DR. PUSEY ON THE WORSHIP OF MARY IN THE CHURCH OF ROME

Sword and the Trowel ^ | 1866 | Charles Spurgeon

[Fichori]

I was just trying to be tactful.

[Quix]

Assumptions are hazardous on all sides.

[Huber]

Spurgeon was, of course, a Baptist. However Pusey was the consumate Anglican.

[Quix]

It would be more accurate to assert that one had seen no proofs etc. posted.

than to insist that I have never had any; or that I don’t have any in my realm currently; or that I don’t have any in my noggin currently;

Assumptions are hazardous on all sides.

[Quix]

LOL.

I gave up most of my tacts
for lent

or Christmas or Resurrection Sunday . . . or something.

And 7/11 was fresh out last time I checked.

---

Actually, tact does have it’s place . . .

And, I even trot some out even on such threads . . . occasionally.

Particularly to those showing restraint in their outlandish assertions!

[OpusatFR]

Sure. Sure.

LOL!

[BizarroNo1]

Quite disingenuous of you to fail to note that the term used to refer to the Blessed Mother, co-redemptrix, is Latin which when translated to English means the woman with the Redeemer. It in no way elevates the Blessed Mother to a "status" equivalent to that of Christ. Perhaps your anti-Catholic MO prevents you from learning Latin. Perhaps you have no desire to be honest. Perhaps you see nothing wrong with bearing false witness against the Catholic Church.

My, my, since you like Latin so much, how about I point out that you are quite skilled at argumentum ad hominem. Right off the bat, you attacked. It would soooooo easy to return the favor and say, "Perhaps you have no desire to be honest. Perhaps you see nothing wrong with bearing false witness against Christ's Church" back at you, wouldn't it? Here's a tip-if you don't think it's constructive when that kind of thing is done to you, don't do it to others, ok?

I have looked up what the RCC teaches about Mary being a co-redemptrix. This is what I got this a Catholic website: "Thus in her own suffering too, the Mother of the Redeemer participates in the redemptive mission of Jesus Christ." I have to ask you, did Jesus need Mary, or anyone else, to redeem the world alongside Himself? Wasn't he the ultimate sacrifice all by Himself? So then, what purpose of God's could Mary possibly have been serving by being considered a co-redeemer, if Jesus' participation alone was all that was necessary for Redemption? It seems she is serving no purpose of God's as she is labeled co-redemptrix, rather she is serving someone else's. The Catholic position is that Jesus did all the Redemption work, but Mary still deserves some credit because she suffered as a mother during His death (isn't that some line a liberal would come up with?)

An analogy to the what the RCC position would be if it didn't let its worship of Mary interfere with logic: A woman gives me a banana, which I eat. She watches me eat it all by myself as she thinks about how tasty it must be. Another woman comes into the room afterwards and sees the banana peel. She asks, "Who ate the banana?" I tell her I did, at which point the banana-giver says, "I am the one who gave him the banana, and I enjoyed watching him eat it." The second woman says, "That's not what I asked. I asked who ate the banana, and you ate none of it. You don't actually consider yourself to be a participant in his eating of the banana, which would make you a co-eater, just because your mouth watered as you watched him eat it, do you?" To which the banana-giver replies, "No, I cannot fairly say that I co-ate the banana with him, even though I am the one who gave it to him and imagined how it must have tasted as he ate it."

[BizarroNo1]

Don't let it bother you, because we're all Christians here. You can tell by our fruits.

How can we all be Christians here when according to the RCC, people who reject its 'authority' cannot be real Christians? Catholics don't believe the RCC is wrong in any way, do they? Follow the logic from there...

[OLD REGGIE]

Time and again the distinctions between latria (worship) and dulia (veneration) have been explained to you.

Did you forget Hyperdulia?

[Running On Empty]

I noticed that. It seems as though any request to
“prove” is just a fulcrum for dispute and the triumph of one’s own opinion.

And this happens again and again and again and.........

I am glad to see you earnestly contend for the Faith and holding onto it.

Yes, the Mass is the pinnacle of our Faith. It’s obvious that there are those who will never accept that. That doesn’t change our faith in any way. In fact, it helps us to honor it all the more.

Pax Christi

ROE

[Iscool]

This is actually, demonstratively false, even if one agrees that "Catholics worship Mary". Even if one finds a relatively obscure (Catholic) source that directly states (or exhorts) Catholics worship Mary, this still doesn't necessarily violate Scripture. Why? Because the very usage of the word "worship" (proskyneō) in Scripture itself does not always mean the honor and respect shown to God. (cf. Matt 2:2, 8, 11 In these verses we see the Magi desiring "to worship" the King of the Jews; it's highly unlikely they thought the King of the Jews was God. Similarly for King Herod, who, in verse 8, desired to "worship him too". Thus, simply bowing down to a man, in Scripture itself does not always necessarily mean worshipping that man like one would worship God.)

I don't see where you're being very demonstrative...There are different kinds of worship...One is the one you are speaking of...Another is the aspect of serving God...

The one you are referring to is the same as in Joh 4:23 But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshipers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him.

The people that worshipped the baby Jesus worshipped Him the same as others worshipped God...

And exactly the same 'god' worship as the people in Act 7:43 Yea, ye took up the tabernacle of Moloch, and the star of your god Remphan, figures which ye made to worship them: and I will carry you away beyond Babylon

All the same word...All the same worship...

It's not different words used, or different uses of the word worship...It's the same word with the same usage with different gods, in some cases...

[Running On Empty]

It is not Truth to say that “according to the RCC, people who reject its authority cannot be real Christians”.

If something is said about Catholicism, what is said should be true and not false.

[Iscool]

Oh ho! You do realize what you just confirmed is TRADITION.

Hardly...

Jesus told the Apostles that He and the Father are ONE...Jesus told the Apostles that He had to leave but the third part of the Trinity would come and take His place...

And they received the Holy Spirit...

The Apostle Paul spent 3 years with the Resurrected Jesus...And of course was filled with the Holy Spirit as well...

That's not tradition, that's Scripture...They not only knew of the Trinity, they wrote about it, often...

Where did your church fathers get the knowledge??? Apparently not from Scripture...Lucky guess???

[tiki]

Glory to God in the highest,
and peace to his people on earth.
Lord God, heavenly King, almighty God and Father,
we worship you, we give you thanks, we praise you for your glory.
Lord Jesus Christ, only Son of the Father,
Lord God, Lamb of God,
you take away the sin of the world: have mercy on us;
you are seated at the right hand of the Father: receive our prayer.
For you alone are the Holy One, you alone are the Lord,
You alone are the Most High, Jesus Christ,
with the Holy Spirit, in the glory of God the Father. Amen.

NICENE CREED:
We believe in one God, the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, Light from Light, true God from true God,
begotten, not made, one in Being with the Father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation he came down from heaven:
[bow during the next two lines:]
by the power of the Holy Spirit
he was born of the Virgin Mary, and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate;
he suffered, died, and was buried.
On the third day he rose again in fulfillment of the Scriptures;
he ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead,
and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life,
who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son he is worshipped and glorified.
He has spoken through the Prophets.
We believe in one holy catholic and apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead,
and the life of the world to come. Amen.

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this bread to offer, which earth has given and human hands have made. It will become for us the bread of life.
All: Blessed be God for ever.

Priest: Blessed are you, Lord, God of all creation. Through your goodness we have this wine to offer, fruit of the vine and work of human hands. It will become our spiritual drink.
All: Blessed be God for ever.

Holy, Holy (Sanctus):
All: Holy, holy, holy Lord, God of power and might,
Heaven and earth are full of your glory.
Hosanna in the highest.
Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.
Hosanna in the highest.

Memorial Acclamation:
Priest: Let us proclaim the mystery of faith:
All: A - Christ has died, Christ is risen, Christ will come again.
or B - Dying you destroyed our death, rising you restored our life. Lord Jesus, come in glory.
or C - When we eat this bread and drink this cup, we proclaim your death, Lord Jesus, until you come in glory.
or D - Lord, by your cross and resurrection, you have set us free. You are the Savior of the World.

All: Our Father, who art in heaven, hallowed be thy name;
thy kingdom come; thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven.
Give us this day our daily bread;
and forgive us our trespasses as we forgive those who trespass against us;
and lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil.

Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: have mercy on us.
Lamb of God, you take away the sins of the world: grant us peace.

Move along folks there is no worship of Jesus in the Mass. >S<

[OpusatFR]

“That’s not tradition, that’s Scripture...They not only knew of the Trinity, they wrote about it, often...

Where did your church fathers get the knowledge??? Apparently not from Scripture...Lucky guess???”

What is your stand on the hypostatic union? Is that a tenet of your faith? Where do you stand on Arianism?

The Church fathers were the ones who gave you what you believe if you are a Trinitarian. No one else. They used Scripture and the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

[Quix]

goodness . . . what am I forgetting . . .

is it Super-ego in the service of the Id

or the Id in the service of the Super-ego . . . or

is it . . .

Super-dogmatica in the service of the Statue-pontifica in the service of the Magicsterical power mongers in the service of . . .

[OLD REGGIE]

Protestant Puritan British killed millions of Irish Catholics under Oliver Cromwell.

Wow! I have read estimates that the entire population of Ireland was as high as 1,800,000 at the time of Oliver Cromwell.

He killed th entire population of Ireland and a few hundred thousand "others" for good measure?

Let's make some small effort to be factual with our "history".

[OpusatFR]

BTW, the whole theology of the Catholic Church is Pauline.

Guess?

Answer: St. Paul

[tiki]

did Jesus need Mary, or anyone else, to redeem the world alongside Himself?

Does God NEED you? Evidently you are part of His plan because you exist. So the real question would be, did God use Mary as a part of His plan?

[Running On Empty]

Thanks, tiki