DR. PUSEY ON THE WORSHIP OF MARY IN THE CHURCH OF ROME

Sword and the Trowel ^ | 1866 | Charles Spurgeon

[Uri’el-2012]

Welcome to FR

shalom b'SHEM Yah'shua

[netmilsmom]

>>”Never before,” observes John Higham, “had a single society gathered up so many hatreds.” <<

Wow!

[Religion Moderator]

Let’s not go down that road for the same reason we do not discuss Jack Chick materials or the false Jesuit Oath - even academically. IOW, discussions of hate mongering materials can stir up indignation or open wounds.

[informavoracious]

Thanks, I’ve been on FR awhile, lurkwise and postwise, just not so much on the Religion Forum. Perhaps I will leave that to the experts. Every man his own pope. Peace be with you.

[DannyTN]

I agree with you that using the term "Co-redeemer" is going to far, because it has a connotation of equality.

While Mary is not our redeemer, she can be said to have a role in our redemption, since Mary gave birth to our redeemer. But it was Jesus who redeemed us. Mary's role while a tremedous honor is small.

So it really boils down to what are Catholics thinking when they use that term. But I agree it's a dangerous term. Even if they use it now with the proper perspective of Mary's role, the use of it is likely to lead others to assume a greater role for Mary than is warranted.

I'll try to check out that thread later. I have heard that there are areas in the third world where Mary is actually worshipped. But I've never been clear on how widespread it is, or if it's just a hit piece.

I would expect that an occasional Catholic would get confused given the Catholic traditions, just like the occasional Baptist, will think going to church or being baptised will save them, regardless of how many times the opposite is preached from the pulpit.

[DungeonMaster]

Thanks for the post, this is going to be good and I haven’t even started reading it yet. 1866 even!

[Religion Moderator]

All right then, stick with the history of the KKK but do not quote any of the KKK materials or websites that link to their materials.

"Open" threads are contentious, but I draw the line on "hate mongering." Examples of banned sources include KKK, Aryan Nations, National Identity, Jack Chick, Jesus-is-Lord.com, Vdare, the false Jesus Oath and any website that links to such sources.

[Running On Empty]

“Perhaps I will leave that to the experts”.

Perhaps that’s the problem! :-)

Sometimes Joe Everyman can have a more clear view and version of things.

Never should we under-estimate Joe Everyman.

Pax Christi, informavoracious

[netmilsmom]

>>As far as opening wounds, while I can take it, what would you consider the purpose of this whole thread to be? <<

That is an extremely good question.

[Religion Moderator]

To pick at a scab, a scab must have been formed.

[xzins]

Starting on 24 August 1572 (the feast of Bartholomew the Apostle) with the murder of Coligny, the massacres spread throughout Paris, and later to other cities and the countryside, lasting for several months. The exact number of fatalities is not known, but it is estimated that anywhere from ten thousand to possibly one-hundred thousand Huguenots died in the violence throughout France. Though by no means unique, "it was the worst of the century's religious massacres." [1] The massacres marked a turning-point in the French Wars of Religion. The Huguenot political movement was crippled by the loss of many of its prominent aristocratic leaders, and those who remained were increasingly radicalized.

The above from Wikipedia.

Interestingly, one of the many Huegenot families that immigrated to America in search of religious freedom were the Reviere's.

An ancestor, Paul Revere, was instrumental during the American Revolution. God works in mysterious ways his wonders to perform.

French Huegenots were hugely responsible for our 1st and 2nd Amendments to the Constitution. Free religion and self defense.

[Wonder Warthog]

"I just don't believe that past saints are omnipresent or omniscient.

And neither does the Church teach that they are.

"Thus they can't hear you pray to them. And even if they happened to be present, they don't know your thoughts if you pray silently."

We don't know (and can't know) what abilities the saints have in Heaven. But there is plenty of evidence (and I mean really hard scientific evidence) for saintly intercession. You need to read up on what is required by the Church for the recognition of a saint as a Saint. From this evidence one has to draw the conclusion that the Saints can and do hear our prayers---verbal OR silent.

"Thus, given my belief about the afterlife, it would require God's intervention and passing the prayer on, for the past saint to even know that you prayed to them.

Which precisely what the Catholic church teaches. This doesn't mean that he has to intervene with each communication, though---just grant the "natural saintly ability" to do so.

[netmilsmom]

>>To pick at a scab, a scab must have been formed.<<

I’m sorry, seriously. What does that mean?

[ChurtleDawg]

I looked it up on the net and found estimates ranging from 10,000 to 100,000. I am no expert, and considering it was wikipedia, it could have been altered to make Catholics look worse.

Need I remind people that Protestant Christianity has more than it’s share of innocent blood on it’s hands. For example-—Zwingli had Anabaptists drowned in the rivers and Calvin ordered Michael Servetus burned at the stake by an agonizing slow fire.

Protestant Puritan British killed millions of Irish Catholics under Oliver Cromwell.

Who knows how many innocents have been slaughtered at the hands of the head of the Anglican Church, the Monarch of England?

[Religion Moderator]

The original claim was that the purpose of this thread was to open wounds. That, by the way, would be reading the mind of the poster which is "making it personal."

Nevertheless, if the issue were considered settled - a scab formed on an open wound like the outlawing of racism in the U.S. settled the racism debate - then advocating it again would be "picking at the scab." But in this case, the issue remains "open" which is to say, no scab has formed, the issue (whether Mary is being worshipped) has not been settled.

[ChurtleDawg]

What about the genocide of Irish Catholics under the Puritan Protestant Oliver Cromwell in 1649-1651? More than 1/4 of Ireland’s population either died or was forced to be refugees.

Here is an example of the British Protestant attitude:

The English Parliament passed an Ordinance of No Quarter against Irish Catholics in 1642, sanctioning the killing of captured rebels.

Or what about the Puritan witch hunts in Massachusetts in 1692? Those weren’t Catholics murdering innocent people on the claims of some girls pretending to be possessed.