Hey, Who Are You Calling a Cult?

Belief.net ^ | Orson Scott Card

[dangus]

“Mixed marriages” is what non-Mormons call marriages between religions.

[the808bass]

Yeah, one can find all sorts of stuff on the Internet. Again, the Ford Chevy thing.

This is a disingenuous analogy, which you only posit when it's your religion under scrutiny. When you are posting that Mormonism has a more correct view of theology, are you simply the Chevy dealer talking bad about Ford? Or do you really have the truth?

If you think you really have the truth, then it's not just the Ford dealer vs. the Chevy dealer, it's truth vs. false.

[markomalley]

The term “cult” has been colored so that its popular meaning has no resemblance to the original.

Mind you, I have my own opinion about the validity of Mormonism...but I am not here to throw stones.

[Leisler]

Add closed(secret)/non public ceremonies.

[Enosh]

"I for one have had enough."

[Leisler]

Some other Joe Smith quotes from his last minutes.

“Pass me the bottle.”
“My guns loaded, is yours?”
“You stay here and hold’m off. I've just received a vision to slip out this here window and light out for the territories. Good luck boys!”

[Revelation 911]

Is it only articles critical of Mormonism, or that investigate the theology of the LDS that are moved to the News forum?

[Revelation 911]

Ten warning signs of a potentially unsafe group/leader.
Absolute authoritarianism without meaningful accountability.

No tolerance for questions or critical inquiry.

No meaningful financial disclosure regarding budget, expenses such as an independently audited financial statement.

Unreasonable fear about the outside world, such as impending catastrophe, evil conspiracies and persecutions.

There is no legitimate reason to leave, former followers are always wrong in leaving, negative or even evil.

Former members often relate the same stories of abuse and reflect a similar pattern of grievances.

There are records, books, news articles, or television programs that document the abuses of the group/leader.

Followers feel they can never be “good enough”.

The group/leader is always right.

The group/leader is the exclusive means of knowing “truth” or receiving validation, no other process of discovery is really acceptable or credible.

[mad_as_he$$]

Other than the obvious conclusion the guy does a good job of laying the field out. Thanks for posting!

[AppyPappy]

I was reading a book on polygamy and found an Orson Card family had migrated to Canada after the Mormon church banned polygamy. I was wondering if he was related.

[AppyPappy]

“Father, Son and Holy Ghost make 3. “

The Three are one. Jesus said “If you have seen me, you have seen the Father”

[mad_as_he$$]

Hot button inflammatory word. Just like throwing the word liberal at someone here on FR it is twisted to be a condemnation. Too bad it really does get in the way of a meaningful discussion. one of the reasons I decided sometime ago to stay out of the Mormon discussion on FR. This is the exception because of the quality of the article posted. Not sure how you folks have stayed so reasonably calm during this.

[Campion]

True, some may dislike this doctrine, but it is ancient, Biblical, and true.

Theosis is indeed ancient, Biblical, and true.

But theosis is not the belief that the God of Israel started out as a man like us.

Theosis is also not the belief that we can become what he now is.

If you believe either of those two propositions, then you're promoting something other than the authentic doctrine of theosis.

Theosis is the belief that the redeemed and glorified souls of Christians, by grace (not mere human effort), merge with the one God, partaking of his nature and being perfectly united with him. We do not become "gods" except perhaps in a loose, figurative sense, because Scripture is very clear that there is only one God. (cf Isaiah 43 and 44). In fact, a strong argument can be made from logic that there can be only one God, and that he is not and never was a created being.

Most Christians don't even know their own Church Fathers believed this stuff prior to the Nicean councils of the 4th century.

Since you're making blanket statements about what "most Christians" don't know, I'll respond by saying that most Mormons don't even know that (a) what they believe is not theosis but a mid-19th Century American Gnostic heresy; and (b) Catholics and Orthodox absolutely still believe in theosis the way the Fathers taught it.

There is one body and one Spirit, just as you were called in one hope of your calling; one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all. --Ephesians 1:4-6

[AppyPappy]

Isn’t Larry King married to a Mormon?

[DungeonMaster]

Wow. A Mormon asks himself the question "Is Mormonism a Cult?" and then answers "No."

BWHAHAHAHA

And for the record, yes they are.

[Flo Nightengale]

Card purposely picks and chooses the quotes from the ECF which he believes make his case for the “progression to godhood” doctrines of the LDS. But the church fathers never taught such heresy. They taught that there is but one true eternal God, from whom we receive communicable attributes only, like love, immortality, and holiness to those whom he provides redemption. But God is NEVER referred to as an exalted man in any of their writings. God NEVER imparts to man his unique characteristics of eternity, omniscience, omnipresence, or omnipotence to the resurrected believer.

[commonguymd]

Really now.

[dangus]

More fascinating to me: Pat Buchanan’s sister, Bay Buchanan, who has been head of the presidential campaigns of both him and Tom Tancredo, is a Mormon.

[sevenbak]

Well said. An corrupt tree cannot bring forth good fruit, neither can a good tree bring forth evil fruit.

Voice of reason, thanks.

[sevenbak]

Let's see, it was protestants who were seeking to destroy the saints in their day. Men are men after all.

Conceit this is, but hardly "Mormon." (Indeed, the Book of Mormon condemns in the strongest terms those who adopt such an attitude: Alma 31:16-19, Alma 31:27-35).

Gordon B. Hinckley

Warned President Gordon B. Hinckley:

There is no room for arrogance in our lives. There is no room for conceit in our lives. There is no room for egotism in our lives. We must be humble before the Lord. He has so declared, and if we will do it, He will hear our prayers and answer them with a blessing upon our heads.^[1]

Of the specific conceit which the critics claim they are taught, President Hinckley said:

Be respectful of the opinions and feelings of other people. Recognize their virtues; don't look for their faults. Look for their strengths and their virtues, and you will find strength and virtues that will be helpful in your own life.^[2]

It's hard to see how looking for "strengths and...virtues" in non-members to help an LDS member's own life constitutes ignoring or deprecating all non-believers.

President Hinckley further said:

There is no need in any land for conflict between diverse groups of any kind. Let there be taught in the homes of people that we are all children of God, our Eternal Father, and that as surely as there is fatherhood, there can and must be brotherhood.^[3]

He denounced bad feelings and behavior toward non-Mormons:

Why do any of us have to be so mean and unkind to others? Why can't all of us reach out in friendship to everyone about us? Why is there so much bitterness and animosity? It is not a part of the gospel of Jesus Christ. We all stumble occasionally. We all make mistakes. I paraphrase the words of Jesus in the Lord's Prayer: "And forgive us our trespasses, as we forgive those who trespass against us."

∗       ∗       ∗

There is no end to the good we can do, to the influence we can have with others. Let us not dwell on the critical or the negative. Let us pray for strength; let us pray for capacity and desire to assist others. Let us radiate the light of the gospel at all times and all places, that the Spirit of the Redeemer may radiate from us.^[4]

Members and non-members have the same status before God. This does not support the idea that members are somehow to "hold themselves aloof."

M. Russell Ballard

I encourage you to build personal, meaningful relationships with your nonmember friends and acquaintances...If they are not interested in the gospel, we should show unconditional love through acts of service and kindness, and never imply that we see an acquaintance only as a potential convert...We must not reserve our kindness and affection only for our fellow members. We must be sensitive and not oblivious to the feelings of those whose views may differ from ours. Considering the early history of the Church in these latter days, unkindness or indifference toward others should be abhorrent to members of the Church. I bear my testimony that "God is no respecter of persons"; we should follow his example in all of our associations with our fellowmen.^[5]

David B. Haight

Besides loving God, we are commanded to do what to many is a more difficult commandment—to love all, even enemies, and to go beyond the barriers of race or class or family relationships. It is easier, of course, to be kind to those who are kind to us— the usual standard of friendly reciprocity.

Then are we not commanded to cultivate genuine fellowship and even a kinship with every human being on earth? Whom would you bar from your circle? We might deny ourselves a nearness to our Savior because of our prejudices of neighborhood or possessions or race—attitudes that Christ would surely condemn. Love has no boundary, no limitation of good will.^[6]

Jeffrey R. Holland

Brothers and sisters, I testify that no one of us is less treasured or cherished of God than another. I testify that He loves each of us—insecurities, anxieties, self-image, and all. He doesn't measure our talents or our looks; He doesn't measure our professions or our possessions. He cheers on every runner, calling out that the race is against sin, not against each other. I know that if we will be faithful, there is a perfectly tailored robe of righteousness ready and waiting for everyone...^[7]

Neal A. Maxwell

Love is the only answer, as Thomas Merton points out, to the searching question asked by Gandhi when he said: "How can he who thinks he possesses absolute truth be fraternal?"^[8]

Russell M. Nelson

Learn to listen, and listen to learn from neighbors. Repeatedly the Lord has said, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour." (Lev. 19:18; Matt. 19:19.) Opportunities to listen to those of diverse religious or political persuasion can promote tolerance and learning. And a good listener will listen to a person's sentiments as well...The wise listen to learn from neighbours.^[9]

Brigham H. Roberts

While the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints is established for the instruction of men; and it is one of God's instrumentalities for making known the truth yet he is not limited to that institution for such purposes, neither in time nor place. God raises up wise men and prophets here and there among all the children of men, of their own tongue and nationality, speaking to them through means that they can comprehend. ... All the great teachers are servants of God; among all nations and in all ages. They are inspired men, appointed to instruct God's children according to the conditions in the midst of which he finds them.^[10]

Conclusion

The attitude attributed by the critics to the Church is an abhorrent one. Members of the Church, of course, do not always live up to these high standards. But, there can be no doubt as to what the standards are: