Posted on 05/05/2008 1:25:08 PM PDT by sevenbak
I am just tickled pink that this thread was started by a Mormon. They can't say it was started to malign the Mormons, but the result is that many people who read this article will come away shocked at its teachings.
When Mormons cry when we point out that Mormons are a whole different religion than Christianity, we can just point to this thread and have them read what the LDS Church teaches and contrast it with what Christians believe.
We have so often been accused of MORMON BASHING for doing nothing more than questioning Mormons on whether they actually believe all this nonsense. How many Mormons have flatly denied the doctrine of Eternal Progression saying that such a "doctrine" was nothing more that the speculation of some of abberaant apostles and that it is NOT DOCTRINE?
How many times have we quoted Joseph Smith's sermons and writings on the nature of God only to be accused of Mormon Bashing?
How many times have we quoted Brigham Young only to be chastised for "living in the past"? How many times have we been called "DISHONABLE" by certain posters on these threads because we discovered the fraud that is Mormonism and left the Church?
For those who are unfamiliar with Mormon terminology "Dishonorable" is the term applied to "Sons of Perdition", who in Mormonism are the worst of the worst sinners and the only ones who will be thrown into Hell at the Judgment.
This thread should be an eyeopener to a lot of lurkers, and maybe even some Mormons who might honestly believe that these doctrines were never really taught by the Mormon Church. Well lurkers, it is taught by the Mormon Church. READ THIS ARTICLE and ask yourself IS MORMONISM CHRISTIAN?
As for the Revelations - Do not add or take away debate, it’s age old, as you say.
This past Conference, An Apostle of Jesus Christ addressed this very issue.
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/2011789/posts
Ok. I read the article. You’re right. Correct me where I’m wrong, but the article presents:
1. Polytheism. There are many, many gods. Millions. And the millions of mormon men alive today will become a god and get their own planet.
2. The god of earth was once a man on another planet who was a presumably a good Mormon.
3. Jesus was once a good earthly human/Mormon who has already attained godhood. Did he die twice?
It would follow that the original purpose of polygamy was to provide wives to populate the planet the eventual Mormon man will get.
Mormons are good people, but they’ve made a religion out of the original sin.
“What is “Revelations”
It is what people who espouse an unfinished canon believe.
:)
Can you confirm this for me? Is this what Mormons really believe, or partially believe?
1. Polytheism. There are many, many gods. Millions. And the millions of mormon men alive today will become a god and get their own planet.
2. The god of earth was once a man on another planet who was a presumably a good Mormon.
3. Jesus was once a good earthly human/Mormon who has already attained godhood.
Yes. All are their direct teachings or logical conclusions of what Mormonism teaches.
Mormons steer nonmormons toward BOM because it is relatively nonoffensive. Their other two major works are bizarre and grossly unbiblical. They don’t encourage much study of Pearl of Great Price nor Doctines and Covenants.
Suggest you get Walter Martin’s Kingdom of the Cults as a good source on all major cults in the U.S.-—If you don’t have it already.
Would be a lot better if there were some footnotes to support the author’s opinions.
This might help you understand our beliefs on the matter.
http://www.fairlds.org/Bible/Do_We_Have_the_Potential_to_become_Like_God.html
Fair enough. But I'd like to hear what an actual Mormon says about it.
Do they all believe this? Or just the higher ups? Or just a small percentage? Or does the average Mormon not know about it? Or is it distorted from their perspective?
What does the average Mormon really believe?
“The command Be ye perfect is not idealistic gas. Nor is it a command to do the impossible. He is going to make us into creatures that can obey that command. He said (in the Bible) that we were “gods” and He is going to make good His words. If we let Him-for we can prevent Him, if we choose-He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess, dazzling, radiant, immortal creature, pulsating all through with such energy and joy and wisdom and love as we cannot now imagine, a bright stainless mirror which reflects back to God perfectly (though, of course, on a smaller scale) His own boundless power and delight and goodness. The process will be long and in parts very painful; but that is what we are in for. Nothing less. He meant what He said.”
If C. S. Lewis can think of human beings as “possible gods and goddesses,” if he can maintain that “He will make the feeblest and filthiest of us into a god or goddess,” and if he is still to be considered a Christian-then how can the Latter-day Saints be excluded from the Christian family as rank pagans for believing exactly the same things? Just some food for thought.
In the second century Saint Irenaeus, the most important Christian theologian of his time, said much the same thing as Lorenzo Snow:
If the Word became a man,
It was so men may become gods.fn
Indeed, Saint Irenaeus had more than this to say on the subject of deification:
Do we cast blame on him [God] because we were not made gods from the beginning, but were at first created merely as men, and then later as gods? Although God has adopted this course out of his pure benevolence, that no one may charge him with discrimination or stinginess, he declares, “I have said, Ye are gods; and all of you are sons of the Most High.”... For it was necessary at first that nature be exhibited, then after that what was mortal would be conquered and swallowed up in immortality.fn
Also in the second century, Saint Clement of Alexandria wrote, “Yea, I say, the Word of God became a man so that you might learn from a man how to become a god”fn-almost a paraphrase of Lorenzo Snow's statement. Clement also said that “if one knows himself, he will know God, and knowing God will become like God .... His is beauty, true beauty, for it is God, and that man becomes a god, since God wills it. So Heraclitus was right when he said, ‘Men are gods, and gods are men.”fn
Still in the second century, Saint Justin Martyr insisted that in the beginning men “were made like God, free from suffering and death,” and that they are thus “deemed worthy of becoming gods and of having power to become sons of the highest.”fn
In the early fourth century Saint Athanasius-that tireless foe of heresy after whom the orthodox Athanasian Creed is named-also stated his belief in deification in terms very similar to those of Lorenzo Snow: “The Word was made flesh in order that we might be enabled to be made gods .... Just as the Lord, putting on the body, became a man, so also we men are both deified through his flesh, and henceforth inherit everlasting life.”fn On another occasion Athanasius stated, “He became man that we might be made divine”fn-yet another parallel to Lorenzo Snow's expression.
Finally, Saint Augustine himself, the greatest of the Christian Fathers, said: “But he himself that justifies also deifies, for by justifying he makes sons of God. ‘For he has given them power to become the sons of God’ [John 1:12]. If then we have been made sons of God, we have also been made gods.”fn
Notice that I am citing only unimpeachable Christian authorities here-no pagans, no Gnostics. All five of the above writers were not just Christians, and not just orthodox Christians -they were orthodox Christian saints. Three of the five wrote within a hundred years of the period of the Apostles, and all five believed in the doctrine of deification. This doctrine was a part of historical Christianity until relatively recent times, and it is still an important doctrine in some Eastern Orthodox churches. Those who accuse the Latter-day Saints of making up the doc- trine simply do not know the history of Christian doctrine. In one of the best works on Catholicism, Father Richard P. McBrien states that a fundamental principle of orthodoxy in the patristic period was to see “the history of the universe as the history of divinization and salvation.” As a result the Fathers concluded, according to McBrien, that “because the Spirit is truly God, we are truly divinized by the presence of the Spirit.”fn
In The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, which is not a Mormon publication, the following additional information can be found in the article titled, “Deification”:
Deification (Greek theosis) is for Orthodoxy the goal of every Christian. Man, according to the Bible, is ‘made in the image and likeness of God’.... It is possible for man to become like God, to become deified, to become god by grace. This doctrine is based on many passages of both OT and NT (e.g. Ps. 82 (81).6; 2 Pet. 1.4 and it is essentially the teaching both of St Paul, though he tends to use the language of filial adoption (cf. Rom. 8.9-17 Gal. 4.5-7 and the Fourth Gospel (cf. 17.21-23).
The language of II Peter is taken up by St Irenaeus, in his famous phrase, ‘if the Word has been made man, it is so that men may be made gods’ (Adv. Haer V, Pref.), and becomes the standard in Greek theology. In the fourth century St Athanasius repeats Irenaeus almost word for word, and in the fifth century St Cyril of Alexandria says that we shall become sons ‘by participation’ (Greek methexis). Deification is the central idea in the spirituality of St Maximus the Confessor, for whom the doctrine is the corollary of the Incarnation: ‘Deification, briefly, is the encompassing and fulfilment of all times and ages’,... and St Symeon the New Theologian at the end of the tenth century writes, ‘He who is God by nature converses with those whom he has made gods by grace, as a friend converses with his friends, face to face.’ ...
Finally, it should be noted that deification does not mean absorption into God, since the deified creature remains itself and distinct. It is the whole human being, body and soul, who is transfigured in the Spirit into the likeness of the divine nature, and deification is the goal of every Christian.fn
Whether the doctrine of deification is correct or incorrect, it was a part of mainstream Christian orthodoxy for centuries, though some modern Christians with a limited historical view may not be aware of it. If this doctrine became “the standard in Greek theology,” and if “deification is the goal of every Christian,” then the Latter-day Saints can't be banished from the Christian family for having the same theology and the same goal. If Saint Irenaeus, Saint Justin Martyr, Saint Clement of Alexandria, Saint Athanasius, Saint Cyril of Alexandria, Saint Maximus the Confessor, and Saint Symeon the New Theologian all believed that human beings can become gods, and if these good former-day saints are still to be counted as Christians, then the Latter-day Saints cannot be excluded from Christian circles for believing the same thing. In fact this doctrine is not pagan, nor is it foreign to the larger Christian tradition.fn Since it is found among the theologian/saints from Justin Martyr in the second century to Simeon the New Theologian in the eleventh century, Joseph Smith obviously did not make it up.
There is often much more to the history of Christianity and of Christian doctrine than just what seems familiar and comfortable to twentieth-century conservatives. Yet even among conservative Protestants the doctrine of deification is still occasionally found. Paul Crouch of the Trinity Broadcasting Network says: “I am a little god. I have His name. I am one with Him. I'm in covenant relation. I am a little god. Critics begone.”fn Robert Tilton, a Texas evangelist, says that man is “a God kind of creature. Originally you were designed to be as a god in this world. Man was designed or created by God to be the god of this world.”fn Kenneth Copeland, also of Texas, tells his listeners, “You don't have a god in you. You are one!”fn He writes that “man had total authority to rule as a god over every living creature on earth.”fn
Now, in fact, the Latter-day Saints would not agree with the doctrine of deification as understood by most of these evangelists, for in the LDS view we receive the full divine inheritance only through the atonement of Christ and only after a glorious resurrection. Closer to the Latter-day Saint understanding of the doctrine are the views expressed by C. S. Lewis, an individual whose genuine Christianity is virtually undisputed: “It is a serious thing to live in a society of possible gods and goddesses, to remember that the dullest and most uninteresting person you can talk to may one day be a creature which, if you[sa[w] it now, you would be strongly tempted to worship.fn
Elsewhere Lewis writes that the great promise of Christianity is that humans can share Christ's type of life (Greek zoe rather than bios) and thus can become sons and daughters of God. He explains:[”[Christ] came to this world and became a man in order to spread to other men the kind of life He has-by what I call ‘good infection.’ Every Christian is to become a little Christ.”fn In words reminiscent of those used by the Christian Fathers as well as Lorenzo Snow, Lewis succinctly states: “The Son of God became a man to enable men to become sons of God.”fn
Critics of the Latter-day Saints may respond that the early Christian saints, the later Greek theologians, and C. S. Lewis all understand the doctrine of deification differently than the Latter-day Saints do, but this is untrue in the case of the early Christians and C. S. Lewis. Anyway, such a response amounts to a quibble, for it retreats abjectly from the claim that deification is a pagan doctrine wholly foreign to true Christianity. It argues instead that deification is a Christian doctrine misunderstood by the Latter-day Saints (and abandoned by most others, I might add). But if that is true, then the doctrinal exclusion is no longer valid when based on this doctrine, for-whether the Latter-day Saints interpret it “correctly” or not-deification is not a doctrine they made up out of thin air or borrowed from ancient paganism, nor is it totally foreign and repugnant to true Christianity, nor does it violate the broad limits of what has historically been considered Christian.
It should be noted here that the LDS doctrine of deification is often misrepresented. Despite what our critics claim, the Latter-day Saints do not believe that human beings will ever become the equals of God, or be independent of God, or that they will ever cease to be subordinate to God. For Latter-day Saints, to become gods means to overcome the world through the atonement of Christ (1 Jn. 5:4-5; Rev. 2:7, 11). Thus we become heirs of God and joint-heirs with Christ (Rom. 8:17; Gal. 4:7) and will inherit all things just as Christ inherits all things (1 Cor. 3:21-23; Revelation 21:?). There are no limitations on these scriptural declarations; we shall inherit all things-including the power to create and to beget. In that glorified state we shall look like our Savior (1 Jn. 3:2; 1 Cor. 15:49; 2 Cor. 3:18) we shall receive his glory and be one with him and with the Father (John 17:21-23; Philip. 3:21). Sitting with God upon the throne of God, we shall rule over all things (Luke 12:44; Rev. 3:21 ).
Now, if the Christian scriptures teach that we will look like God, receive the inheritance of God, receive the glory of God, be one with God, sit upon the throne of God, and exercise the power and rule of God, then surely it cannot be un-Christian to conclude with C. S. Lewis and others that such beings as these can be called gods, as long as we remember that this use of the term gods does not in any way reduce or limit the sovereignty of God our Father. That is how the early Christians used the term; it is how C. S. Lewis used the term; and it is how the Latter-day Saints use the term and understand the doctrine.
President Snow often referred to this couplet as having been revealed to him by inspiration during the Nauvoo period of the Church. See, for example, Deseret Weekly 49 (3 November 1894): 610; Deseret Weekly 57 (8 October 1898): 513; Deseret News 52 (15 June 1901): 177; and Journal History of the Church, 20 July 1901, p. 4.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, bk. 5, pref.
Irenaeus, Against Heresies, 4.38. Cp. 4.11 (2): “But man receives progression and increase towards God. For as God is always the same, so also man, when found in God, shall always progress towards God.”
Clement of Alexandria, Exhortation to the Greeks, 1.
Clement of Alexandria, The Instructor, 3.1. See also Clement, Stro-mateis, 23.
Justin Martyr, Dialogue with Trypho, 124.
Athanasius, Against the Arians, 1.39, 3.34.
Athanasius, De Inc., 54.
Augustine, On the Psalms, 50.2. Augustine insists that such individuals are gods by grace rather than by nature, but they are gods nevertheless.
Richard P. McBrien, Catholicism, 2 vols. (Minneapolis: Winston Press, 1980), 1:146, 156; emphasis in original.
Symeon Lash, “Deification,” in The Westminster Dictionary of Christian Theology, ed. Alan Richardson and John Bowden (Philadelphia: Westminster Press, 1985), pp. 147-48.
For a longer treatment of this subject, see Jules Gross, La divinisa-tion du chrétien d’aprè les pères grecs (Paris: J. Gabalda, 1938).
Paul Crouch, “Praise the Lord,” Trinity Broadcasting Network, 7 July 1986.
Robert Tilton, God's Laws of Success (Dallas: Word of Faith, 1983), pp. 170-71.
Kenneth Copeland, The Force of Love (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland, n.d.), tape BCC-56.
Kenneth Copeland, The Power of the Tongue (Fort Worth: Kenneth Copeland, n.d.), p. 6. I am not arguing that these evangelists are mainline evangelicals (though they would insist that they are), only that they are Protestants with large Christian followings.
C. S. Lewis, The Weight of Glory and Other Addresses, rev. ed. (New York: Macmillan, Collier Books, 1980), p. 18.
C.S. Lewis, Mere Christianity (New York: Macmillan, 1952; Collier Books, 1960), p. 153. Cp. p. 164, where Lewis describes Christ as “finally, if all goes well, turning you permanently into a different sort of thing; into a new little Christ, a being which, in its own small way, has the same kind of life as God; which shares in His power, joy, knowledge and eternity.” See also C. S. Lewis, The Screwtape Letters, rev. ed. (New York: Macmillan, 1982), p. 38, where the tempter Screwtape complains that God intends to fill heaven with “little replicas of Himself.”
Lewis, Mere Christianity, p. 154.
Lewis, Mere Christianity, pp. 174-75. For a more recent example of the doctrine of deification in modern, non-LDS Christianity, see M. Scott Peck, The Road Less Traveled (New York: Simon and Schuster, 1978) pp. 269-70: “For no matter how much we may like to pussyfoot around it, all of us who postulate a loving God and really think about it even- tually come to a single terrifying idea: God wants us to become Himself (or Herself or Itself). We are growing toward godhood.”
Most critics are surprised to know how highly the thinking of C. S. Lewis is respected by Latter-day Saint readers.
See, for example, John Strugnell, The Angelic Liturgy at Qumran -4 Q Serek Sirot ‘Olat Hassabat in Supplements to Vetus Testamenturn VII [Congress Volume, Oxford 1959], (Leiden: Brill, 1960), pp. 336-38, or A. S. van der Woude, “Melchisedek als himmlische Erlösergestalt in den neuge-fundenen eschatologischen Midraschim aus Qumran Höhle XI,” Oudtestamentische Studiën 14 ( 1965): 354-73.
James S. Ackerman, “The Rabbinic Interpretation of Ps. 82 and the Gospel of John,” Harvard Theological Review 59 (April 1966): 186.
J. A. Emerton, “The Interpretation of Ps. 82 in John 10,” Journal of Theological Studies 11 (April 1960): 329, 332. This was also the view of Saint Augustine in writing of this passage in On the Psalms, 50.2: “It is evident, then, that he has called men ‘gods,’ who are deified by his grace” (cf. also 97.12).
Clement of Alexandria, Stromateis, 7.10.
The average Mormon knows little about the more radical teachings of his religion.
He thinks he is a Christian and his teachers do nothing to dissuade him from that belief.
The leaders of Mormonism are promiscuous in their writings and you will have no problems whatever in finding out what they teach. Start with the other two Standared Works. Martin, by the way, quotes their own writings. and makes appropriate attributions.
C. S. Lewis in no way espoused that we will attain Deity. The creature will ever be seperate from the (Note definite article) Creator. Regardless. It is not C.S. Lewis who speaks for Scripture, but Scripture which stands alone as the infallible inerrant Word of God.
OK, so you believe that Mormons will become gods, but the current God of this earth will always be greater. You will have children in the afterlife and the power to create (life? planets?). What about the rest:
1. Polytheism. There are many, many gods. Millions. And the millions of mormon men alive today will become a god and get their own planet and populate that planet.
2. The God of this earth was once a man on another planet who was a presumably a good Mormon.
3. Jesus was once a good earthly human/Mormon who has already attained godhood.
Thanks, this is interesting. I’ve had Mormon friends, but never knew what they believed.
Nevertheless, he understood better than most what it means to be a joint heir with Christ.
Augustine has no such teaching. The passage in your citation refers to human judges who have some of the same powers and decision-making authority as God. They are after all in his image. And the Sripture does not address the born-again by the grace of God, but unredeemed Jews.
Christian are the Tabernacles of deity, But are not deity themselves.
If you had a truer grasp on Christianity, you would better understand its apologists.
The natural man, however, receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God. (1 Cor. 2),
Joint heir with Christ is biblical.
All three of those questions are looking beyond the mark, and delving into the mysteries. There are no guarantees, and I for one can’t even keep my own house in order, let alone the things you mention. I have no grand thoughts for eternity, but rather relying on the mercies of Christ to return to the Father. All we can do is do as commanded, and strive to be ye perfect, even as our Father is perfect. It’s a long and hard road, but Christ is my salvation.
Yeah, that’s my tagline. Being a natural man is one who keeps not the commandments of God, and receives not of His spirit nor his understanding.
Thanks for the reminder.
So, you are saying you don't know whether Mormons are polytheist or not? Do you ever discuss it? Seems like a pretty fundamental thing to know about a religion.
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