Posted on 04/09/2008 12:36:13 PM PDT by annalex
I Praise God that my actions hereon have, by His Grace, been to forcefully declare truth against hideous idolatry, error, blasphemy, power-mongering absurdities and the like.
Certain RELIGIOUS types didn’t think Christ was very loving, either.
I do appreciate your [probably unintended] tacit acknowledgement that a portion of RC’s and RC ACTIONS speak louder than their protestations that they don’t engage in idolatry, Maryolatry and the like.
Further, I wouldn't think of calling my dead friends for help.
>>I find it incredulous that Catholics actually have a theory on the subject, much less a doctrine.<<
The last four words of your post nail my position. And the rest of your post amplifies it.
Your entire post is a false AND DANGEROUS paradigm. It subtlely supports the concept of intentional ignorance and putting your interpretation of your personal experience with God in the hands of other men.
One does not need to read a bible to be saved, but to imply that it could be remotely superseded by the words of a “spiritual leader” either of your contemporaries or of post bible antiquity is to support the line of thinking that allows the likes of Mohammad, Jim Jones and Joseph Smith to be taken seriously.
“There is a way that seems right to a man but it’s end is death.”
Snap out of it! When a man and the bible disagree, the bible trumps EVERY time.
Wow, just wow.
Right down to the last sentence...
You absolutely nailed my feelings and beliefs here. You hit pretty much ALL of my hot buttons on this.
Well said.
>>Catholics do not pray to Mary or the Saints as a form of worship. Catholics pray to Mary and the Saints as a form of asking a trusted friend for assistance.<<
Youre second sentence is how it is explained to me by my wife (ex-catholic). And as Chuckles says, and I agree, that is not Christian, pure and simple. Just as Mormons say Jesus “mostly” died for your sins, this implies that going to Jesus through “a trusted friend for assistance” diminishes the personal relationship he wants to have with you.
If Jesus was your brother, and he, you and Mary were all walking the earth, do you seriously think it would help your cause to, instead of talking to Him directly, go to mom and ask her to present your case to him - after he has made it abundantly clear he wants a direct and personal relationship with you?
Would it not show unbelief in what he said? Would he, being a man, not feel slighted? Remembering that he was fully man, if you were him, wouldn’t you?
It appears, AlaninSA, many of us understand what Catholics mean by praying “to Mary” more than we thought we did. And it is the very thing you described above that we ARE saying is not Christian.
Christians do not put an intercessor between themself and Jesus - even Mary. It is, frankly, an insult to His promise.
Sure it does, as well as broader degrees of biological linkage.
Explain why there are thousands of protestant communities who disagree with each others scripture interpretations along all kinds of heresies that NO early Christian's believed until the reformation if the Bible trumps every time?
It is your OWN personal interpretations of the Bible that you believe trumps every time and it is THIS DANGEROUS paradigm that has produced Jim Jones, Joseph Smith and many others.This came out of the reformation and solo-scriptura,not Catholicism/Orthodoxy
I don't have that problem of confusion,I follow the teaching of an over 2000 year old church that the Bible came out of and I can read the writings of the early Church fathers along with Scripture typology with clear historical interpretations of those scriptures through the ages.
Rob Roy-””Snap out of it!””
You need to snap our of it,Dear Brother, The Catholic Church came before the Bible,not the other way around.
Here is the writings from 2 Saints who were DIRECT DISIPLES of the Apostle Saint John
“See that ye all follow the bishop, even as Christ Jesus does the Father, and the presbytery as ye would the apostles. Do ye also reverence the deacons, as those that carry out the appointment of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church.” Ignatius of Antioch, Epistle to the Smyrneans, 8:2 (c. A.D. 110).
“[A]ll the people wondered that there should be such a difference between the unbelievers and the elect, of whom this most admirable Polycarp was one, having in our own times been an apostolic and prophetic teacher, and bishop of the Catholic Church which is in Smyrna. For every word that went out of his mouth either has been or shall yet be accomplished.” Martyrdom of Polycarp, 16:2 (A.D. 155).
>>Explain why there are thousands of protestant communities who disagree with each others scripture interpretations along all kinds of heresies that NO early Christian’s believed until the reformation if the Bible trumps every time?<<
That is a separate subject. It does bring up an interesting concept though:
One trial attorney became a Christian after reading the Gospels. He said one of the compelling reasons was due to his trial experience. He said when multiple witnesses were in collusion, their stories matche TOO precicely. However, when there was no collusion, but the witnesses were being honest, there would be interesting minor contradictions, but the stories main thread was not only the same but often they said the same thing in a different way that, on the surface seemed to contradict, but in fact were at the root just too people saying the same thing in very different ways.
He said that as he read the Gospels, with their minor “seeming” disagreements, that is exactly what it reminded him of.
I would be more concerned about a church that agreed on EVERYTHING than one that had minor disagreements on minor points.
You want to rely on extra-biblical writings of mere men, I can’t stop you of course. Heck, I really enjoy the writings of C. S. Lewis and others. They have challenged my understanding and interpretation of God’s word. But I still retain the God given right to disagree with some of their interpretations.
When I stand before God, I will stand Alone, with my Intercessor, Jesus, at His right hand. Mr Lewis, nor any of my pastors will be there.
Jesus did not give the Apostle's a book and say “here you guys follow it”
Oral Tradition came first!
Accept it!
>>You need to snap our of it,Dear Brother, The Catholic Church came before the Bible,not the other way around.<<
Yikes!
So run off and start another Church as in the spirit of the reformation. You're kidding yourself if you think that minor differences have not lead to more separation of Christian beliefs.
Do you actually think that Christ -who is truth would approve of all of these opposite beliefs over 2000 years of consistencies on Faith and Morals?
>>Do you actually think that Christ -who is truth would approve of all of these opposite beliefs over 2000 years of consistencies on Faith and Morals?<<
Seriously, I doubt if Christ would approve of most of the stuff in this thread and, truth be told, probably no small amount of my stuff.
But I do the best I can, attitudinally, spiritually and intellectually. I try to keep a tone of respect for all here even though I may not have a great deal of respect for what they say all the time.
>>So run off and start another Church as in the spirit of the reformation.<<
Ive visited my friend in Kentucky a few times. You aughta see all the “babdis” churches there. And the names!!! First Separate Baptist Church?!
Yeah we people muck it up pretty well. I separate Christianity from Religion. Religion (even the Catholic church) is ALL man made.
I love the sign I saw on one church above the exit door. You notice it as you walk out. It says: The Church has left the building!
>>So run off and start another Church as in the spirit of the reformation. You’re kidding yourself if you think that minor differences have not lead to more separation of Christian beliefs.<<
I think I am a realist in that area. The Church of Christ seems to believe that since the bible is silent on it, they consider it a sin to have musical instruments in church. They feel so strongly about it that when my friend (a former Christian church pastor - which is an offshoot of the Church of Christ, I kid you not) SHOOK THE DUST OFF THEIR FEET AT HIS DOORSTEP AS A TESTAMONY AGAINST HIM simply because he disagreed on that one point!!!
But I think it is even MORE dangerous to “toe the line in the name of conformity” even when you are hearing things that go absolutely contrary to your understanding of the bible. Nobody agrees with every single thing their church preaches, but when the disagreement is doctrinal, it is time to move on, as Luther did.
If Jesus was your brother, and he, you and Mary were all walking the earth, do you seriously think it would help your cause to, instead of talking to Him directly, go to mom and ask her to present your case to him - after he has made it abundantly clear he wants a direct and personal relationship with you?
Would it not show unbelief in what he said? Would he, being a man, not feel slighted? Remembering that he was fully man, if you were him, wouldn’t you?
It appears, AlaninSA, many of us understand what Catholics mean by praying “to Mary” more than we thought we did. And it is the very thing you described above that we ARE saying is not Christian.
ABSOLUTELY CORRECT, to the last word. Thanks tons.
By your measure ,I suppose that you must find it really amazing that Christianity was able to spread through extreme persecution without the fully canonized Bible for hundreds of years
Not at all. In fact it is extreme persecution that hones the edge of the Word.
The reality IS that God gave His Gospel orally first. The Apostles gave it to others orally first, who shared it with the community at large. This was written down and shared with the future communities. The Bible is not ever shown as something given to each individual of the community. If you want to understand how the early Church did things, you would know that they complied with the leaders of the community.Read Acts of the Apostles,God did not hand out scrolls to everyone
Very true, my FRiend, in every aspect. Even today the Gospel is brought to people by preaching and outreach. That is true.
But it is incorrect to imply that there is something wrong with the people owning the Word (if that is your intention). I know with every fiber of my heart that had it been possible to distribute the Word by written scrolls back in the day of the early evangelists, there is little doubt that they would have done so!
Approved, written Scripture is a certain tool and removes the lion's share of heresies. If one must resign oneself to working within the boundaries of the Holy Word, It becomes very difficult to promote extreme heresy.
The fact of the matter is that it was dreadfully impractical to give every believer the written Word back in their day. There was no means to do so. That is why what scripture they were able to produce was treated with such discipline and care.
Yet, because the Church had singular authority, because it controlled the dissemination of information, because it controlled the education of it's priests and clergy, and thereby controlled the information, translation of information, and interpretation of information, there exists the very real possibility that the monolithic hierarchy thereof could be mislead, could be turned, could be tempted to alter the basis of that information to further it's own ambitions, or in it's ignorance, promote heresy unknowingly.
Would one be amazed that a corporate structure, given fifteen hundred years of sole and monopolistic power, and having full control of it's destiny, with power over kings and countries, their armies and their peoples, might become corrupted by those who rise to the top of such a structure?
That was the accusation as leveled upon the Church by those attempting to reform her as well they should, as noted by the listed grievances they laid claim to.
The printing press put the Holy Word in the hands of God's people for the first time ever. Not only did it serve to expose the heresies and vanities of the Church, but it also served to meter the influence of the Church, Roman, Reformed, or otherwise, in matters of authority, dissemination, translation, and interpretation, changing forever the ability of any organized structure to have a sole and unfettered monopoly in such matters. That is GOOD.
At the same time, it has enabled the unlimited access of the people to the direct, and relatively unfiltered Word of the Living God. It has allowed devotion and seeking of Truth to move forward to the finest increment, and at the greatest speed, and all in the hands of those that God has meant the Word to get to in the very first place- Each and every single one of us.
No, my FRiend, while preaching and community still serve as the spear point of evangelism, It is the written Word of God which is, should be, and always and forever will be the very backbone of authority. Who can claim wisdom above those Words? who can lay claim above the claims of Holy Jehovah and His Christ?
Peace be with you.
WELL PUT.
THX.
Bumps for you, Old Reggie. This is the truth.
There's only one verse in the entire NT wherein TRADITION
IS REMOTELY positive.
Throughout the Gospels, Christ rails at
TRADITIONS OF MEN--EVEN THOSE ENSCONCED UNDER SOME SCRIPTURAL JURY-RIGGED, RATIONALIZED UMBRELLA
CHRIST RAILS AT MUCH MORE FIERCELY than is allowable hereon.
The RC edifice's magicsterical pile of stinking !!!!TRADITIONS!!!! and doctrines of men are just the sorts of layers of 'buffer' and 'burdens to bear' that Jesus railed at RELIGIOUS POLITICAL PONTIFICATORS against 2000 years ago.
CHRIST DIED TO REMOVE
all such from the spiritual lives of folks who authentically
TRUST IN GOD--AND GOD ALONE as the song goes.
HIS DEATH WAS ACCOMPANIED BY A RENDING OF THE VEIL IN THE TEMPLE.
And centuries of the RC magicstericals have been adding an ever thickening veil to replace it ever since. They just place it more than a little metaphorically on the face of the caraciture of the Magnificent Magical Earth-Mother Mary as an enticement for the millions of folks suffering a MOMMY/DADDY deficit of love as a very clever kind of seduction away from a focus
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