Posted on 05/03/2008 4:38:34 PM PDT by NYer
From the Q linked site:
UFOs: The Best Documented Evidence of Government Cover-Up
You rock Q, tell us more about them UFO’s.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't think you meant the original UFO reference in a positive light, did you?
Mt. 5:22 would apply here, I believe.
I hate to pick nits, but I really need to state this with no small emphasis: It is not true that the Catholic Tradition is rejected, but only in part. Much, in fact, probably most, of the Catholic Tradition is embraced by Protestantism, either by inheritance, by parallel discovery, or by simple agreement.
This suggests an urgent need for clarity. What is 'rejection' or 'acceptance'? is there any increment, or is there only full compliance?
So, IOW, if "tradition" wasn't corrupted between the 1st and 4th centuries, why should we believe it would be corrupted after that?
We will find greater comity discussing the the first and second century, as the time of Constantine (c. 300-350 AD) leaves Protestants with suspicions bordering upon certainty. It is largely the power of empire that sparks our criticisms.
It must also be said that the sheer and overweening power of Rome, and the Roman Church, it's sole control over scribes and clerics, and it's nasty habit of crushing all dissent, leaves the Church in a position to alter extant texts from years before it's establishment. If the RCC was inclined toward nefarious purposes, it was certainly in a position to accomplish them.
In that sense, One can make a case against even the earliest works.
Generally speaking, all these facts point to the *equal* importance of tradition with regards to Scripture.
Equal in importance is fine- But *not* equal in authority.
Without Tradition (Jewish) [...] and without Tradition (Christian), we wouldn't have assurance [...].
Your point is recognized and well taken. I am glad you bought this up, because there are such interesting parallels.
I have to admit, this next bit is pure speculation, but one can draw fine points of comparison wrt clerical process between Hebrew and Christian clerics (scribes). One might assume that the Hebrew influences of the Early Church were sufficient to have an impact upon the preservation and duplication processing of documents.
One may then compare the two structured models quite favorably, finding an Hebrew influence there as well. The Hebrew model put forth an unchanging canon and an attached, malleable (can be added on to) tradition which seems to have been duplicated in the Christian model. One wonders what other parallels might be observed...
Of course, one must also visit the ultimate end of the Hebrew model- The Pharisees and Sadducees being berated by Christ because they held their traditions in such esteem that they had changed the nature and purpose of God's message. It is a caution, wouldn't you think?
So again, the "Prophets and the Word" could be both corrupted, if we reject the role of Tradition in preserving their true message, thus, any "self authentication" that one attempts invariably relies on the traditional preservation of the Scripture in question.
As to the purpose of the tradition (in either model) in providing for the preservation of the Scripture, that is well within it's function, and probably the primary reason for it's genesis and continued existence. Likewise, tradition, when used to magnify the Scripture, fulfills it's purpose and should be encouraged.
But it cannot be used to lend credence to concepts that are not well grounded in Scripture. Building a concept of whole cloth, or a meager assembly of cherry picked verses, defies the very purpose of the tradition, that having to be a magnification and up-lifting of the Holy Word of the Lord God Almighty. What silly words of men can possibly assume to stand on par with the Oracles of the Lord, not to mention add to their meaning? How preposterous!
At this point, I'm reminded of the formation of the Canon in the early centuries, specifically the fact that the book of Hebrews was, for a time, rejected by some of the early churches. Perhaps, at some point, Protestants will come to accept the deuterocanonicals as Scripture, the same way some early Churches came to accept Hebrews. ;)
I am afraid that this could not happen without finding an earlier source, as the main objection to the Apocryphal books is a matter of provenance. It is not hard to see that Hellenizing influences have corrupted the books. I am happy to use them as a source of knowledge, but to commit them to the canon in their present state seems to be incautious.
Suffice it to say though, that again, if one has no problem accepting the role of Tradition in preserving (and accurately transmitting) Scripture, I see no reason to reject any of the other dogmatically defined Traditions above. [(the Canon, the Trinity, Theotokos, the Assumption of Mary, etc.)]
That statement seems to be backward to me. The Tradition must serve the Scriptures, not the other way around. To wit: I see no reason to accept any dogma/doctrine that cannot be sufficiently proven upon the Word of God.
Now, as we all know, the word of mouth isn't as reliable as writing something down, *normally speaking*.
I have no reason to doubt oral traditions as defined in the ancient bardic sense. It is proven to be most reliable.
I believe it's reasonable to conclude that during the time of persecution (and relative disorganization of the Church, a period of about AD 100 to AD 300), that after any original documents were lost due to persecution, that the men of the Church kept a "record" of the Gospels and Epistles through word of mouth, that is, through teaching it to new converts, then they taught it to new ones, and so on. Then later, as the Church became more organized and was able to preserve some written history (AD 300-AD 350) the Gospels and Epistles that were committed to memory during all that time were finally written down.
While your position is reasonable, I would suggest that absence of evidence does not equate to evidence of absence. It is unlikely that the Gospels and Epistles (or in fact the entirety of the NT books by c. 100 AD) were not committed to text, as propriety would demand, regardless of circumstance. It is not hard for a band of believers to escape the clutches of the Empire, and my suspicion is that the clerics of the day would have done precisely that, putting the sacred texts beyond the reach of Rome, where the preservation could be completed in peace, in much the same way that RCC monasteries can be found in very remote places.
As an example of such, one might look along the shipping routes. A longstanding friendship with Phoenicia had established Hebrew outposts beyond Roman territory, or in far flung provinces where Rome's grasp was more tenuous. Carthage (the progeny of Pheonicia), the Iberian Peninsula of Spain, The Celtic regions of Western France, the Isle of Brittany, The British Isles, and even Holland. All of these had Hebrew, Carthaginian/Phoenician, or Grecian trading outposts in existence for centuries by the time of the Caesars.
One can also look to the northern land routes. Northward from Antioch into the eastern shore of the Black Sea, into the Caucus Mountains, northward by westward into Northern Europe, or eastward into the Caspian sea regions of Persia. Or perhaps southward to Egypt and Eastward into Ethiopia. There are plenty of places that monasteries could have risen, and then fallen, with documents still to be found.
I might add that a more likely scenario for the absence of early texts is in the ascension of the RCC to empire. The subjugation of the church by the See of Rome allowed Rome the legitimacy and authority to collect documents unto itself in the guise of preservation, or at least those documents that lay within it's territories. As I said before, if there were nefarious intentions, Rome had the ability to pull it off.
In conclusion, to me, this points to the role of Tradition in those times as of equal importance (if not arguably greater importance, although, to be clear, I'm not making that assertion, I conclude it was of equal importance) to Scripture.
Once again, importance is different than authority. Whether spoken, as you suppose, or written, it is the Oracles of God which must hold primacy in all things. They are the WORDS of GOD. What could be more important, or authoritative?
One can argue that this "tradition" became corrupted in later centuries, but the only way one could make such a claim would be to use, IMO, circular logic, i.e. point to Scripture and say, "That Tradition violates Scripture", when it was "that Tradition" that preserved Scripture in the first place
But, the purpose of the tradition is to magnify the Scripture, not to magnify itself.
Oops! Ping to #1923
HALE no!
Many manuscripts of the Hebrew Scriptures were destroyed with the First Temple, and many of the New Testament scrolls were destroyed by order of the Roman emperors during the Christian persecutions. The oldest known Hebrew manuscript, a copy of the Book of Isaiah written in the 2nd century BC, was found in 1947 in a cave near Jericho.
St. Jerome during the fourth century translated the Bible from the Greek Septuagint into Latin, because at that time most Christians spoke Latin. He used the Septuagint because it was based on the Alexandrian canon, which included the deuterocanonical books, rather than the Palestinian canon which was based on the original Hebrew manuscripts but did not include the deuterocanonicals. The original St. Jerome Bible was called the Vulgate. St. Jerome was the pre-eminent scholar of his day, and his source manuscripts were far better than anything we have today, and so the Church has always given it pride of place among the many translations.
In the fourth century AD, Pope St. Damasas asked St. Jerome, the finest scholar of his day, to gather all the manuscripts then still available and prepare an authoritative new translation in Latin, at that time the most widely spoken language among Christians. The resulting Bible has come to be called the Vulgate, or “People’s Bible.” cf
Ultimately, we have Christ's assurance (Matt. 16:18) that the gates of hell would not prevail against His church. Hence, the Catholic Church cannot commit error. Individual clergy may commit sins but the Church is Christ's bride (Ephesians 5:29) and and has "no spot, wrinkle or blemish" (Ephesians 5:27). We then accept the Bible on faith in the words of Jesus Christ.
Truth is - if people want to learn from those who claim to teach what they teach matters. UFO’s being taught as “authentic Christianity” is bizarre. Trutth is, and what Quix peddles is not.
In time the one sacrifice of our Lord on Calvary was completed on that one day but in God it is eternal, not just its application. In God there is no past or future, all time is but a moment. In John 8:58 our Lord said "before Abraham was, I AM." In God the time of the creation is now, the Flood of Noah is now, the birth of Abraham is now, the Exodus is now, the end of the world is now. In like manner the sacrifice on the Cross is an eternal now. Thus Hebrews 6:23-25 declares:
And the others indeed were made many priests, because by reason of death they were not suffered to continue: but this, for that he continueth for ever, hath an everlasting priesthood, whereby he is able also to save for ever them that come to God by him; always living to make intercession for us.An everlasting priesthood always making intercession with an everlasting sacrifice. In the Mass that one sacrifice is made present to us. This is not to be confused with the multiple sacrifices of the Temple. These were discreet and separate acts. The one sacrifice of our Lord upon the Cross and the celebration of the sacrifice of the Mass is but one and the same act. Thus the Catholic understanding of the Mass is not in conflict with Hebrews.
But I would like to return to the original topic of this thread. You claim that the Catholic understanding of the Mass is in conflict with Hebrews. If, for the sake of argument only, I were to admit this there is an important question that needs to be asked: how do we know that Hebrews should be considered a part of holy Scripture? Remember that there are many scholars who would dispute the Pauline authorship of Hebrews.
The TRUTH
is
That Quix does not peddle UFO’s in any sense, shape, or form.
Quix DOES encourage Christians to wake up and be prepared for the part UFO’s are going to play in the globalist conquest of the world in our lifetime.
Bearing false witness is not beautiful.
Thank you.
It is refreshing to have someone have some integrity and honesty about Quix and his UFO education efforts.
Some folks seem seriously interested in mutually respectful dialogue about complex topics
and others
do NOT.
Thanks.
I’ll try and get back to this.
Am troubled enough in my spirit I don’t think I could respond well to it.
bless you.
He is also a big bible code advocate..
So . . . have you readied the
Scarlet Letter
or
the Yellow armband or sleeve patch for me?
Where do you want me to report?
Nowhere.. you are a nice guy so I don’t want to get into an argument about what I think of some of your ideas.
Thanks thanks.
I think. LOL.
I see you as a generally nice guy, too.
Quix DOES encourage Christians to wake up and be prepared for the part UFO’s are going to play in the globalist conquest of the world in our lifetime.+
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I’d consider this sweetness . . .
But I’m not that delusional.
Oy vey. That can’t be right.
ROFLMAO
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