a source of evil.
PRMI has since called for further intercessory prayer “to overcome a demonic stronghold that has taken root in the Presbyterian Church (USA).” This demon-infested locus, it says, is responsible for introducing “paganism” and promoting “immoral lifestyles” in the church. PRMI declared “that we have been led by the Holy Spirit to spend the money and time to call all the intercessors of [PRMI] to also engage in this spiritual battle.”10
There is clearly a point at which intercessory prayer and spiritual warfare become explicitly political. PRMI is a member of the Presbyterian Renewal Network, an unincorporated association of renewal groups that has coordinated rightist initiatives at the General Assembly in close collaboration with a political strategy group called the Presbyterian Forum. The Forum’s executive director, Bob Davis, thanked PRMI for its 1999 work, particularly its letter to delegates protesting the Women of Faith awards. According to Davis, this letter “provided a welcome and terrible word of judgment—so forthright and honest that it lifted the smoke from the scene and brought clarity to those charged with the responsibility of voting. The results from the floor speak for themselves.” Indeed, “[we] could not do what we do without the foundation of prayer that you have provided,” he further notes.11
Logan’s Slogan
This chart, distributed by PRMI, accuses the Women’s Ministries of rejecting God and falsely worshipping the goddess Sophia.
Rev. James H. Logan Jr., a past president and board member of PRMI, railed against inclusivity in the church at the 1999 General Assembly. Logan punctuated his General Assembly sermon with the refrain “Don’t lower the bar!”—referring to a supposed lowering of church standards. Logan’s slogan became the conservative battle cry at the Assembly. Logan set a similar tone at the annual meeting of the right-wing Presbyterian Coalition in 1999. He preached on the need to rely on God in the midst of “enemy territory,” citing the biblical example of King David in his conflict with the Amalekites.
Logan is also slated to preach at PRMI’s upcoming Pentecost 2000 conference—which includes a spiritual warfare track and is co-sponsored by The Presbyterian Layman. Layman editor Parker Williamson is scheduled to join Alan Leach, PRMI director of prayer and mission outreach, in leading an “equipping track” on “Discerning the Times,” which will deal with the question “What is Satan doing in western culture?” In 1999, Williamson may have offered a preview of what he thinks Satan is up to and what needs to be done about it. In a speech from the floor at the Presbyterian Coalition’s annual meeting, he called for a “bloody battle” for control of the church.12
PRMI leader Brad Long, in turn, has spoken at events sponsored by the Presbyterian Lay Committee, including the dedication of the PLC’s new office in 1998, at which he praised the organization for embodying “the truth of Jesus Christ in the role of a prophet.”13 PRMI became concerned when Williamson was scheduled to deliver a speech at Carnegie Hall in New York City in 1999, because Williamson was “aware that he may well be walking into hostile territory.” Consequently, PRMI issued a “Prayer Alert” urging its members to “provide intercessory prayer covering by praying on site.”14
The Trials of 1999
Charismatics, some with a bent for spiritual warfare, are playing a prominent role in the conservative movement’s efforts to enforce the ban on gay ordination through the church judicial system. One of the four cases backed by the Presbyterian Coalition’s task force on church discipline in 1999 was brought by Rev. Samuel Schreiner, who has been active in PRMI.15 In another of the four cases, Rev. Stephen Noll, an Episcopal priest and advocate of spiritual warfare, testified as an expert witness. Noll was put on the stand by Julius B. Poppinga, counsel for the complainants in the case against the Presbytery of Hudson River, which has resolved to allow “holy unions,” same-sex partnership ceremonies, in its churches.
In his recent book, Angels of Light, Powers of Darkness, Noll declares that “hedging out the demons is a particular responsibility of the church in its mission strategy and its inner discipline.”16 He agrees with Peter Wagner’s belief in the necessity of spiritual warfare to eliminate “territorial spirits” in the mission field as well.17 Noll is especially interested in apocalyptic scenarios in which the “active role in holy war” is transferred from “the angels to the Christian believers.” He writes, “[Angels] convey our prayers and cheer us on, but it is our special calling to share in the bloody victory of the lamb.”18 For many years dean of academic affairs at the Trinity Episcopal School for Ministry, Noll was formerly associate pastor of the charismatic Truro Episcopal Church in Fairfax, Virginia, whose members have included such rightist luminaries as Oliver North and Clarence Thomas.
Another leading spiritual warrior operating in the field of Presbyterian international missions is Dr. Ralph Winter.19 Winter founded the evangelical U.S. Center for World Mission and for many years served as a member of the steering committee of the theocratic Coalition on Revival, a coordinating body of far-right Reformed, evangelical, and charismatic leaders. Winter is a pioneer in the “unreached peoples” mission movement, which employs sophisticated use of anthropological data and analysis to help weaken indigenous resistance to evangelical Christianity.
More recently, Winter has promoted “microscopic spiritual warfare” against disease: “[m]y thoughts are no more spectacular or provocative than the revolutionary idea that God wants us to represent to people the full spectrum of His love by involvement in the entire battlefront of His conquering Kingdom. This pits us against the stratagems of the prince of darkness on a wider front. It is more and more clear to me that He is expecting us to work along with Him in that wider front, at His side, fighting back against Satan in every area and every level of Satan’s destructive invasion of creation.”20 In 1999, Presbyterians for Renewal, the leading conservative renewal network in the PC(USA), honored Winter with its Bell-Mackay award for mission leadership.
Words of War
The very views that may seem idiosyncratic to outsiders can be powerful factors in the religious and political motivations of self-described spiritual warriors. Far from being marginal, PRMI is important enough that strategic operators such as Bob Davis and Parker Williamson not only welcome the group, but also closely collaborate with it. Meanwhile, the question of how words and actions are related in spiritual warfare looms large. Given the military metaphors that guide and define the practice, if prayer alone fails to eliminate the supposed demonic stronghold currently gripping the church, what actions will PRMI then believe are required?
The roots of Presbyterianism are well sown by satan; this is a logical outgrowth and development of their origins. I applaud the struggle to come to grips with the situation, but would encourage the people caught within the Presbyterian net to look beyond the ropes to the prospect of life with God, not the snares of the devil.
Of course I do.
Whether you realize it or not, the implication of your statement diminishes the Son of the Living God...
It does not. It merely expresses my distaste at the idea of one walking all over Christ (I hope at least that the shoes are removed and the feet are washed).
As if He needed a Church, or anything else!
He founded the Catholic Church. I pity the filthy sinner who tells Him He does not need one or cannot have one.
The Church is not Christ’s equal.
Of course it's not His equal. Catholicism does not teach otherwise.
The rattlesnake handlers may be the most faithful for it seems that they believe that if they live in Christ or if they die in Christ, it’s all the same.
***Let those that stand on sand claim to be the best. I stand on the ROCK!***
Dwayne Douglas Johnson? I don’t think that he’d like to be stood upon. But what surprises me is that you would be a WWE fan.
For a counterpoint the following article will discuss the same topic from another equally "objective" point of view. It is not as wordy as yours but then truth is easier to defend than misdirection and subterfuge.
“He founded the Catholic Church. I pity the filthy sinner who tells Him He does not need one or cannot have one.”
Filthy sinner? You are being redundant. Is there any other kind? Fortunately, such a one can come to the Bridegroom for cleansing:
Eph 5:25-27 “...even as Christ also loved the church, and gave Himself for it; That He might sanctify and cleanse it with the washing of water by the word, That He might present it to Himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.”
The Scriptures clearly teach us that we are all, ALL filthy sinners (just like you said) and need to come to CHRIST for the cleansing that makes us part of HIS church. Then, once we do, we are no longer filthy sinners (in HIS eyes) even though we may sin from time to time. Because it is He who saves us and not ourselves.
I believe this is what the poster was referring to when speaking of “standing” on the Rock (taking the phrase from the hymn “The Solid Rock” (”all other ground is sinking sand...”)
Do you believe any Ecumenical Council has ever erred?
(Note I added the word "Ecumenical" to reduce the possibility of a misunderstanding).
***OK, I read the entire article. (I’m probably among the very few who did so) ***
I’d agree with you.
***For a counterpoint the following article will discuss the same topic from another equally “objective” point of view. It is not as wordy as yours but then truth is easier to defend than misdirection and subterfuge.***
That’s why I’m so thankful that I am in the position that I am.
***Papal Forgeries***
I didn’t realize that you had hopped into bed with such as William Webster. Please tell me that you at least used a condom.
Mercy me, who knew?
</sarc>
Could you please provide link(s) to their Creeds in order to show some level of sincerity in your charge.
Catholicism=Satanism-Hate site
The major difference between the two of us is your apparent hate and my "chain pulling". You seem to believe what you are saying. I know mine is not balanced.
Loathing...comtempt...
***The major difference between the two of us is your apparent hate and my “chain pulling”. You seem to believe what you are saying. I know mine is not balanced.***
Hate? I don’t think so.
Reggie, you know where I’m coming from. My last posting was from a pro Presbyterian group addressing the problems with the PC USA church. I simply stepped back and spoke to the problems with the beginnings of the church.
I know that you have said that you have swum the Tiber in reverse; the best Catholics are those who have swum away and then swum back. Interested?
St. Paul writes “In him you were also circumcised with a circumcision not administered by hand, by stripping off the carnal body, with the circumcision of Christ.
Look ma, no hands...A circumcumcision done with no hands...
You were buried with him in baptism, in which you were also raised with him through faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead”
Look ma, no hands again...A baptism with out using anyone's hands... (c.f. Col 2: 11-12).
So after describing Baptism as replacing circumcision,
If it's a Spiritual circumcision, it HAS to be a Spiritual baptism...NO WATER...THAT'S WHY Jesus said, Act 1:5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.
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