Hey, Who Are You Calling a Cult?

Belief.net ^ | Orson Scott Card

[sevenbak]

Agreed.

[the808bass]

It's the ol Ford dealership printing talking points about Chevys thing.

If that's all it is, then I think I'll stick with my Ford.

[TheDon]

Mormonism is polytheistic (many gods) and as such has much more in common with other polytheistic religions, than Judaism or Christianity.

Christianity is monotheistic? That's a laugh. Father, Son and Holy Ghost make 3. That's tritheistic. I know, I've heard the post-biblical, neoplatonic trinitarian nonsense. It just doesn't wash.

[sevenbak]

Unless one really wants a Chevy. Those darn Ford salesmen keep bad mouthing the Chevys. What’s a car shopper to do?

[TheDon]

In recent years, a number of scholarly papers have discussed Martin Luther's belief in theosis, the concept that humans are destined to become gods through Christ.28 Lutheran Bishop Michael McDaniel, in a paper read at a dialogue with eastern Orthodox clergy, wrote that "Luther can write that 'the one who has faith is a completely divine man, a son of God, the inheritor of the universe. He is the victor over the world, sin, death, and the devil'; and, in a clear and unqualified affirmation of theosis: 'Faith makes a man God.'"29

Franz Posset quotes Luther that "'to be born of God is to acquire the nature of God;' 'God's grace makes man deiform and deifies him;' '/Christ/ becomes totally man and we become totally deified;' 'The person who is in the Father becomes deified. We are made 'gods.'" He concludes: "Deification was for Luther the synonym for justification and sanctification."30

[garylmoore]

If Mormonism were a cult, I would know it, and I would not be in it.

Personally I think that you need to get saved!

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

*** Joseph Smith passed the money test with flying colors:***

[sevenbak]

Well said. To be a ‘joint heir with Christ” is to obtain all that the Father hath. Luther understood this. So did Isaiah. By learning line upon line, precept on precept, here a little, there a little. Till we all come to the knowledge of God, and are perfect, even as He is, as Matthew states.

[P-Marlowe]

He wrote to me in all innocence, a reader from a Catholic country where Mormon missionaries had only recently begun to gather congregations of believers. "I asked my priest," he said, "and he told me that Mormons are a cult."

Well what have Mormon Apostles called Catholics?

In explaining a passage from the Book of Mormon, late LDS Apostle Bruce McConkie wrote,

It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this “church which is most abominable above all other churches” in vision. He “saw the devil that he was the foundation of it” and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization. (1 Ne. 13:1-10)He saw that this most abominable of all churches was founded after the day of Christ and his apostles; that it took away from the gospel of the lamb many covenants and many plain and precious parts; that it perverted the right ways of the Lord; that it deleted many teachings from the Bible; that this church was the “mother of harlots;”… (1 Ne. 13:24-42)

Nephi beheld further that this church was the “mother of abominations,” and “the whore of all the earth”… (Mormon Doctrine, 1958 edition, page 130)

Later in the same book Apostle McConkie expanded on the doctrine a bit:

…speaking of harlots in the figurative sense, [Nephi] designated the Catholic Church as “the mother of harlots” (1 Nephi 13:34; 14:15-17), a title which means that the protestant churches, the harlot daughters which broke off from the great and abominable church, would themselves be apostate churches.” (ibid., page 315)

Now which is more offensive?

A Catholic priest calling the Mormon church a "cult",

or a MORMON APOSTLE calling the Catholic Church "The great and abominable church... most abominable of all churches... mother of harlots...mother of abominations..., and the whore of all the earth"?

[buck jarret]

The Mormon pseudo-history of the Americas is not quite at the level of the beliefs of Scientologists, for instance, but it is not far off so far as I am concerned.

But what makes LDS less of less dignified and more “cult” is that it doesn’t have antiquity or history; it is ridiculous 19th century historical fiction.

[Ruy Dias de Bivar]

***Joseph Smith passed the money test with flying colors:***

[sevenbak]

The evangelical definition of saved? According to that theology, I already am, even as a Mormon. I believe in Jesus Christ as the Savior of mankind, and the only way to the Father, through his grace and shedding of his blood. I accept him as my Savior, without reservation or pause. He is my redeemer, my King, my God.

But it’s not the evangelicals that I define myself with either.

[sevenbak]

And McConkie was chastened by the Leadership of the church, and was made to remove such assumptions from his book, Mormon Doctrine. It's certainly want’ Mormon doctrine, was it?

But you knew this beforehand.

[dangus]

>> Ask any Mormon what a “part member family” is. <<

Just going from what I find on the internet, I’d guess it’s when one spouse converts and the other doesn’t. Now, why do Mormons have to do create a special term for “mixed marriages” unless they have peculiar doctrines or practices regarding them?

[sevenbak]

Hmm, like any other bank issued currency of the time?

I suppose.

[sevenbak]

Yeah, one can find all sorts of stuff on the Internet. Again, the Ford Chevy thing.

I've never heard “mixed” marriages in this context. That sounds like some racial thing, nothing to do with religion.

[Revereee]

Mormon folks that I've met are good folk. They aren't "Christian" though.

There are essential Christian doctrines that conflict with what the Mormons preach.

There is one God; we don't grow to become God. And Joe Smith? Let's not get ludicrous.

[P-Marlowe]

And McConkie was chastened by the Leadership of the church, and was made to remove such assumptions from his book, Mormon Doctrine. It's certainly want’ Mormon doctrine, was it?

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the "whore of Babylon" whom the Lord denounces... as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. And any person who shall be so wicked as to receive a holy ordinance of the gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent of the unholy and impious act. If any penitent believer desires to obtain forgiveness of sins through baptism, let him beware of having any thing to do with the churches of apostate Christendom, lest he perish in the awful plagues and judgments, denounced against them. The only persons among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people who have authority from Jesus Christ to administer any gospel ordinance are those called and authorized among the Latter-day Saints. Before the restoration of the church of Christ to the earth in the year 1830, there have been no people on the earth for many generations possessing authority from God to minister gospelordinances. We again repeat. Beware of the hypocritical false teachers and imposters of Babylon! - Apostle Orson Pratt The Seer, Vol.2, No.4, p.255

"The present Christian world exists and continues by division. The MYSTERY of Babylon the great, is mother of harlots and abominations of the earth, and it needs no prophetic vision, to unravel such mysteries. The old church is the mother, and the protestants are the lewd daughters. Alas! alas! what doctrine, what principle, or what scheme, in all, what prayers, what devotion, or what faith, `since the fathers have fallen asleep,' has opened the heavens; has brought men into the presence of God; and to the spirits of just men made perfect, and to an innumerable company of angels? The answer is, not any: `There is none in all christendom that doeth good; no, not one.' - Apostle John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.811

"Babylon, literally understood, is the gay world; spiritual wickedness, the golden city, and the glory of the world, The priests of Egypt, who received a portion gratis from Pharaoh; the priests of Baal, and the Pharisees, and Sadducees, with their "long robes," among the Jews, are equally included in their mother's family, with the Roman Catholics, Protestants, and all that have not had the keys of the kingdom and power thereof, according to the ordinances of God." - Prophet John Taylor, Times and Seasons, Vol.6, No.1, p.939

"A great portion of the oriental country has been preserved from the grossest idolatry, wickedness, confusion, bloodshed, murders, cruelty, and errors in religion that have overspread the rest of the world, under the name of Christianity, or mystery of iniquity. An open defiance of God is no mystery; open drunkenness, and revelling debauchery, and all manner of wickedness and immorality professed by sinners who profess to be nothing else, are no mystery; they do not deceive anybody; but when all manner of wickedness, idolatry, drunkenness, and corruption is cloaked under a sacred name, under an outward sanctity and holiness, and under as high and dignified an appellation as Christian, it is a mystery of iniquity; and that has overspread a great portion of the world, and has borne rule until the present day, sometimes under the name of Roman universality, sometimes under the name of the Greek Church, and at other times under various classes and names."

"Many that were honest have been deceived by this mystery of iniquity, who have esteemed things to be sacred, which were abominably corrupt; and corrupt superstitions have been revered because of the great names and sanctified professions that were attached to them. If such institutions actually professed wickedness, they would go for what they were worth; but when a thing professes to be holy, and takes the name of Christ as its founder, and the holy Prophets and Apostles, to carry out all manner of oppression, all manner of idolatry and idol worship, all manner of priestcraft and kingcraft, and more or less instigating division among nations and governments, all to carry out bloodshed, cruelty, the rack, the inquisition, and holding of men in bondage, ruling them with a red of iron, it is a mystery of iniquity calculated to deceive millions."

"But returning to the general corruption that has prevailed nationally, politically, and religiously, under the name of Christianity, leaving out Christ and his Apostles, I do think there has been no idolatry in the world, under any form or system, that could surpass it. It is the mystery of iniquity, the great whore of all the earth. It has brought the whole earth under a lasting curse, having departed from the laws of God, changed the ordinances, and broken the everlasting covenant, in consequence of which the earth is destined to be burned, and few men left." - Apostle Parley P. Pratt, Journal of Discourses, Vol. 3, p.41

"How long has this order of things existed, this dreadful apostacy, this class of people that pronounced themselves Zion, or Christians, without any of the characteristics of Zion? It has existed for some sixteen or seventeen centuries. It has spread itself and grown and gone into the four quarters of the earth. It is the great ecclesiastical power that is spoken of by the revelator John, and called by him the most corrupt and most wicked of all the powers of the earth, under the name of spiritual Babylon, or in other words Babel, which signifies confusion. This great and corrupt power is also represented by John as presenting a golden cup to the nations, full of all manner of filthiness and abominations."

"She is termed, in other places, by the same prophet, "The whore of all the earth," making the nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication. Some three centuries ago there came out sortie excellent men, named Martin Lather, John Calvin and many others that might be mentioned, who protested against the wickedness and abominations of the Church wherein they had been educated, and of which they had been members. Because of their protestations against the mother Church they were called Protestants. They pronounced her the whore of all the earth; they declared that she had no authority, that she had none of the blessings and gifts which characterized the ancient Christians. They came out and established other Churches... But among all these Churches where are the characteristics of Zion? We hunt for them in vain." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses Vol. 14, p.346

"Thrones shall be cast down, and the Ancient of Days shall sit, and the body of the fourth beast (or Babylon) shall be given to the devouring flame, and then shall the remnant of the heathen know that the Lord is God, for they shall see and hear of his judgments, which he shall execute upon the corrupt powers of the earth under the name of modern Christianity, scripturally called "Babylon the Great"—"The whore of all the earth," with whom the nations for centuries have committed fornication, and have drank out of her filthy cup. O Babylon! thou hast decked thyself with costly ornaments! Thou has clothed thyself with the most gaudy apparel! Thy seminaries of learning, and thy theological institutions have been multiplied far and wide. Thy priests are polished with all the refinements of a profound and extensive education. Thy costly and magnificent churches have been erected in great numbers throughout all thy borders. The merchants of the earth have made themselves rich through the abundance of thy luxuries.The learned—the great—the mighty—the kings of the earth, have glorified themselves in thy grand and superb palaces. Thou hast indeed enrobed thyself in the royal splendors of a queen. Thine external appearance has excited the admiration of all nations. But internally thou art rotten with the filth of thy whoredoms." - Apostle Orson Pratt, The Essential Orson Pratt, p.109

"The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church is the great corrupt ecclesiastic power, represented by great Babylon which has made all nations drunk with her wickedness, and she must fall, after she has been warned with the sound of the everlasting gospel. Her overthrow will be by a series of the most terrible judgments which will quickly succeed each other, and sweep over the nations where she has her dominion, and at last she will be utterly burned by fire, for thus hath the Lord spoken. Great, and fearful, and most terrible judgments are decreed upon these corrupt powers, the nations of modern Christendom; for strong is the Lord God who shall execute His fierce wrath upon them, and He will not cease until He has made a full end, and until their names be blotted out from under heaven." - Apostle Orson Pratt, Divine Authenticity of the Book of Mormon, p.84 - p.85

.

But you knew this beforehand.

[dangus]

What I can find on the internet is enough to convince me that the LDS Church doesn’t formally prescribe divorce. Given the behavioral demands on LDS members, it does seem like becoming a “mixed marriage” presents very severe difficulties, and that there are some attitudes that the ex-Mormon poses a greater mortal danger to the soul of the Mormon than a divorce would. While highly problematic, it seems asserting that Mormons must divorce apostate spouses would overstate the cultishness of Mormons.

I might add, however, that there would be far fewer rumors about Mormon practices and cultishness if the religion wasn’t occult, according to the classic definition of the word. Yes, that’s what occult means in the context of religion: having secret rituals.

[redpoll]

There’s a good answer to a question like this. It goes something like this - by their fruits you shall know them.

Frankly, I don’t care if there are people out there who believe that some guy in upstate New York had magic spectacles to view secret tablets. My church believes a guy was killed by a powerful empire and the local rabble and returned from the dead. Other people believe teachers have found a way to remove themselves from cause and effect, traveled to Jerusalem with angels and climbed a ladder to heaven, talked to God as a pillar of fire, think that the creator of the universe is asleep and we are his dream, all history is the battle between classes and economic inequality, all women are the pawns of an all-powerful male organization known as the patriarchy, God visited the next manifestation of His glory in a dank prison in Iran, a supernatural being will rise from a well to bring chaos... gee, the list could go on and on.

I like being a Christian. I don’t pretend that it would sound sensible to anyone who does not believe.

What are the fruits? I haven’t met many Mormons who are evil, cruel, or fanatical. I’ve met a few who were not the finest examples of humanity, but only a few. On the other hand, there are religions out there where women are treated like cattle and the founder calls for endless war in an effort to convert the world. There are ideologies out there which kill millions without batting an eye. I’ll go with the “know them by their fruits” standard.