Posted on 05/17/2008 4:15:27 PM PDT by NYer
Just a thought. If you were God, the Father, would you create a human mother who is susceptible to persuasion by Satan - and then beget the only Son of God in her womb?
It’s truly amazing that any believing Christian would conceive of such a thought. The Infant Jesus growing in the womb of a sinful mother? The infant Jesus assigned to a mother for upbringing who is filled with sinful thoughts? I know some feel this concept infers Mary did not need a Redeemer. Quite the contrary. Indeed she did need a Redeemer. But, because of her unique role in salvation history, God created her without sin, a new Eve. If God can create Adam and Eve without sin, why not a new Eve? Is not Jesus the new Adam? In order to have a new covenant, God started over and created first a new Eve, who would be the human vessel for the new Adam.
God’s mysteries are not easy to comprehend. I prefer to use my common sense. God would not have His Only Begotten Son become man in the womb of a woman who was a sinner.
God made her.
God made her perfect from the first moment of her conception.
God preserved her from sin by His grace.
God sent an angel to salute her.
God made her the mother of His Son.
God bestowed the Holy Spirit on Her.
God raised her, body and soul, to heavenly glory.
God permits her, with the other saints, to intercede for us with her Son.
There is no idolatry in this. Everything Mary has, is God's gift. Every licit praise paid to her, glorifies God and none other.
God made her perfect from the first moment of her conception.
God preserved her from sin by His grace.
God raised her, body and soul, to heavenly glory.
God permits her, with the other saints, to intercede for us with her Son.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
ALL of the above is from the vain imagination of men - NONE of it is in the Scriptures. Such constructs reveal idolatry - what other reason would there be to invent these types of things?
Surely the ‘mother of God’ is equal to God.
If you just called her Saint Mary and made her equal to the Apostles we could stand it. But when you deify her it makes our skin crawl. (Please spare me all your rigamarole about how you don’t deify her. It’s song and dance and no real Protestant buys ANY of it.)
While Jesus expalined that we must pray to God in private, meaning not like the pharisees for show purposes, we should pray together. "Wherever two or more are joined together in my name."
Eph. 1:22-23; 5:23-32; Col. 1:18,24 - this family is in Jesus Christ, the head of the body, which is the Church.
1 Cor. 12:12,27; Rom. 12:5; Col. 3:15; Eph. 4:4 - we are the members of the one body of Christ, supernaturally linked together by our partaking of the Eucharist.
Rom. 8:35-39 - therefore, death does not separate the family of God and the love of Christ. We are still united with each other, even beyond death.
Matt. 17:3; Mark 9:4; Luke 9:30 - Jesus converses with "deceased" Moses and Elijah. They are more alive than the saints on earth.
Matt. 22:32; Mark 12:27; Luke 20:38 - God is the God of the living not the dead. The living on earth and in heaven are one family.
Luke 15:7,10 – if the angels and saints experience joy in heaven over our repentance, then they are still connected to us and are aware of our behavior.
John 15:1-6 - Jesus is the vine and we are the branches. The good branches are not cut off at death. They are alive in heaven.
1 Cor. 4:9 – because we can become a spectacle not only to men, but to angels as well, this indicates that angels are aware of our earthly activity. Those in heaven are connected to those on earth.
1 Cor. 12:26 - when one member suffers, all suffer. When one is honored, all rejoice. We are in this together as one family.
1 Cor 13:12; 1 John 3:2 - now we see in a mirror dimly, but in heaven we see face to face. The saints are more alive than we are!
Heb. 12:1 - we are surrounded by a great glory cloud (shekinah) of witnesses, our family in heaven. We are not separated. The “cloud of witnesses” (nephos marturon) refers to a great amphitheatre with the arena for the runners (us on earth), and many tiers of seats occupied by the saints (in heaven) rising up like a cloud. The “martures” are not mere spectators (“theatai”), but testifiers (witnesses) who testify from their own experience to God’s promises and cheer us on in our race to heaven. They are no less than our family in heaven.
1 Peter 2:9; Rev. 20:6 - we are a royal family of priests by virtue of baptism. We as priests intercede on behalf of each other.
2 Peter 1:4 - since God is the eternal family and we are His children, we are partakers of His divine nature as a united family.
1 Cor. 1:2; Rom. 1:7 - we are called to be saints. Saints refer to both those on earth and in heaven who are in Christ. Proof:
Acts 9:13,32,41; 26:10; 1 Cor. 6:1-2; 14:33; 2 Cor. 1:1; 8:4; 9:1-2; 13:13; Rom. 8:27; 12:23; 15:25,26, 31; 16:2,15; Eph. 1:1,15,18; 3:8; 5:3; 6:18; Phil. 1:1; 4:22; Col 1:2,4,26; 1 Tm 5:10; Philemon 1:5,7; Heb. 6:10; 13:24; Jude 1:3; Rev. 11:18; 13:7; 14:12; 16:6; 17:6;18:20,24; Rev 19:8; 20:9 - in these verses, we see that Christians still living on earth are called "saints."
Matt. 27:52; Eph. 2:19; 3:18; Col. 1:12; 2 Thess. 1:10; Rev. 5:8; 8:3-4; 11:18; 13:10 - in these verses, we also see that "saints" also refer to those in heaven who united with us.
Dan. 4:13,23; 8:23 – we also see that the angels in heaven are also called “saints.” The same Hebrew word “qaddiysh” (holy one) is applied to both humans and angels in heaven. Hence, there are angel saints in heaven and human saints in heaven and on earth. Loving beings (whether angels or saints) are concerned for other beings, and prayer is the spiritual way of expressing that love.
Sometimes I feel that others act in a way that Jesus found deplorable and that is acting like the pharisees. They felt "holier than others" and in following what they thought was the letter of the law, they disregarded the spirit of the law which is Love. I choose not to judge them because, as a believer in Jesus, none of my brothers and sisters in Christ should "make my skin crawl". That would not be Christ like in my book.
Well I didn’t mean to imply that Catholics (and Orthodox) themselves make my skin crawl. The phrase or title ‘Mother of God’ makes my skin crawl. Literally. It’s pure paganism going all the way back to Tamuz.
I was with you until your interpretation of Daniel, although I saw nothing which countered the post to which you were responding, and nothing in your explanation of the verses to explain why we should pray TO someone other than God.
We should certainly pray WITH one another, and FOR one another. But I don’t see where we should pray TO one another.
I guess as a consequence, and as a result of believing that we are not instructed to SPEAK to the dead, that there is no point in sharing our prayer requests with dead people through a form of “prayer” to them.
As an aside, if the dead truly are praying for us still, they would just as likely know our needs as they would be able to hear us speaking to them. So there would be no need to share those needs.
This is of course true for God as well — he knows what we need before we ask. We pray to God not so that he knows what we want, but because we are commanded to do so in His Word.
But there is no command to pray to Mary.
I’m not saying I agree or disagree with your interpretation of all the scriptures you referenced — I did not read them all, only your statements, I’m just saying that I see nothing in your statements to suggest the Bible teaches prayer TO the dead, or to the living.
Jesus spoke to two prophets. Some have questioned whether they ever really died, but putting that aside, Jesus, being God, would certainly be capable of acts which we are not either capable of, or called to. Moses and Elijah were present on the Mountain — if I were convinced that Mary was standing before me, I would certainly speak to her, but I would not pray to her or bow to her.
As to Daniel, 4:13, 23 are Nebuchadnezzar’s dream and it’s interpretation, and in addition to the common translation using “messenger”, rather than focusing on the angelic nature, are hardly the place to develop a working theory of the sainthood of the angels. We have no evidence the King spoke with heavenly authority, so the words he used are his own, explaining in his earthly view what happened in a dream. And of course, Joseph’s interpretation was inspired but there is no reason to expect that the words he used to describe the messenger were meant to be an exposition of the nature of angels.
Daniel 8:23 is the middle of a pronouncement by the Angel Gabriel, so I’m not sure why you referenced that specific verse: “Daniel 8:23 “At the end of their rule, when their sin is at its height, a fierce king, a master of intrigue, will rise to power.”
I do agree that Jesus’ adminition to pray in secret needs to be interpreted in light of other verses which indicate we should pray for each other, and pray together. But my point is that Jesus told us to pray to the Father. I see no reason, if we are told to pary to the Father, we would ever want to pray to anybody else, as it is the Father who hears our prayers.
For Catholics Mary being special and being the Mother of God is biblical.Lk 1: 26-38 ...(The angel Gabriel said) "Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you ... The holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you. Therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God." ... Mary said, "Behold, I am the handmaid of the Lord. May it be done to me according to your word."
Luke also narrates Mary's visit to her cousin Elizabeth (pregnant with John the Baptist). It is Elizabeth who first calls Mary "the mother of God (Lord)".
There are many Catholics who feel the same way you do regarding Mary. Like with all things in Faith, it is sort of personal. For many years I prayed only to God and usually when it was convenient. When I became a mother I felt the Blessed Mother’s presence in my life and it brought and continues to bring me closer to Jesus. I love her, like I love my deceased grandmother. I talk to her and ask for guidance. I am gratefull to her for being such a good role model for us as mother’s. I hope to serve God they way she did. Her role is God’s new covenant with humanity was essential.
You argue that God needed a perfect vessel for his son, so Mary was born without sin (I presume original sin). Then you argue that Mary was not susceptible to the temptations of the Devil. Finally, you argue that Mary has no sinful thoughts or desires.
But, as Paul said, a person without sin has no need of a redeemer. The law was a way to God, for those who could follow it without deviation. If Mary was born sinless, lived sinless, and died sinless, she has no need of a Redeemer.
As to your logic of Jesus, being sinless, having to have been born to a sinless woman, that logic fails by application.
Simply put, you argue Mary was born Sinless, and lived a sinless life, just like Jesus. But you argue Jesus, being sinless, had to be born to a sinless woman.
Therefore, Mary must have been born to a sinless woman. And that sinless woman must have been born to a sinless woman — and so on throughout history.
But nobody argues that Mary’s mother was sinless. And the Bible does not argue that Mary was sinless. She was obedient.
Even Jesus could be tempted by the Devil. He overcame that Temptation. Your version of Mary claims she could not be tempted. But God made man in his image, and in that image, Adam and Eve were both capable of being tempted. So how can Mary be in his image, but without temptation?
If the argument is that she COULD be tempted, but that God knew she would not give into temptation, we are back to a Mary who could fulfill the law, but the Bible says nobody can fulfill the law.
Then there is the eminently practical question — why does Mary have to remain a Virgin? Even if you believed she was sinless, sex in marriage is not a sin. She WAS married to Joseph, and while he did not have sex with her while she was with child, there would be no sin in consumating their marriage.
Thank you for giving me an opportunity to discuss this with you.
I agree.
Mary was the mother of Jesus’s flesh. God is Spirit. Mary was not the mother of God. And even though The Messiah transmogrified His own flesh or so it seems to us .... THAT flesh was not of Mary any longer.
The salutation of the Angel Gabriel is different from the usual angelic greeting. To me it indicates that Mary was exceptionally "highly favored with grace" (Greek: charitoo, used twice in the New Testament, in Lk 1:28 for Mary - before Christ's redemption; and Eph 1:6 for Christ's grace to us - after Christ's redemption).
The Catholic faith has a long of history. For us Peter was our first pope.
The teachings of Mary's virginity were researched and written about in our early Christianity.
Great teachers of the Church from at least the fourth century spoke of Mary as having remained a virgin throughout her life:
Athanasius (Alexandria, 293 - 373)
Epiphanius (Palestine, 315? - 403)
Jerome (Stridon, present day Slovenia, 345? - 419)
Augustine (Numidia, now Algeria, 354 - 430)
Cyril (Alexandria, 376 - 444)
and others.
Her virginity, or lack of, isn't a deal breaker for me. I'd really rather not even visualize that(poor Joseph). But then again, they were really not of this world and God's ways are superior to ours.
We are called to follow those examples and be apostles of God. I do believe that there is a spritual battle taking place and our spirit doesn't die with the flesh. The battle continues. The Blessed Mother is certainly looking after her children and leading them to Jesus. She did that for me. For those that don't struggle on their spiritual journey. God Bless them. God had to send plenty of angels to help me, and I ask the Blessed Mary to do the same for my children. She is their Guardian Angel and a role model for all women. I guess it is a matter of faith.
Take a look at the messages in the numerous apparitions that have taken place. They are profound and prophetic. I can't read them without knowing they are sent from God.
Please take the time to read books regarding Fatima. The book called The Holy Apsotolate of Motherhood. It is amazing. http://www.apparitions.org/
I am glad to read this:
Jesus gives Authority to Peter. Mat 16:18 And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it. Mat 16:19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."
Jesus tells us that whoever hears the apostles thqat whoever hears them hears Him
Luk 10:16 Whoever listens to you listens to me. Whoever rejects you rejects me. And whoever rejects me rejects the one who sent me.
And finally:
Jesus tells us that the Church has Authority
1Ti 3:15 But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.
When I was a Fundamentalist I used to think the way you do.
I’ve read the Scriptures and NOWHERE in God’s Word does He tell us to do anything similar with Mary that the RCC promotes.I get that YOU can't see what Holy Writ clearly says Manny. That whole YOPIOS stuff. The early Church Fathers got it. The Eastern and Greek Orthodox, they get it. The ANglicans, they get it. The early prots, they did too. Luther and Calvin and them. Manfred, he doesn't get it. So be it. You alone will someday have to answer for your actions and beliefs. All alone. In front of Mary's Son. I will keep you in my prayers.
Well said!
Also well said, thank you!
I read the Scripture and understand what it says - I simply don’t read the RCC fairy tales anywhere. It takes a combination of a vivid imagination and a dead lack of comprehension to conclude certain RCC doctrines.
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